Lovely horse for sale

I'm not expert at all but something about the back end looks odd and I can't put my finger on it, although am no expert at all

Left hind toe looks turned out and back end looks almost separate?
 
Birker2020 said:
I know his hind limb conformation isn't brilliant but neither are most horses that are this type and that only comes with proper work.
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Conformation can be supported by the correct work, not corrected.

Not sure what you mean about horses of his type having poor conformation.

Either way, it’s not going to stay sound, and moves pretty shockingly.
 
ihatework said:
Duh .. he's underpriced if he is without medical or training issues.
And it's pretty flipping obvious there is at least one if not both of the above.
Therefore he is not underpriced. He is priced to sell for someone either too inexperienced to see it or as a gamble for someone aware what they might be taking on.
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Okay athough I'm pretty sure there is no need for the 'duh'.
I was simply asking a question, forgive me. I will go and crawl back into my hole again ...... :oops:

It's all about learning isn't it??
 
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AmyMay said:
Conformation can be supported by the correct work, not corrected.

Not sure what you mean about horses of his type having poor conformation.

Either way, it’s not going to stay sound, and moves pretty shockingly.
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I've sent you a PM to explain otherwise i am sure I will open myself up to a whole world of pain.... :)
 
Birker2020 said:
If we are talking about core and muscle then surely horses change shape with appropriate work, diet, etc. Day 1, Day 41, 9.5 months later
View attachment 141563
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We’re talking about the very boxy hind feet, and the angles down to them. Nothing about core or musculature, do you not see them?
 
ester said:
We’re talking about the very boxy hind feet, and the angles down to them. Nothing about core or musculature, do you not see them?
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Yes I did but its not a good photo and not clear with the feet being the same colour as the surface. And I did actually think you were speaking about the hind quarters with the photo otherwise you would surely have cropped the photo. My mistake.
 
Orangina said:
I am trying to educate myself more on conformation so would really appreciate a run down of everything you see here that doesn't look good.
I'm really quite bad even when looking at diagrams that have comparisons on them!

Editing to add, I have spotted what I think might be issues but not sure if I'm way off the mark at all
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No problem. Bearing in mind that a single photo can be deceptive, the problem is that neither his hocks nor his hind feet are under his backside, they are out behind it. If they can't be brought underneath him by training that will put an immense strain on his back. There's a big doubt about whether they can be brought underneath him by training because instead of having a nice clear angle at the hock, he's what is known as sickle hocked, with the hind leg bending to be curved like a sickle. Even if he brings his feet forward to stand on them properly instead of with the weight into his toes, it's unlikely then that his cannon bones would be upright, and that then places a huge strain on the hocks.

I hope that helps. Like GS, he is a horse I would swype past on the basis of that photo.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
But if it helps you learn and avoid mistakes when buying...learning can be painful ;)

There are too many red flags with this one, IMO.
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CanteringCarrot said:
But if it helps you learn and avoid mistakes when buying...learning can be painful ;)

There are too many red flags with this one, IMO.
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No because I sent A.M some photos of horses off HQ that if the people who own them see my remark won't take kindly and I could do without that kind of exposure. Anything for a quiet life and all that.
But what I was insinuating are that some people don't work their horses in the correct manner either to cut corner or because they don't know how to, or maybe they don't even think about how important it might be. I'm sure I used to be like this years ago but now I am more aware.

We all look back with the benefit of experience and understand more. As an example, I see photos of Bailey and shudder at how fat she was at times, yet I never thought she was at the time lol.

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Birker2020 said:
No because I sent A.M some photos of horses off HQ that if the people who own them see my remark won't take kindly and I could do without that kind of exposure. Anything for a quiet life and all that.
But what I was insinuating are that some people don't work their horses in the correct manner either to cut corner or because they don't know how to, or maybe they don't even think about how important it might be. I'm sure I used to be like this years ago but now I am more aware.
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Ok
 
I think you do need to go and see the beast when it comes to conformation. The only photo on the sale advert of my own horse seemed to show a boxy upright front hoof but she doesn't have a boxy upright hoof. He could be moving in this photo, who knows? While not ideal and he may only be a happy hack in time, I personally prefer upright to hyperextension.
 
I've had another look at the video's to see if I could see what others have mentioned above. It's interesting! and if I'm honest I didn't watch the videos to the end the first time.

the free schooling videos look like they are from when he was much younger. But he moves better in them.

He also moves much nicer in videos being ridden on a longer rein.

The video's of him jumping don't do him any favor's (IMHO) the rider isn't pushing him forwards, riding on a really short rein and looks to be in a very forward rigid braced position. I'm no expert but I suggest the rider has had a fright on this horse.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
This horse was for sale in February -that's enough of an alarm bell for me.
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Was it? That's surprising that I missed that. I created a tracker at one point for them all but if it was near to or over my budget and has since been reduced I'd not have picked up on it.
 

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ycbm said:
No problem. Bearing in mind that a single photo can be deceptive, the problem is that neither his hocks nor his hind feet are under his backside, they are out behind it. If they can't be brought underneath him by training that will put an immense strain on his back. There's a big doubt about whether they can be brought underneath him by training because instead of having a nice clear angle at the hock, he's what is known as sickle hocked, with the hind leg bending to be curved like a sickle. Even if he brings his feet forward to stand on them properly instead of with the weight into his toes, it's unlikely then that his cannon bones would be upright, and that then places a huge strain on the hocks.

I hope that helps. Like GS, he is a horse I would swype past on the basis of that photo.
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Thanks, that is really helpful. I did notice the where the hind legs were sitting so that is good but I am not the best at seeing if hocks are good or bad, do you just look at where and how straight the cannon bones are sitting to see how nice the hock is?
The other things I wanted to ask about were the angles of his quarters (sorry don't know quite how to describe it here), are they very shallow/flat? And the pasterns and the hoof nearest to us in the photo, almost looks a bit club like. (Not sure if you even get clubs on hinds, think I've only ever seen them on fronts!)
Thanks again for explaining, it is always good to learn more.
 
Orangina said:
Thanks, that is really helpful. I did notice the where the hind legs were sitting so that is good but I am not the best at seeing if hocks are good or bad, do you just look at where and how straight the cannon bones are sitting to see how nice the hock is?
The other things I wanted to ask about were the angles of his quarters (sorry don't know quite how to describe it here), are they very shallow/flat? And the pasterns and the hoof nearest to us in the photo, almost looks a bit club like. (Not sure if you even get clubs on hinds, think I've only ever seen them on fronts!)
Thanks again for explaining, it is always good to learn more.
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It's hard to see from a photo. Lari's hind fetlock looked puffy from his sales video still photo. But it wasn't when we viewed him it looked fine, but I still made a point of asking the vet to look at it on the vetting and he said it was fine.
 
Birker2020 said:
Was it? That's surprising that I missed that. I created a tracker at one point for them all but if it was near to or over my budget and has since been reduced I'd not have picked up on it.
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Yeah, he was advertised on Facebook back then. As someone that's on the circuit he'll have so many contacts it's even stranger to have a horse advertised for so long 🤔
 
The videos are now playing for me, I can see what others are saying now. That horse has most likely exploded more than once judging by the jumping video. I'd like to buy him just so he can hack out on a loose rein, he's quite bum high too. The last part of the first video, surely that's when he was a yearling/2 yo?
 
Orangina said:
Thanks, that is really helpful. I did notice the where the hind legs were sitting so that is good but I am not the best at seeing if hocks are good or bad, do you just look at where and how straight the cannon bones are sitting to see how nice the hock is?
The other things I wanted to ask about were the angles of his quarters (sorry don't know quite how to describe it here), are they very shallow/flat? And the pasterns and the hoof nearest to us in the photo, almost looks a bit club like. (Not sure if you even get clubs on hinds, think I've only ever seen them on fronts!)
Thanks again for explaining, it is always good to learn more.
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You never want the cannon bones anything but dead on verticle, and the feet under the bum so the leg is sat holding up the back end. Then you want a clear bend at the hock, because post-legged horses are very predisposed to suspensory ligament strains. Angles in the bum can be quite variable. I prefer flatter to a steep drop to the tail. Some warmbloods of the old fashioned type 20 -30 years back were dead flat in the pelvis.
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9tails said:
The videos are now playing for me, I can see what others are saying now. That horse has most likely exploded more than once judging by the jumping video. I'd like to buy him just so he can hack out on a loose rein, he's quite bum high too. The last part of the first video, surely that's when he was a yearling/2 yo?
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As far as you can see in what’s provided he’s level neither uphill or down hill but he’s moving croup high and that for me is a serious red flag .

maya2008 said:
Looks like there is an issue behind. He never pushes through properly and is under muscled in the quarters.
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Poor boy I hope he finds a great home where the job suits him but that would never be here .
 
I can't see the videos, but the still would be bad enough for me to pass on him given his history.
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LadyGascoyne said:
I think he’s a fairly priced for the horse he is - and still not that sellable unless the buyer had that money to burn.

He’s a very large, young horse of competition type, with all the fragilities of modern sports horse breeding. But he doesn’t have the potential to balance the risk with being a serious competition prospect.

His market will be for riders who want a big flashy moving warmblood but are riding at a lower level. They would then have to be competent enough to handle bringing on an inexperienced large, sporty horse, and all the complexity that goes with that. So the level of competence required to bring it on, doesn’t really match with the kind of rider who will be happy doing flat work and popping lower fences.

With these sports horse types where the conformation is iffy, it’s usually a case of it is likely to break but it is also likely to fly. In this case, it is likely to break but it definitely won’t fly. A hard sell, I’m afraid.
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I think this is a very valid point. There is a market for people who would chuck 10k at the horse, compete it in whatever discipline they could and take the gamble to see if it breaks.

These horses used to be a lot cheaper but as with everything - prices have gone mad.

The irony of horse buying is that you can (and I have) buy a horse that ticks every confirmation plus point perfection box, only to find it’s got a rare neuro issue and can’t be ridden anyway.
Whereas I’ve seen horses people buy and think wtf but they keep going with varying degrees of soundness depending on your ethical standpoint, for years.
 
Ceifer said:
I think this is a very valid point. There is a market for people who would chuck 10k at the horse, compete it in whatever discipline they could and take the gamble to see if it breaks.

These horses used to be a lot cheaper but as with everything - prices have gone mad.

The irony of horse buying is that you can (and I have) buy a horse that ticks every confirmation plus point perfection box, only to find it’s got a rare neuro issue and can’t be ridden anyway.
Whereas I’ve seen horses people buy and think wtf but they keep going with varying degrees of soundness depending on your ethical standpoint, for years.
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The not perfectly conformed horse still needs to be sound and without multiple red flags before you start though.

This poor horse has so many red flags I can see them from here.
 
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