Loss of use?

Queenbee

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I havent looked at the small print, dont have the ins documents handy....

He has massive behaviourable issues. He has now learnt that he can get out of everything by rearing (his way of saying no) they arent little rears neither, he's now sussed he can be clever and go verticle. He jumps the stable door, so is behind bars to keep him in, stresses whenever left on his own, box walks, and has now started windsucking both in the stable and when being ridden.

His new trick today was to bolt in heavy traffic along the main road, whilst locking his neck, meaning i had no way of stopping him.

He also dragged my sister twice and reared verticle above her head which is in no way acceptable.

My extremely experienced instructor has no idea what to do with him now, we have tried absolutely everything with him..... bullied him, been nice to him, given him what he wants.

I'm his 5th owner in 6 years, he is 7 this year

you and your extremely experienced instructor sound like numpties then, he was obviously sold as seen and you have let him behave like a plum, I quote...

He has now x, he has now y, today he... z' all seems pretty recent to me! It doesn't matter how many owners he has had, he has learnt and developed all this behaviour with you. NO you will not be able to write off your and your instructors incompetencies with an insurance claim!
 

be positive

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I find it hard to believe that with all his behavioural issues that you and your very experienced instructor have not considered it may be pain related. The horse is now shut in behind bars and must wonder what is going to happen next.

He bolted down the road today, this is not a "new trick" he has learnt, it is his way of shouting at you that he is very unhappy and needs some help.

If you do not want to do a full investigation at least consider turning him away for six months and seeing if he can learn to be a horse living out with others, it is often natures way that is the best way.
 

Puppy

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I'm pretty certain (from all insurance policies that I've known) that you can't claim LOU for behaviour problems, only if it is something veterinary.

This means that if you do decide to PTS then a PM to see if he has a brain tumour could be worth a try, but you would have to risk spending the money for it, so it's quite a risk. I guess that risk would have to be calculated against how much he is insured for, but it's so hard to be objective about these things when you care for the animal and have invested such emotional as well and money.

Sorry to hear you are going through this. I will keep my LOU horse as a field ornament for the rest of her days, even though she had to retire at 8, but I can also completely understand the risk of a dangerous horse, having been (*crucially* *accidentally*) kicked in the head myself by her when she was explosive from being on boxrest. Do take care.
 

Queenbee

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he was kept at the other end of a 5/6 stable block :(

he wasnt like this when i tried him, he was actually normal! but then it was the environment he was used to for a year.

when the transporter picked him up, he was brought out in a chiffney and the stable had bars up. none of this was mentioned nor did i see any of this when i tried him :(

i would love to not put him in a situation he cant cope with, he is like a stroppy child and has a no answer for a hell of a lot!

i adjusted his diet a few months after i got him, as he was being fed as a good doer, but stressed all the weight off! he is fed on hifi light, pony nuts, outshine (keeps the weight on) speedi beet and gastri aid. his pregressive bad behaviour started before the outshine was added, so i know its not that.

1 outshine should not be to to blame, it is not that type of feed.

What was the previous environment? If you want to help him, try to replicate it. For example: you have said (I think) that he is stabled a lot, get company and turn out if that is what he is used to, then phase out... slowly.

Be firmer, start with not riding, just focus on ground work and bonding. it seems to me the shift began with his move to a totally different environment, and whilst you on the one hand acknowledge that, you seem to not accommodate that, take him right back to day one, replicate what he had and work on something small, praise him and do it little and often. Do not create an argument that he can win (eg bolting) set him up to succeed in a task that you set him, and praise him for it. Even if for a few days it is something simple like backing away from the stable door for food, re establish respect and praise for it. It seems to me that this move has been a shell shock experience for him and you need to not just recognise this, you need to work with him on it in a sympathetic but by the sounds of it, dominant way.
 

SusieT

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Is he turned out? Have you tried a couple of different approaches (possibly going down alternative routes if normal ones fail? Not neccsarily as others will beat him but because you might need teaching about equine behaviour and that is normally the case when an owner cant get past the horse rearing)
It sounds to me reading the whole thread that this horse needs turned out-ideally ina herd situation in a large field. I'm guessing any turnout he has had is probably in a small field with a small number of companions? And probably not just left to be a horse but faffed about with?
How experienced are you OP? I don't think this is a PTS case, but a horse who needs to find the right owner and stop being treated by isolation. Build high fences if you think he will escape or put him somewhere with high hedges.
Get the vet out as a first port of call
 
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Puppy

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you and your extremely experienced instructor sound like numpties then, he was obviously sold as seen and you have let him behave like a plum, I quote...

He has now x, he has now y, today he... z' all seems pretty recent to me! It doesn't matter how many owners he has had, he has learnt and developed all this behaviour with you. NO you will not be able to write off your and your instructors incompetencies with an insurance claim!

If this behaviour IS down to a brain tumour then I think you are being incredibly unfair. :confused:

There are also other matters to consider - like a bad reaction to new/increase in a certain feed.

No one should be made to feel bad about not wanting to persevere with a horse that it outright dangerous. None of them are worth getting seriously injured for.
 

Orangehorse

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How long have you had him? Have you asked the previous owner to come and look at him, as they sold him as an all rounder?

I expect someone has mentioned ulcers ..................
 

Queenbee

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If this behaviour IS down to a brain tumour then I think you are being incredibly unfair. :confused:

There are also other matters to consider - like a bad reaction to new/increase in a certain feed.

No one should be made to feel bad about not wanting to persevere with a horse that it outright dangerous. None of them are worth getting seriously injured for.

FFS puppy... back in your cage:rolleyes:... I repeat... 'since we got him, the other day he started, he has recently xxx, we changed his environment completely!' Mind blow for any horse!

And no, if this horse has a brain tumour I won't feel bad, because the chances are weighed in the favour of the owner not handling the horse correctly and setting the horse up in the correct environment to succeed! Has the owner even spoken to the previous owners to get an idea into how things have gone so absolutely pear shaped... I doubt it!

Sounds to me like a horse that went from one life to another, complete shell shock and a lack of strength on the part of the owner. The horse has been allowed to get away with dangerous behaviour and is used to being a stress head now. Basics need to be taught again and the horse needs to be put into a more relaxing environment whilst this happens.

Relaxing environment does not mean pts

Furthermore, if OP pts on your advice and no physiological factors are found, will you feel bad?
 

Queenbee

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That's a bit over the top... :confused:



As this that...

Jeez... :rolleyes:

no, the first comment was 'tongue in cheek banter, the second was no different than your comment to me, just the flip side, if you have a problem with it, i apologise, but I am completely able to back up my stand point and stand by it.
 

SusieT

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IT's unlikely it has a brain tumour. Everyone kind of hopes the horse they can't handle turns out to have a reason like this behind it-unsuitable handling and environment (sounds like this horses problem + probably an unsuitable trainer judging by her talkinga bout his 'probably gypsy upbringing) are much more common.
Common things are common.
 

Tickles

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- vet
- turn out, with company
- new instructor, including for ground work
(and possibly an experienced sharer/paid rider/handler)
 

Rusty_GSY

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Has the owner even spoken to the previous owners to get an idea into how things have gone so absolutely pear shaped... I doubt it!

Sounds to me like a horse that went from one life to another, complete shell shock and a lack of strength on the part of the owner. The horse has been allowed to get away with dangerous behaviour and is used to being a stress head now. Basics need to be taught again and the horse needs to be put into a more relaxing environment whilst this happens.

QUOTE]

Thanks!

Obviously the previous owner wasnt willing to help out, being an "equine agent" she was more concerned i was going to send the horse back and ruin her "reputation"

I'll assume you mean i "let him get away with dangerous behaviour" by not pulling him over when he rears? or smashing him on the head to prevent it? Maybe i should hobble him so he can boxwalk, or pace in the field?

Please, I'm open to suggestions.

I apologise for the somewhat sarcastic reply, but I most certainly am not to blame for the behaviour when all i have done is try to stop him injuring himself and others around him
 

Holly Hocks

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Everyone has suggested the same thing - vet first to rule out any problems, then turn away for a few months in a herd situation. Please, if you can, try it.
My TB mare used to be extremely stressy - she would box walk, weave, be a general pain in the backside and when I moved her to her current yard and put her with a herd of about 6 she would go demented when one of the other horses left the field - despite there still being other horses out with her. My very experienced horse vet's advice was "Let her get on with it - she's not on her own, she'll learn to cope". And she did. It was difficult walking away from her as she was going frantic in the field, but it works - they do get used to it and they even learn to enjoy being out. My mare is still much happier with a few horses out with her, not just one other, but she very rarely weaves now, doesn't box walk (nice clean bed all the time), and in fact enjoys coming into her stable - it's an enjoyable experience now, with a big net when she comes in. She didn't come inside all summer - from about April, to the end of September. It's worked wonders. It's difficult to watch, but if there's a chance it will work, give it a try.
 

Queenbee

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Has the owner even spoken to the previous owners to get an idea into how things have gone so absolutely pear shaped... I doubt it!

Sounds to me like a horse that went from one life to another, complete shell shock and a lack of strength on the part of the owner. The horse has been allowed to get away with dangerous behaviour and is used to being a stress head now. Basics need to be taught again and the horse needs to be put into a more relaxing environment whilst this happens.

QUOTE]

Thanks!

Obviously the previous owner wasnt willing to help out, being an "equine agent" she was more concerned i was going to send the horse back and ruin her "reputation"
I don't see why that was 'obvious' it was a fair question I posed
I'll assume you mean i "let him get away with dangerous behaviour" by not pulling him over when he rears? or smashing him on the head to prevent it? Maybe i should hobble him so he can boxwalk, or pace in the field?

Please, I'm open to suggestions.

I apologise for the somewhat sarcastic reply, but I most certainly am not to blame for the behaviour when all i have done is try to stop him injuring himself and others around him

I think that is particularly funny, you appear to view taking a firm hand/ line as the above, no, that is not my stance or attitude towards handling obviously 'problematic horses, my mare box walked... she was never hobbled, she doesn't do it now, I never ever pulled her over when she reared, neither did I smash her on the head:rolleyes: She was a bag of nerves and unsure of how to behave having spent her first 7 years in a 30 strong herd environment, I was compassionate but also firm, I gave her leadership, boundaries and understanding. Funnily enough, that worked:rolleyes: That said, if your horse rears, use a chiffney, get instruction on 'how to use it' it acts as a great deterrent, improves control and safety, horses respect it, it is not unkind as it only comes into action when the behaviour is shown, when the horse behaves it does nothing. It is designed for use with rearers.

Unfortunately you say you are not to blame for his behaviour, are you then saying this is entirely down to the horse?

I can't be bothered to respond on here and to your PM so I will continue by saying:

I did give some constructive criticism and suggestions, It would appear to me that your instructor is perhaps not as 'extremely experienced' as suggested, I would look for another who comes highly reccomended for dealing with troubled horses. Your horse was sold as one thing and has now become another... these things happen and it is not the sellers fault. I once owned a mare for 3 years, in all that time she loaded like a dream... regularly, once sold she became a sod to load instantly, it took the new owner a good couple of years to get her loading well again, sometimes that is just the way it goes. It seems to me obvious that not only is this a horse who will push and test the barriers as most younger horses are want to do, it is also a horse that was happy in its previous living environment, and is not happy with its current, the inexperience that you admit to will not help, such horses need both firmness, experience, consistency and an understanding from their handler to get them over their hurdles. Just because he was sold as an allrounder, does not mean that he could cope with such an adjustment to his way of living, some horses just can't adapt easily, this does not stop them being allrounders. Any horse, allrounders, schoolmasters, eventers, youngstock and OAPs ALL have the potential... and the right to be pissy when such a change in their day to day life is thrust upon them, especially as they do not understand it and when they are not suitably guided by their owners/ handlers.

I would strongly suggest that you start with trying to replicate his old surroundings/ routine, contact the previous owners re this if you have not already. Give him a couple of weeks 'head space' to get used to this, get a decent instructor, who works with horses with issues and then start small. Start with easy tasks that you know he will be able to achieve and praise him for it.


I would say that you were probably sold an allrounder that was an allrounder, but there is no debate he is now a 'problem horse' that is not to say that he won't be the allrounder that you dreamed of and thought you'd purchased with a little bit of help. When you are getting nowhere fast... always, always, always seek a second opinion, someone with a different approach than your current instructor may well help you sort this. And remember, you can't take a square peg and expect it to fit a round hole, you have to slowly chisel bits away to make it fit, just as you have to help the horse adapt to any change in routine or living.


Finally not all approaches work with all horses, you may find that a different instructor will be better at helping you because she/he adopts a different method of approach to the horse, this may suit your horse better.

If you are at a complete loss, then look into sending the horse to a pro yard to be trained and sold from there, they will probably be able to iron out the kinks.

Edited to add:

Re box walking, deep litter the bed, ignore the box walking, ignore the horse when box walking, do not react to the horse in any way when he is displaying this behaviour, once everyone has gone home in the evening he will be fine, it is absolutely attention seeking, yes it is a nervous reaction but it is perpetuated by humans, box walking = fuss/attention, so I will continue to box walk. Ebony hardly ever does it nowadays, she can be found lying down out cold most nights catching her zzzz's

I would also consider a good calmer to add to the feed, something to take the edge off, valerian is good for this, you can wean the horse off it as he starts to improve
 
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SusieT

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It would be a start-is it a tiny field or decent size? The idea is that a decent size field is going to give him far more stimulation. Let him live out. Bring him in twice daily for a feed (or out of the field to feed) and groom. See how his demeanour changes. I have to say I would also want to get a vet to have a look and see if there's an underlying cause as there often is. IF not at least you know in your mind he is fine. Obviously ensure fencing is secure etc. for turnout. Then get someone who is sensible and knows how to deal with horses( and no I don't mean beating them by that!), probably not the instructor you have as they don't sound to be giving good advice or that experienced. I am guessing as it is an island you are slightly limited?
 

Flame_

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Doesn't count-turn him out in a herd situation with a big field-not just an electric fenced bit of grass.

Great, then he can get kicked and be lame as well as dangerous. :rolleyes: ;) :D

OP, as already said you can't claim LOU on behavioral grounds. Puppy's right, none of them are worth persevering with if the chance of you getting seriously injured in the process is high. You've given him a fair chance, so have plenty of other people by the sound of things so if you passed him on he'd probably just be a liability to the next person, pts, save up a bit and buy a new horse that you can enjoy.
 

MeganLindsx

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My mare was completly the same and I felt exactly the same as you and posted on here 'loss of use because of behaviour'

I then got the vet out for a complete health check and after some much needed vet treatment she is now a completly different horse. She used to rear above our heads, strike out and kick while being handled and very bolshy and started to be like it in ridden work and now she hasn't done a single thing wrong.

I really would reccomend getting a vet out even though I know your probably at your wits end right now normally there is a valid reason...
 

angelish

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Great, then he can get kicked and be lame as well as dangerous. :rolleyes: ;) :D

OP, as already said you can't claim LOU on behavioral grounds. Puppy's right, none of them are worth persevering with if the chance of you getting seriously injured in the process is high. You've given him a fair chance, so have plenty of other people by the sound of things so if you passed him on he'd probably just be a liability to the next person, pts, save up a bit and buy a new horse that you can enjoy.

yea " that one's no good anymore" so will just shoot it and get another one as it isn't worth the risk of him getting kicked to try turning him out for a few months :(
 

luckyoldme

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im with the turn him out crowd here.. It sounds like the one thing you haven t tried but to be honest its the very first thing i would try. Let him be a horse for a while but use the time to get to know him and do a little grooming and ground work.
 

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Great, then he can get kicked and be lame as well as dangerous. :rolleyes: ;) :D

OP, as already said you can't claim LOU on behavioral grounds. Puppy's right, none of them are worth persevering with if the chance of you getting seriously injured in the process is high. You've given him a fair chance, so have plenty of other people by the sound of things so if you passed him on he'd probably just be a liability to the next person, pts, save up a bit and buy a new horse that you can enjoy.

I was told to get rid or PTS my girl when she was 7 and reared up and fell backwards on me on a concrete yard. 28 years later she's still with me. Still a character, but she's taught me everything and I owe her nothing. I think this horse needs another chance. I gave mine one by turning her away for 3 months with 15 other horses. Didn't even bring her in in that time. Took us two weeks to catch her when we did eventually want to restart, but it worked.

ETA she's on the right in my sig with my son riding her last year. Makes me so proud of both of them!
 

Queenbee

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Great, then he can get kicked and be lame as well as dangerous. :rolleyes: ;) :D

OP, as already said you can't claim LOU on behavioral grounds. Puppy's right, none of them are worth persevering with if the chance of you getting seriously injured in the process is high. You've given him a fair chance, so have plenty of other people by the sound of things so if you passed him on he'd probably just be a liability to the next person, pts, save up a bit and buy a new horse that you can enjoy.
I am not a fluffy bunny brigade but just because a horses adjustment to an entirely different way of life has been mishandled and led to a confused and currently dangerous horse, does not mean that it should be PTS, what are you, the 'if its broke, don't bother fixing it brigade?' I am more the 'if you broke it, put the effort into fixing it brigade' :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

yea " that one's no good anymore" so will just shoot it and get another one as it isn't worth the risk of him getting kicked to try turning him out for a few months :(
On the bright side, if it gets kicked badly enough it could be written off as LOU then, so turn out is win win, a bit of a true life 'kill or be cured'

im with the turn him out crowd here.. It sounds like the one thing you haven t tried but to be honest its the very first thing i would try. Let him be a horse for a while but use the time to get to know him and do a little grooming and ground work.
hear hear
 
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