Lot's of standing martingales and a lovely bit of rolkur.

Maesfen said:
You should look at some of the old showjumping legends like Pat Smythe, Harvey Smith and the like back in the 50 and 60s; standing martingales were used many times then but they were fitted that they never interfered with a horse jumping.
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Lots of snaffles and drop nosebands too (with cavessons for SM's, thought I'd add that in case it wasn't obvious - which it is) and double bridles, pelhams and kimblewicks.

I often wonder if back then horses were better trained, they were better riders, they just used what was available, or, if horses have become progressively more complicated to ride through the years.
 
Enfys said:
Lots of snaffles and drop nosebands too (with cavessons for SM's, thought I'd add that in case it wasn't obvious - which it is) and double bridles, pelhams and kimblewicks.

I often wonder if back then horses were better trained, they were better riders, they just used what was available, or, if horses have become progressively more complicated to ride through the years.
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I wonder that as well. Horses also managed with whichever saddle was around; none of this saddle fitting business.
I wonder if there's a connection with feeding as well; things used to be so simple in the past but modern feeds are so packed with this and that and SUGAR, that I'm sure this has had a knock-on effect on behaviour, soundness etc. My vet told me that she was seeing sooo many more cases of colic, lami, sweetitch, allergies, etc etc than when she first qualified.
 
i worked for a showjumper back in the day who jumped most of his horses without any martingales at all and allwere beautifully schooled and jumping at top level - oh, and no chin strap on his well worn hat etc. time changes and so do many things!
 
PapaFrita said:
I wonder that as well. Horses also managed with whichever saddle was around; none of this saddle fitting business.
I wonder if there's a connection with feeding as well; things used to be so simple in the past but modern feeds are so packed with this and that and SUGAR, that I'm sure this has had a knock-on effect on behaviour, soundness etc. My vet told me that she was seeing sooo many more cases of colic, lami, sweetitch, allergies, etc etc than when she first qualified.
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Saddles - Agree with you r there and we rarely used a numnah under them - I also think that they did not have such deep seats so it was actually easier to fit them than the modern deep seat heavily gusseted sadles we see today.

Feed - I firmly believe that the advent of processed feeds has really caused a massive increase in metabolic problems. I still feed straights and despite the number of horses I've had in my care (100's) hardly any have had problems.

Tack - was basic a single jointed snaffle, either a Fulmer or an eggbutt, I can remember when the 'German Hollowmouth' snaffle became popular. We used a cavesson noseband or if you used a Fulmer a drop. Tacking up was so easy!

Now everyone seems to use a breastplate, several layers of saddle blankets and numnahs, martingales and the latest fashion trend a Mexican noseband.

I love looking at some of the old pictures seeing how little tack the top jumpers used and the horses jumped just as well and youo rarely ever saw a horse refuse in the top level jumping
 
Tut tut norty PF, strapping AF's pretty head down forcibly, his jump is so obviously restricted by that horrid nasty gadget.

Really good pictures showing just what a standing martingale, correctly fitted does when jumping - absolutely bu99er all!

I think they are a great bit of kit, very easy for the horse to understand, no mixed signals and act on a fairly robust part of the anatomy (nose) rather than the sensitive mouth. My mare wears a standing martingale sometimes. Means that if she gets excited she doesn't take out my very expensive front teeth, if she behaves then it is a handy neckstrap and nothing more. Can't quite believe the number of people that pop up so regularly on this forum who haven't the first clue about standing martingales and think them somehow cruel. I'd far rather see horses ridden in a standing martingale than a running martingale, market harborough or harbridge or a flash or a dutch gag all of which are far more commonly seen.


*ETA: I am quite aware that all of those peices of kit have their place and I am not condeming a single bit of kit at all.
 
Paulag said:
And you a such a rude old cow it's laughable. And you see soooooo many bitless horses show jumping.

Are we having fun yet?
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Old at 26, wow :cool:

I'm not sure whether you are trying to be sarcastic about bitless horses showjumping, but yes, you do see a lot of horses in hackamores at jumping competitions- what is your point?

Your 'level playing field' is unlevel as soon as you mention horses have to wear a bit- that's what I was pointing out. And yes, I do think that's a laughable idea.
 
I never said that they were cruel. :p

My old instructor was a brilliant horsewoman and it was her opinion that they (standing martingales) could cause a problem if something went wrong when jumping.

I would like to be enlightened by the SM experts. :)

Was she wrong in her opinion and if so why?
Would you use one for cross country or only for showjumping?
 
Misty05 said:
If a correctly fitted standing martingale does not interfere with the horse in any way, why is it used? Just curious.
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That's not totally accurate, a correctly fitted standing martingale will not interfere with a horse ridden on the flat or jumping provided the horse does not chuck his head up in the air. A correctly fitted standing martingale will prevent the horse from raising his head so high that he is difficult for the rider to control. That is NOT to say that a correctly fitted standing martingale will tie the horse's head down, merely prevent it from being raised unacceptably high.
 
Misty05 said:
If a correctly fitted standing martingale does not interfere with the horse in any way, why is it used? Just curious.
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It's not that it doesn't interfere in any way, it's that it doesn't interfere with a horse when jumping if it is throwing the correct shape (as Papafrita's photo shows).

It will still interfere when the horse goes to put it's ears up your nose in between the fences but instead of pulling on the horse's mouth (like a running martingale) it acts on the nose and lots of horses react more positively to that.
 
I used to use a standing martingale on my mare, it was correctly fitted and did not strap her down in anyway. We still jumped at a high level so it seems she was capable of doing it with one on! I only used to use it to jump, not school, as well.
 
Paulag said:
And you a such a rude old cow it's laughable. And you see soooooo many bitless horses show jumping.

Are we having fun yet?
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You should get out more. Plenty of horses showjump and event (SJ phase), and to a very high level, in bitless bridles.

Geir_Gulliksen_on_L_Espoir_jpg.jpg

Geir Gulliksen and L'Espoir

TomHolder21.png

Becky Holder on Courageous Comet

And I'm pretty sure that Paul Schockemohle rode Deister, the World Champion, in a hackamore.
 
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Faracat said:
I never said that they were cruel. :p

My old instructor was a brilliant horsewoman and it was her opinion that they (standing martingales) could cause a problem if something went wrong when jumping.

I would like to be enlightened by the SM experts. :)

Was she wrong in her opinion and if so why?
Would you use one for cross country or only for showjumping?
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I'm no expert, and I'm no brilliant horsewoman either, but I think that the "never jump in a standing martingale" rule has come from two things. Firstly the risk of novices fitting them too short so that they do interfere with the horse's action and secondly the risk that in some very extreme circumstances the action of the martingale could prevent the horse from saving itself if something went wrong.

Personally I think it would have to go very drastically wrong for a horse to need to move its head in such a way that the martingale made a difference but I can see people would want to weigh the risks against the advantages and some might take the martingale off or switch to a running martingale for that reason. But I think over smaller unfixed fences the chances of a correctly fitted standing martingale causing a problem are tiny versus a fairly significant risk of things going wrong if the horse is chucking its head up beyond control. At a higher level over big fixed fences the risk benefit analysis is probably different and you might decide that you would rather bring the horse's head down using a different tool or that if the horse is that difficult perhaps xc isn't the job for it.
 
Maesfen said:
Don't forget one of the greatest showjumpers of all time, Eddie Macken and Boomerang, pretty sure they used a hackamore.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fionnbar/2369613004/
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That was who I was trying to think of when the comment was raised about bitless bridles and SJ. Until I went to the US I don't think I have ever seen them in real life anywhere other than in SJ.
 
Paulag said:
And you a such a rude old cow it's laughable. And you see soooooo many bitless horses show jumping.

Are we having fun yet?
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:( That's horrible. Personal insults are asking for the button pushers to come out, I think you should apologize.

You do see lots of bitless horses showjumping.

The reason I'm not really a fan of standing martingales is that the rider has no control over their effect once fitted, its between the gadget and the horse. I prefer things that you can always release should you need to from on board. I'm all for them, or anything, keeping people safe and making horses useful but I'll always avoid using one.
 
Misty05 said:
If a correctly fitted standing martingale does not interfere with the horse in any way, why is it used? Just curious.
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It's primary use is to prevent the horse smacking you in the face - not to keep the horses head down.

Correctly fitted it doesn't come into action until the head comes above the level of the withers (above the point of control)

Flame_ - thats the reason I like the standing martingale because it is activated only by the horse! If the horse choses to throw it's head up - it gets smacked on the nose by the martingale, it puts its head down again and the pressure instantly releases. With a running martingale the pressure is exerted on the sensitive mouth which the rider is also trying to use to control the pace/turn etc. If you have a sensitive mouthed horse the running aggrevates the reaction.
 
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Flame_ said:
:( That's horrible. Personal insults are asking for the button pushers to come out, I think you should apologize.
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It's alright the button pusher got me - my first time and everything. Although personally I find being called utterly ignorant far more defamatory. Calling someone this because they think people should use a mild bit and not strap their horse's nose down, and made a slightly flippant comment on the matter, seems a just a tad rude to me.
 
Flame_ said:
:( That's horrible. Personal insults are asking for the button pushers to come out, I think you should apologize.

You do see lots of bitless horses showjumping.
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Don't worry, I won't button push but I won't expect an apology either.
Just a bit bemused at why so horrid and personal but I suppose the internet is full of all sorts of people :)

edit- looks like someone got offended on my behalf and button pushed anyway!
 
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Dee O'Dorant said:
Oh well that's given me a jolly good laugh this morning. Someone who doesn't know what they are talking about starts up the outrage bandwagon and then a whole bunch of people rush to jump on it thus displaying their own ignorance.
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This is a little rude. :(

In my OP I never once mentioned that I had a problem with standing martingales. I stated that I was shocked that so many people were wearing them, when I hadn't seen one for years. As it was a local competition, mostly novices riding, most of the ones I saw were incorrectly fitted.

I also said I was disgusted with some peoples ways of 'strapping down' there horses (ie overbitting, tight martingales etc), about the woman using rolkur, that was just thoroughly uncalled for, and about the general standard of riding.

As a matter of fact, contrary to popular belief I DO actually know what I am talking about, but I'm glad that this has been amusing for you. :)

I apologise if my ramblings were unclear. :rolleyes:
 
I only use my standing martingale for hacking and re-enactment, so the only pictures I have of it are from the re-enactments. Probably not the best photos to use to defend tack use as there is a lot of leather work on his head, but it's basically just a cavesson bridle with a headcollar underneath and cross pieces over his face (to protect it). Anyway .....

My standing martingale in a fairly natural head position, showing no restriction at all:

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Next in a slightly higher head position, and again, no restriction:

CossackatGlynde2.jpg


And lastly, Hoss about to stick his ears up my nostrils and restriction:

CossackatGlynde3.jpg


Hope the pictures work! :o
 
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