Looking for help/ideas on what is going on with my collie.

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The second pic still makes my blood run cold, she just wasn't there. I was calling and calling her and she was pressed up against the wall like this staring at nothing, I was getting no response from her. I ended up grabbing her collar and dragging her out which shook her out of it, was like some sort of trance she was in


Have you had her checked for Epilepsy?
 
When our dog started changing her behaviour from being a strong confident lady to one that shook with anxiety/fear when out on a walk for no obvious reason, I went to see a lady called Samantha Lindley at Broadleys vets in Stirling, she's a behaviourist and pain specialist who got to the bottom of her issues, which in her case was pain based, it turned out she had a poorly toe, bad teeth, spine and hip arthritis which once we sorted the first two and started a management programme for the second two has changed our dog into the confident old lady she is, what I'm waffling on saying is that without Sam we'd still have a sad, sore dog so I'd book in to see her if you can, I really hope you can get to the bottom of it............ If only they could talk.........
 
As others, things that sprang to mind were epilepsy/neurological issue/long term unresolved pain issue.

I had a female who had very weak nerves and she couldn't cope with the strength of what she was feeling, (excitement....fear...perceived pressure) but presented with slightly different symptoms, but mostly fear aggression, spinning, vocalising etc. She was always on edge/alert and could never really settle and was also exhausted as a result and never held weight. With her it was genetic, when I saw her mother she also span and screamed in her kennel.
 
My 18month old collie kept going on and off lame. Would suddenly just sit down, kick.out with his back legs when laying down, be very nervous when he did this and just stick close.....it got worse the more i worked him. Took him to the vets who examined him and although he felt okay at the time from my symptoms he wanted to xray. So booked in the next day and turns out he has mild hip dysplasia. I manage him on.three runs a week, two short walks and two days when we do "at home games" he does well on this and is its very damp and cold he has a warm coat and if needed pain killers.

something like that could be an option.

hope you get sorted.
xx
 
Hi,

Vet has suggested sticking with the calmer for a week or so just to see if it makes any difference, then regardless of whether it does or not we will start with blood tests, then x-ray, then neuro exams etc and rule things out one by one. I'm happy with that, and now I know there is a plan set in place I can relax a bit more about it.

She does seem a bit more chilled out on the calmer, she isn't as nervous as usual, but then again we haven't had anyone over to the house since she went on it so I can't really be certain. She is still barking at people wearing hoods/hats... but she's never liked those kind of monsters ;)
 
p87 said:
Hi,

Vet has suggested sticking with the calmer for a week or so just to see if it makes any difference, then regardless of whether it does or not we will start with blood tests, then x-ray, then neuro exams etc and rule things out one by one. I'm happy with that, and now I know there is a plan set in place I can relax a bit more about it.

She does seem a bit more chilled out on the calmer, she isn't as nervous as usual, but then again we haven't had anyone over to the house since she went on it so I can't really be certain. She is still barking at people wearing hoods/hats... but she's never liked those kind of monsters ;)
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That sounds like a very sensible way forward with this. Good luck and do keep us updated
 
To me sounds either like pancreatitis, luxating patella or both. #
Additionally I think you are probably being too domineering in your training-some collies cannot take having a 'master' and you need to coax her more than tell her everything is not allowed, make your body language and voice softer. I'd be going to a high quality vet for a second opinion and review from there.
 
I'm not 'domineering' in the slightest, dogs need discipline and leads to follow to ensure their place in the pack. I don't coax her because babying a collie is just asking for trouble, and unless you have physically seen me with my dog you can't comment on my tone of voice or body language!

Also, my vet is fantastic, but cheers for the input.
 
I sorry if this comes across as rude, I don't mean it to. I'm just working up the courage to tackle tescos:/ but I don't rate your vet at all if he thinks a calmer will sort out a dog that has been on and off lame and yelping in that amounts of pain.

When I told my vet about my collie being not right behind he wanted to X-ray straight away which turned up his hip dysphasia. I know different vets do different things but I would really push to just X-ray hips/spine.
Or you can also limit the amount of running time she has to see if that helps at all, if you see my previous post that's what I do with mine.
 
SlightlyChristmassy said:
I sorry if this comes across as rude, I don't mean it to. I'm just working up the courage to tackle tescos:/ but I don't rate your vet at all if he thinks a calmer will sort out a dog that has been on and off lame and yelping in that amounts of pain.

When I told my vet about my collie being not right behind he wanted to X-ray straight away which turned up his hip dysphasia. I know different vets do different things but I would really push to just X-ray hips/spine.
Or you can also limit the amount of running time she has to see if that helps at all, if you see my previous post that's what I do with mine.
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But her dog have several problems, which maybe or maybe not are related to each other. One of my suggestions was also that it could be a skeletal problem, but others on this thread have suggested that the problems sounds like it possibly could be signs of for example epilepsy or cancer. And if nothing else, p87's veterinarian have listened to her concerns, and instead of waiting 3 weeks to proceed with trying to look for other answers, they've now shortened the time to a week or so.

As I've understood p87's post/replies, the veterinarian have given the dog a physical exam, without her showing any signs of having a HD problem. In general I don't think that you can say for certain if a dog have a HD fault or not, based only on a physical exam, but I think that it at least can be used as an indication for whether or not it is where they should start looking for the cause of the problems. If I'm correct, I don't see anything wrong with p87's veterinarians choice of approach on trying to find the cause of the problem.
 
FinnishLapphund said:
But her dog have several problems, which maybe or maybe not are related to each other. One of my suggestions was also that it could be a skeletal problem, but others on this thread have suggested that the problems sounds like it possibly could be signs of for example epilepsy or cancer. And if nothing else, p87's veterinarian have listened to her concerns, and instead of waiting 3 weeks to proceed with trying to look for other answers, they've now shortened the time to a week or so.

As I've understood p87's post/replies, the veterinarian have given the dog a physical exam, without her showing any signs of having a HD problem. In general I don't think that you can say for certain if a dog have a HD fault or not, based only on a physical exam, but I think that it at least can be used as an indication for whether or not it is where they should start looking for the cause of the problems. If I'm correct, I don't see anything wrong with p87's veterinarians choice of approach on trying to find the cause of the problem.
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Me either, I think it is a thoroughly sensible approach. If for no other reason than it will help this dog immeasurably to cope with the investigative visits over the coming months.
 
I think you need to look at all avenues, it may be pain related but it may also be that she finds you/your personality over powering-some intelligent dogs can be so sensitive and your post reads a little bit like you are dominating the dog in your insistence that she must behave and know her place.

It is hard to write this without it sounding like a cricism but I have had this with one of my dogs and I really had to change the way I was/am around him as my whole demenour suffocates him, we did eventually end up doing very well in obedience and once he knew what was required he was/is amazing but getting to that point was so frustrating and I was for ever having to walk away take a deep breathe and re-thing how to teach him something as he would shut down and stop learning/trying if I pushed him too hard and the best thing I ever did for him was get a kennel so he does not have to live in the middle of the hub of a busy household-he hated any stress/bad feeling or raised voices-I have owned this dog since he was 9weeks old and he has always been protective of me and the kids in all situations.

I would be looking at pain/nuerological/brain tumours and spinal issues as well as the above.
 
SlightlyChristmassy said:
I sorry if this comes across as rude, I don't mean it to. I'm just working up the courage to tackle tescos:/ but I don't rate your vet at all if he thinks a calmer will sort out a dog that has been on and off lame and yelping in that amounts of pain.

When I told my vet about my collie being not right behind he wanted to X-ray straight away which turned up his hip dysphasia. I know different vets do different things but I would really push to just X-ray hips/spine.
Or you can also limit the amount of running time she has to see if that helps at all, if you see my previous post that's what I do with mine.
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Read through the whole thread. My main concern from day one is that this is an emotional 'in her head' sort of pain as a result from me stopping her from seeing the friends I previously mentioned, as it happened at the EXACT same time I stopped her seeing them. And no, before you say I should just back down and let her see them again - read through the whole thread properly to get a better understanding of what is going on before passing judgement.
The calmer HAS helped her, the vet and I are well aware that it not a magic cure and we are not going to keep her on a calmer for the rest of her life as an easy fix - we aren't idiots - but if it's helping her just now and will help her cope with all these investigations coming her way, then please do enlighten me, what is the problem?

twiggy2 said:
I think you need to look at all avenues, it may be pain related but it may also be that she finds you/your personality over powering-some intelligent dogs can be so sensitive and your post reads a little bit like you are dominating the dog in your insistence that she must behave and know her place.

It is hard to write this without it sounding like a cricism but I have had this with one of my dogs and I really had to change the way I was/am around him as my whole demenour suffocates him, we did eventually end up doing very well in obedience and once he knew what was required he was/is amazing but getting to that point was so frustrating and I was for ever having to walk away take a deep breathe and re-thing how to teach him something as he would shut down and stop learning/trying if I pushed him too hard and the best thing I ever did for him was get a kennel so he does not have to live in the middle of the hub of a busy household-he hated any stress/bad feeling or raised voices-I have owned this dog since he was 9weeks old and he has always been protective of me and the kids in all situations.

I would be looking at pain/nuerological/brain tumours and spinal issues as well as the above.
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If you read carefully through my first post you will see I mention her behaviour before all this started. She was impeccably trained - by me and me alone - and was a fantastic dog. Nothing has changed with me or the way I speak to her/train her/give her commands. She knows exactly what is required of her, she responds successfully to commands on the first ask. She doesn't get pushed too hard - she is my dog, only I know her limits.

Anyone else implying I am 'domineering' or essentially bullying the dog will be ignored. Not worth my time.
 
p87 said:
I'm not 'domineering' in the slightest, dogs need discipline and leads to follow to ensure their place in the pack. I don't coax her because babying a collie is just asking for trouble, and unless you have physically seen me with my dog you can't comment on my tone of voice or body language!

Also, my vet is fantastic, but cheers for the input.
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I have a friend with an entire male Collie. He gets 'babied' on a regular basis, but is still obedient and a very good natured dog. My two also get spoiled and baby talked, but there have been no issues because of it. They are allowed on the furniture, but will get off when told. They also respond well to other vocal commands. I honestly don't think that spoiling a dog is telling them it's okay to take over the house. In fact the more I read about the 'pack theory' being debunked the more I believe it after seeing what my two are like.

This was not meant to be a rude reply by the way.
 
Love_my_Lurcher said:
I have a friend with an entire male Collie. He gets 'babied' on a regular basis, but is still obedient and a very good natured dog. My two also get spoiled and baby talked, but there have been no issues because of it. They are allowed on the furniture, but will get off when told. They also respond well to other vocal commands. I honestly don't think that spoiling a dog is telling them it's okay to take over the house. In fact the more I read about the 'pack theory' being debunked the more I believe it after seeing what my two are like.

This was not meant to be a rude reply by the way.
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Not rude in the slightest, just your take on it from your own experience. But in my situation I have seen what being babied has done to my dog, hence why I put a stop to it. It was being spoilt and babied which caused her behaviour and training to go from impeccable to abysmal, and it's taken a year of retraining to get her back to the well behaved dog she was. All dogs are different.
 
X-rays would have been my very first ask with the lameness. Hips, elbows, spine etc. We all think we are good trainers, we all think our vets are the best, but I would never rule out a second opinion, a fresh pair of eyes always helps, even if it means travelling a bit farther and spending a bit more money (my last dog cost me thousands and he still died young, but he taught me a lot!!).

All dogs are indeed different, and all dogs mature at different rates, and their behaviours can change for a variety of reasons, mental, physical, genetic reasons, and we as the intelligent species should be flexible and not too proud enough to alter our treatment of training of said dogs if it for their long term benefit.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
p87,

A diagnosis by forum, especially this one, is rather pointless. Not always, but all so often the questions on here would be likely to elicit the response, "Are you sure that you should be keeping a dog?" I haven't read all the responses, but did I miss the ones about neutering, clicker training and keeping her in a cage? It seems to me that providing that your handling and training regimes were fair and just, then your insistence upon compliance wouldn't in any way explain your dog's apparent changes. Again though, neither diagnosis nor prognosis will be available.

However, and putting that on one side, it would seem to me, having read your posts that you have two problems and whilst one may have an effect on the other, they are generally separate, I suspect. I've recently cut back on my breeding ewes but until quite recently, and for several years, I had up to 1200 breeding ewes, and often had 5 or 6 collies at any one time.

The lameness could be just about anything, and if it's causing considerable pain, enough to have the dog call out, then the answer could either be a vet, or if it's a spinal misalignment, then a competent chiropractor may well put things back in to place. Spinal problems can often make one think that a dog is lame, when the problem lies in the spine. If a dog appears to be in pain as it lies down, or when it rises, then a spinal problem could well be and often is, the answer.

Every single collie that I've ever owned has had a bolt loose, in one form or another. That wont explain your dog's behaviour which is irrational, at best. There's no question that the simple disciplines of obedience and compliance wont prevent a dog from behaving in an irrational manner. Collies need, before all else, mental stimulation and they need "work". Work can be devised in many ways; Sheep would be ideal, but failing that, there are those dogs which take well to tracking, search and rescue, drug and bomb work (hardly practical for you perhaps!), anything which allows the dog to "think".

There is also the point that with your regime of discipline, which is no bad thing, those who you allowed to take her out, allowed her a freedom which perhaps you don't, and it's also possible that with their apparent lack of discipline and control that they opened up a new world to her, a freedom of choice, and that her apparent illogical and irrational behaviour is a reaction to being returned to a more structured existence.

Apart from having her skeletal make up checked, and perhaps trying to enrol her in something which will give her the outlet to express herself, I've run out of suggestions. Her reaction to your horses was one of a dog which was expressing it's natural herding instincts, as opposed to guarding, and as an experiment, do you have anyone with sheep, locally, who might take you both to sheep, and watch how she reacts? If you do, I suspect that you may well be surprised!

Good luck, what ever you decide to do.

Alec.
 
To be honest if I were you I would take the dog straight to a large animal hospital that can carry out a variety of exams. It sounds like a complicated place and it may be easier, faster and in the end cheaper, if she's in a place where she can just get an ortho, or neuro, or oncology or whatever consul as she evidence emerges from diagnostic exams.

The other very useful thing is to keep a diary of what happens. You sound like a very observant person and it may be that your observations of the changes in her behaviour may give the vets clues as to what is happening. If there is a behavioural component to her problems, your observations will be key in figuring out what is happening.
 
If you are going to have bloods done at some point worth ruling out thyroid issues? Not sure if collies are prone to it but it can have a whole host of symptoms
 
Alec Swan said:
do you have anyone with sheep, locally, who might take you both to sheep, and watch how she reacts? If you do, I suspect that you may well be surprised!

Good luck, what ever you decide to do.

Alec.
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She isn't bothered by sheep, she will have a look if a flock suddenly takes off, then she goes back to whatever she was doing. As a pup the herding instinct was very strong, she came from a long line of working dogs. Through good training she soon stopped chasing everything that moved.
 
I did read the whole thread, twice.

the thing that stood out fir me was the lameness/yelling out in pain. Its been a year and still nothing done about that. When my collie colapse on his back end and yelped him.pain he was straight down vets and xrayed the day after.

my second is that your friends blew her mind, some collies can't take to many people dealing with them. 18 month collie is nervous. Sticks close to me and basically will not got off the lead with anyone else apart from my brother, sister or parent's or he will run back to us. He knows us and his boundaries with us. Add any more in and it blows his brain.
my other collie is very confident in himself and will go with others no problem.

the third is that she could be having fits, a blood test will determine that. My old cavi had fits and in one of them she laided down and weed all over. It was not nice.

i think you need yo focus on one part of her mix of problems and start there.
for me that would have been the lameness and yelping in pain.

that will be my last input as it will seen we will not agree.

i hope your girl.gets sorted. Its horrid seeing them so poorly.
 
It's not that I just haven't bothered getting the lameness checked out. When it first happened we couldn't find anything wrong, she was put on painkillers and it went away. It could have been anything. A year later it's starting up again which is why I'm now back to the vets. I'm not just going to put her back on pain killers and hope it goes away, there is clearly something wrong.

Alec I don't live on a farm, I don't have sheep, so I won't have a dog that chases. She stalks at bikes/joggers etc but one whistle is all it takes to bring her back to heel, where she stares them down from behind my legs. I'm not having her run off to chase anything that moves, of course she is trained not to! My old dog was caught by a farmer and chained up till I could go and retrieve her after she ran off chasing his sheep. He was well within his rights to shoot her, but didn't. Why would I want my dog to chase sheep? Or anything for that matter?
 
p87 said:
........ Why would I want my dog to chase sheep? Or anything for that matter?
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By the sounds of things, you've taken on the wrong dog.

Pointers point, Labradors retrieve, Bloodhounds track, Spaniels hunt and Collies work sheep. For many, many generations these dogs have had their natural abilities encouraged to the point where many are born with a demonstrable and innate understanding of their role in life. Many Collies are born with what's called 'eye', and as yours, they will maintain eye contact. In the useful dog, that 'eye' is actually recognised by sheep, and gives the dog a power over them, and 'power' is the word which is used by handlers. 'Power' has nothing to do with the physical side of the dog, it's within the dog's psyche, and those of us who train sheepdogs seek out dogs such as yours!

The dog which behaves as yours around cyclists or people or cars or ducks, or anything which moves, is actually attempting to fulfil its natural role. If you are to deny the dog its inbuilt wish to 'think' about its role in life, then you will most likely end up with what you have, and what you have is a dog which is describing, perfectly, it's frustration. In the event that you have no interest in sheep dog training, then if you were to give the dog a similar role, then that would at least relieve the dog's frustration.

If it's your intention to attempt to undo the work of previous generations, then that's your choice. There is though, and as your'e finding out, a price to pay.

Alec.
 
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