Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[DressageCob]

On another point, I think it's outrageous that the World Cup finals are in Saudi. From an equine point of view, the climate there is extreme. Even in April you'd expect high 20s, low 30s, which for the majority of the equine competitors is very different to their normal conditions. I don't think the interests of the horses was particularly taken into account in choosing the venue.

I am also very disappointed from a human point of view. Dressage has long been known as being inclusive with regards sexuality. A number of top riders are gay and it's not a talking point. We don't have people feeling they have to hide their sexuality as they do in other sports, such as football. So why are we sending our inclusive sport to Saudi Arabia, a country known not only for its general human rights abuses but also its absolute persecution of homosexuality? People get executed for same-sex activity. I'm hoping our dressage riders boycott but money talks so I doubt that will happen...

 

[splashgirl45]

I much preferred that test. It didn't have knees everywhere, it was a much more of a workman type movement, although still very smart. The frame was more open and the overall impression more harmonious. It wasn't without its issues, but the overall picture I felt was more appealing.

I agree, horse looks much more comfortable and not chomping at the bit, I watched it without the music so I could be super critical and found it so much nicer to watch

 

[eahotson]

On another point, I think it's outrageous that the World Cup finals are in Saudi. From an equine point of view, the climate there is extreme. Even in April you'd expect high 20s, low 30s, which for the majority of the equine competitors is very different to their normal conditions. I don't think the interests of the horses was particularly taken into account in choosing the venue.

I am also very disappointed from a human point of view. Dressage has long been known as being inclusive with regards sexuality. A number of top riders are gay and it's not a talking point. We don't have people feeling they have to hide their sexuality as they do in other sports, such as football. So why are we sending our inclusive sport to Saudi Arabia, a country known not only for its general human rights abuses but also its absolute persecution of homosexuality? People get executed for same-sex activity. I'm hoping our dressage riders boycott but money talks so I doubt that will happen...

I take your point but maybe, hopefully,mixing like this may help to soften the Saudi opinion on gay rights rather than isolating them.The temperature is a real concern but maybe they will have airconditioned stable, arenas etc.

 

[SEL]

Second place was Isabell Werth and her test is here

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When you watch that you realise how flamboyant Everdale is (well his front legs!) - and how much that seems to be influencing the judge's marking.

 

[stormox]

When you watch that you realise how flamboyant Everdale is (well his front legs!) - and how much that seems to be influencing the judge's marking.

It was the same with Totilas

 

[Caol Ila]

Isabel's test was far more pleasant to watch. Her music was terrible, so I turned it off because I couldn't stand six minutes of that, but the pair looked more or less correct in most movements (does nobody sit for piaffe anymore?), harmonious, and relaxed. Horse was in a nice open frame.

He's not a showy mover like Everdale. Are the judges so wowed by flashy movement that they miss whole picture, or is it all just corrupt and they're pally with the Van Olsts?

 

[meleeka]

He's not a showy mover like Everdale. Are the judges are wowed by flashy movement and miss whole picture, or is it all just corrupt and they're pally with the Van Olsts?

It’s got to be one or the other hasn’t it?!

 

[eahotson]

Isabel's test was far more pleasant to watch. Her music was terrible, so I turned it off because I couldn't stand six minutes of that, but the pair looked more or less correct in most movements (does nobody sit for piaffe anymore?), harmonious, and relaxed. Horse was in a nice open frame.

He's not a showy mover like Everdale. Are the judges so wowed by flashy movement that they miss whole picture, or is it all just corrupt and they're pally with the Van Olsts?

Good question.

 

[splashgirl45]

When you compare Isabel’s trot half pass with Lotties , Everdale is much looser and crosses more so if you don’t look at his head position and tension the actual movement is carried out better , Everdales movement is going to be a mark above Isabel’s for most movements, but, for me, I prefer Isabel’s for the horses overall picture ..

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Isabel's test was far more pleasant to watch. Her music was terrible, so I turned it off because I couldn't stand six minutes of that, but the pair looked more or less correct in most movements (does nobody sit for piaffe anymore?), harmonious, and relaxed. Horse was in a nice open frame.

I thought the same re piaffe, and generally Werth's horses just aren't my "type" in how they're built, which I think can influence the piaffe, but they're still very nice horses. I'm not a huge IW fan, and yes, her choice in music usually leaves me feeling rather "meh" but that's a personal taste and I enjoyed watching her test more than Fry's test, and I noticed many solid correct movements.





I think dressage is like many other sports, but we have the animal component as I've mentioned before. What I mean by that is that we have our "favorite" or "preferred" riders and/or horses. It's like this in other sports too. People have favorite players or teams. Sometimes due to a national allegiance, sometimes not.

I think a lot of the criticism that dressage receives is fair, and sometimes there is some unfair criticism as well. Again, this is common in other sports too. I think that dressage has advanced in some positive ways, and there have been some positive rule changes too. There's still a ways to go, and I hope that the sport moves in a positive direction. It's difficult when animals are involved in a sport IMO and we have quite a few slippery slopes (some I'm fine with sliding down, tbh).

As for members that have left HHO, I just really don't care. I don't mean that in an unkind way, and I've left forums, chat groups, discussions and other pages before too. You do what's best for you, and I don't disagree with that. If you think it's best for you to leave, and decide to leave, then ok. There's not much for me to entertain there.

I do think some get uncomfortable with the criticisms, especially when it hits too close to home. If someone wants to slam whatever sport I participate in or am passionate about, they have the right to do so, to some extent. It's sort of up to me how I cope with or sort through that.

I haven't seen it get terribly ugly on here, but sometimes I also just walk away. I've gotten into "heated" dressage discussion on here before, and I've accepted that I just don't see eye to eye with some.

I don't agree with some of the training methods, tack used, breeding ethics, or horse care aspects of some HHO members, but hey ho, it is what it is. I could go on about it, but it'd likely fall on deaf ears, and many probably don't care about my opinions they are just that though; my opinions.

 

[eahotson]

I thought the same re piaffe, and generally Werth's horses just aren't my "type" in how they're built, which I think can influence the piaffe, but they're still very nice horses. I'm not a huge IW fan, and yes, her choice in music usually leaves me feeling rather "meh" but that's a personal taste and I enjoyed watching her test more than Fry's test, and I noticed many solid correct movements.





I think dressage is like many other sports, but we have the animal component as I've mentioned before. What I mean by that is that we have our "favorite" or "preferred" riders and/or horses. It's like this in other sports too. People have favorite players or teams. Sometimes due to a national allegiance, sometimes not.

I think a lot of the criticism that dressage receives is fair, and sometimes there is some unfair criticism as well. Again, this is common in other sports too. I think that dressage has advanced in some positive ways, and there have been some positive rule changes too. There's still a ways to go, and I hope that the sport moves in a positive direction. It's difficult when animals are involved in a sport IMO and we have quite a few slippery slopes (some I'm fine with sliding down, tbh).

As for members that have left HHO, I just really don't care. I don't mean that in an unkind way, and I've left forums, chat groups, discussions and other pages before too. You do what's best for you, and I don't disagree with that. If you think it's best for you to leave, and decide to leave, then ok. There's not much for me to entertain there.

I do think some get uncomfortable with the criticisms, especially when it hits too close to home. If someone wants to slam whatever sport I participate in or am passionate about, they have the right to do so, to some extent. It's sort of up to me how I cope with or sort through that.

I haven't seen it get terribly ugly on here, but sometimes I also just walk away. I've gotten into "heated" dressage discussion on here before, and I've accepted that I just don't see eye to eye with some.

I don't agree with some of the training methods, tack used, breeding ethics, or horse care aspects of some HHO members, but hey ho, it is what it is. I could go on about it, but it'd likely fall on deaf ears, and many probably don't care about my opinions they are just that though; my opinions.

Well said.

 

[tristars]

Second place was Isabell Werth and her test is here

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jesus is all i can say, [and not in a good way]

 

[humblepie]

UK trained racehorses go to Saudi to race, the Saudi Cup in particular is huge and in February so the management of sending a horse from here in winter to race there is established and they have GCT there I think.

 

[Burnerbee]

All animal welfare standards revolve around and are judged on whether or not animals have freedom to behave naturally. They were developed by the Farm Animal Welfare Council in 1965 (a while ago but animals are still the same). Many versions exist for different creatures, all based around the same fundamentals. Here they are, adapted for horses;

Five Freedoms for Horse Health and Welfare | MSD Animal Health HUB

There is an Animal Welfare Act within the UK that states all animals are entitled to a minimum level of care. It states and details five freedoms that all animals are entitled to. This article explores the five freedoms and how they relate to horses.

www.msd-animal-health-hub.co.uk

How many of these would a modern GP level dressage horse confirm he / she is benefitting from?

*getting in ahead of statements that horses aren’t farm animals, nowadays no they generally aren’t, but they wanted to be able to behave naturally then and they still do now I would argue

 

[Tiddlypom]

Some cross over from another thread, but Pammy Hutton has nailed it in her Horse and Hound column in today’s edition. Well worth a read of the whole column if you can access it.

H&H mag 1/2/24 p14

 

[TGM]

On another point, I think it's outrageous that the World Cup finals are in Saudi. From an equine point of view, the climate there is extreme. Even in April you'd expect high 20s, low 30s, which for the majority of the equine competitors is very different to their normal conditions. I don't think the interests of the horses was particularly taken into account in choosing the venue.

As humblepie rightly said, Global Champions use Riyadh as part of their SJ tour and go there in the autumn when the temperatures are similar to April. My daughter worked on the tour for a couple of years and said the horses coped really well with the heat in Riyadh and it wasn't a problem. Apparently it is quite dry heat which is easier for horses and humans than more humid conditions.

The human rights issue with Saudi is a whole different can of worms though ...

 

[shortstuff99]

I know a lot prefer the ride of Isabel Werth (even though she looks like she has a death grip on the reins).

Her associations maybe not so much

Isabell Werth Masterclass at Helgstrand USA: "As Much as Necessary, As Less as Possible"

It’s not a secret that I’m a total Isabell Werth’s fan and I had the chance to watch her one more time in a free Masterclass at the beautiful Windsome Farm of Helgstrand Dressage USA in Wellington, Florida, on 29 January 2024.

eurodressage.com

 

[Caol Ila]

I know a lot prefer the ride of Isabel Werth (even though she looks like she has a death grip on the reins).

Her associations maybe not so much

Isabell Werth Masterclass at Helgstrand USA: "As Much as Necessary, As Less as Possible"

It’s not a secret that I’m a total Isabell Werth’s fan and I had the chance to watch her one more time in a free Masterclass at the beautiful Windsome Farm of Helgstrand Dressage USA in Wellington, Florida, on 29 January 2024.

eurodressage.com

Yes, I saw all that on the COTH forum. Quite a good discussion on there, similar to here. Circling the wagons, eh?

I don't know what the Facebookerati are saying, but the conversations I've read on HHO and COTH have all been very measured. No one has said Lottie Fry is a terrible trainer who abuses her horses (Helgstrand, on the other hand......). But they are questioning Everdale's winning scores in that competition, wondering why a very tense, but extravagant mover gets the gold medal while less extravagant but more harmonious pairs recieve lower scores. What are judges rewarding? Should be they putting more weight on harmony and relaxation and less on 'reach?' and a fancy trot? I think the chats on the message boards have been quite fair.

We know judges do in fact reward correct and happy pairs. Dalera cleans up wherever she goes. And Valegro's success felt like an about face from the type of riding that had been winning big international competitions in the years before he came on the scene.

With these discussions, I feel like I've gone back in time to the early noughties when we were having these same conversations about Totilas, Anky's horses, Blu Hors Matinee, and so on.

How much is it all tied up with the oodles of money surrounding elite dressage horses? You can obviously buy extravagant movement. Good training takes time and a bit of luck.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I know a lot prefer the ride of Isabel Werth (even though she looks like she has a death grip on the reins).

Her associations maybe not so much

Isabell Werth Masterclass at Helgstrand USA: "As Much as Necessary, As Less as Possible"

It’s not a secret that I’m a total Isabell Werth’s fan and I had the chance to watch her one more time in a free Masterclass at the beautiful Windsome Farm of Helgstrand Dressage USA in Wellington, Florida, on 29 January 2024.

eurodressage.com

It's just that if I had to choose one of the rides, Fry's or Werth's, then I might choose the latter. Or piece together parts from both that were "good" and "bad." I'm no IW fan by any means. The Helgstrand association turns me off even more.

 

[Maddie Moo]

The FEI has provisionally suspended dressage rider Cesar Parra

The FEI has provisionally suspended a former Olympic rider as it investigates an “appalling and abhorrent training video”.

The footage shows a horse being hit twice on the neck or head while in ridden training, and a long whip being used with another horse on long lines.

Link

(Edit; just seen this was already posted on another thread)

 

[Caol Ila]

The FEI has provisionally suspended dressage rider Cesar Parra



Link

(Edit; just seen this was already posted on another thread)

Good. But also, when I was in the US and more in tune with their dressage scene, he wasn’t exactly known for his fluffy, caring training methods.

Better late than never!

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Was just about to post this but been beaten to it

Former Olympic rider suspended as ‘appalling’ training video investigated - Horse & Hound

The FEI has provisionally suspended a former Olympic rider as it investigates an “appalling and abhorrent training video”. The footage shows a horse being hit twice on the neck or head while in ridden training, and a long whip being used with another horse on long lines. The videos have since...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

But don't forget we aren't allowed to criticise his training methods etc if we are "only" happy hackers.... (Link to other thread!)

 

[UKa]

Really interesting I had to watch Lottie Fry’s test and it looks appalling. Last summer I watched some medium dressage at a local venue (I am nowhere attempting anything like it myself but I currently try everything to bring my youngster on using her own self carriage eventually as a basic aim) and what was concerning me was that the riders all looked really stiff and the horses pulled together at the front. but they had been told by someone on the way that this was ok and managed to progress to medium level.

 

[shortstuff99]

On the dressage judging topic, currently watching the grand prix from the GDF in Florida. Nice horse came in, did all the moves really relaxed, nice contact and nice neck. Only problem his paces were a bit ordinary and so everything scores 6.5. Horse came in tense as hell but flashy 7.5 for everything

 

[splashgirl45]

That’s the exact thing that makes me cross about the judging

 

[limestonelil]

That’s the exact thing that makes me cross about the judging

And another memory stirred. At local level there used to be a Fairlyn Gemini mare, she oozed presence and looked so beautiful she won everything, even though rider couldn't ride one side of her
(Slightly off topic but there is a parallel so no need to jump on me)ETA not meaning you splashgirl45

 

[tristars]

And another memory stirred. At local level there used to be a Fairlyn Gemini mare, she oozed presence and looked so beautiful she won everything, even though rider couldn't ride one side of her
(Slightly off topic but there is a parallel so no need to jump on me)ETA not meaning you splashgirl45

i remember Gemini, god he was gorgeous, and a A A, where are these type of horses nowadays

 

[Caol Ila]

On the dressage judging topic, currently watching the grand prix from the GDF in Florida. Nice horse came in, did all the moves really relaxed, nice contact and nice neck. Only problem his paces were a bit ordinary and so everything scores 6.5. Horse came in tense as hell but flashy 7.5 for everything

I think this is part of the underlying problem with dressage at the moment. The 'brilliance' of the gaits have become the most important thing affecting people's scores. It has been since I started showing dressage in the late 1990s/early 2000s, mind, but you noticed the flamboyant trots more at the top of the sport, after Totilas cleaned up everything, and everyone wanted a horse who moved like him. Like I said in a previous comment here, we all thought it had improved when Valegro was ascendant, and to some extent, it still has because Dalera wins, and she doesn't throw her front legs around. But the overall picture is that the extravagant movers still have an advantage over the more normal movers.

The same discussion is happening on COTH. I wrote this comment there:

This underlies some of the systemic problems we’re seeing. A sort of horsey arms race of bigger and bigger gaits with gazillions of dollars being invested into the breeding and selling of those horses. Perhaps to the detriment of the horses themselves, since horses aren’t really meant to move like that. You’re right of course in that all dressage training should improve the gaits of any horse as they become more powerful and better balanced, but human greed and ambition sadly knows no bounds. You’ll get people like Parra (and I bet there are more ) thinking they can get a leg up on the competition by taking methods from the TWH industry (those paragons of equine welfare) to make the gaits even more ‘spectacular.’ Because that’s what wins, and it keeps on winning.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think this is part of the underlying problem with dressage at the moment. The 'brilliance' of the gaits have become the most important thing affecting people's scores. It has been since I started showing dressage in the late 1990s/early 2000s, mind, but you noticed the flamboyant trots more at the top of the sport, after Totilas cleaned up everything, and everyone wanted a horse who moved like him. Like I said in a previous comment here, we all thought it had improved when Valegro was ascendant, and to some extent, it still has because Dalera wins, and she doesn't throw her front legs around. But the overall picture is that the extravagant movers still have an advantage over the more normal movers.

The same discussion is happening on COTH. I wrote this comment there:

This underlies some of the systemic problems we’re seeing. A sort of horsey arms race of bigger and bigger gaits with gazillions of dollars being invested into the breeding and selling of those horses. Perhaps to the detriment of the horses themselves, since horses aren’t really meant to move like that. You’re right of course in that all dressage training should improve the gaits of any horse as they become more powerful and better balanced, but human greed and ambition sadly knows no bounds. You’ll get people like Parra (and I bet there are more ) thinking they can get a leg up on the competition by taking methods from the TWH industry (those paragons of equine welfare) to make the gaits even more ‘spectacular.’ Because that’s what wins, and it keeps on winning.

Hit the nail on the head here!

 

[blitznbobs]

I think this is part of the underlying problem with dressage at the moment. The 'brilliance' of the gaits have become the most important thing affecting people's scores. It has been since I started showing dressage in the late 1990s/early 2000s, mind, but you noticed the flamboyant trots more at the top of the sport, after Totilas cleaned up everything, and everyone wanted a horse who moved like him. Like I said in a previous comment here, we all thought it had improved when Valegro was ascendant, and to some extent, it still has because Dalera wins, and she doesn't throw her front legs around. But the overall picture is that the extravagant movers still have an advantage over the more normal movers.

The same discussion is happening on COTH. I wrote this comment there:

This underlies some of the systemic problems we’re seeing. A sort of horsey arms race of bigger and bigger gaits with gazillions of dollars being invested into the breeding and selling of those horses. Perhaps to the detriment of the horses themselves, since horses aren’t really meant to move like that. You’re right of course in that all dressage training should improve the gaits of any horse as they become more powerful and better balanced, but human greed and ambition sadly knows no bounds. You’ll get people like Parra (and I bet there are more ) thinking they can get a leg up on the competition by taking methods from the TWH industry (those paragons of equine welfare) to make the gaits even more ‘spectacular.’ Because that’s what wins, and it keeps on winning.

Gio was hardly the most impressive for gaits but he got an Olympic bronze thru charlottes sheer determination