cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Cortez if you don't go wide and low as the horse drops its head into long, deep and round, you can't maintain the line from mouth to elbow, it breaks upwards at the hands.
Low Hand Epidemic
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Moomin1
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I am afraid I've had a hard day at work Cortez, and my brain is a bit frazzled, so I cannot answer that one! But I know that it certainly without a doubt is helping my mare atm. Like I say, I will await to see whether it has any lasting improvement, as she/we are a work in progress still. But she is a million miles from how she was a few months ago.
ETA - when I talk of low and wide - I do not mean my hands are pinned to her shoulders/withers etc - I am talking soft elbows and hands allowing her to stretch forwards and down with very little interference from my hands. I couldn't honestly say why the wide hands have such a profound effect but they do - and there is certainly no 'forced' outline there - she is, for pretty much the first time ever, using her quarters and back completely and the feeling is fantastic.
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Pigeon
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cptrayes
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It's not about understanding of the bit for me, it's about freedom of the back on warm up and cool down. I have almost no contact the way I was taught to do it (by two different GP riders)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Ah, that would explain it; I wouldn't go LDR if you held a gun to my head. I WOULD follow the horse's head FORWARDS as he lowers and stretches, which does maintain the unbroken line from elbow to mouth. Isn't LDR the new, PC way of saying rollkuer?
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
See I'm finding exactly that too. When I use this method I barely have contact on the reins - she literally asks down herself into a contact - it's so soft and her trot is amazingly supple and springy when she does.
Moomin1
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I don't know about CPT, but I am certainly not talking about that - I actually do mean that I follow her head forwards and down when she asks? Confused.com. She certainly is FAR from rollkur!! :-O
Jenni_
Well-Known Member
I think deep and round with the neck high and pinned to the chest is basically the PC rollkur.... But I think a bit of length in the neck with a little roll for a second or two helps really lift the muscles in the back (not that I do it very much)
I just looked at different photos and tried to replicate it myself to a degree- pictured of a high neck and nose pinned to chest I just brought my chin to my neck- sore and stiff with no use of any other muscles. I then dropped my neck forward and put my chin nearer my chest.... I can feel muscles below my shoulders being stretched and used when I do that.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
A pic would be helpful here, because what I've been seeing isn't following at all; it's stuck like glue to the front of the saddle or sometimes to the front of the rider's thigh, and blocked by the stiff arm and wrist. Unless your elbows are bent there is no "elastic".
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Nothing like rolkur, what I'm doing. Though I did try that a couple of times to control some really challenging behaviour. It didn't work
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Oh god no -that's exactly what I was saying earlier - I call that the 'hauling' position!! What I mean is that my hands are forwards and towards her head as she asks down - so sort of the base of her neck - but not anywhere near her neck (that really doesn't help does it?!!Lol!).
I don't put pics of myself on here Cortez for personal reasons, so a bit difficult to explain really.
The position you talk of is abhorrent - I hate it and certainly encourages a false outline.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
That's what I was talking about when I started the thread. I think we all agree, it's just difficult when you have to use words to describe feelings.
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
True So, are we all agreeing that the low hands thing, with stiff arms and forward tipping riders is Not a Good Thing?
So, are we all agreeing that the low hands thing, with stiff arms and forward tipping riders is Not a Good Thing?Moomin1
Well-Known Member
True
Well I certainly agree - if what you mean is the 'hauling' hands where the hands are fixed to the withers, straight elbows, horse's mouth stretched back!
I suppose a better way of describing what I mean about low and wide that I use is hands well away from the wither/shoulder to either side, and forwards towards the horse's ears, allowing them to stretch down? If that makes more sense?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
True
I'm sure we are. And what's even worse is that several people from different parts of the country have said they know of trainers who are teaching their pupils to do it
brighthair
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I've found this photo (don't know if it helps!)
My hands look low and possibly fixed at first glance but when you look closer I have little contact, and I was asking her to stretch and take my hand forward at the end of the session
My hands look low and possibly fixed at first glance but when you look closer I have little contact, and I was asking her to stretch and take my hand forward at the end of the session
ester
Not slacking multitasking
This has got me pondering a bit! - older photo (santa claus took them) but hands here wider and lower than 'normal' - I wonder if other people are similar?
hands more 'normal'
ps they'll be lots of other things wrong but be nice to the novice with the pony
hands more 'normal'
ps they'll be lots of other things wrong but be nice to the novice with the pony
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I've found this photo (don't know if it helps!)
My hands look low and possibly fixed at first glance but when you look closer I have little contact, and I was asking her to stretch and take my hand forward at the end of the session
Did it work?
brighthair
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Yes. That photo is the stretch I wanted, her neck is loose and "wobbly" and she had no tension anywhere
Cortez
Tough but Fair
See, now, I could get all picky here and point out a few things, but I won't in the interests of world peace, etc.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
This has got me pondering a bit! - older photo (santa claus took them) but hands here wider and lower than 'normal' - I wonder if other people are similar?
hands more 'normal'
ps they'll be lots of other things wrong but be nice to the novice with the pony
I like the overall picture - looks pretty soft and rounded, not forced.
brighthair
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That's kind of the problem with photos I guess - its only ever a snapshot in time. Plus from the photo you aren't feeling what the rider is feeling
I only used the photo to demonstrate its not low wide and fixed hauling the horses head in. I am not a competent rider, I'm aware of that
I only used the photo to demonstrate its not low wide and fixed hauling the horses head in. I am not a competent rider, I'm aware of that
Cortez
Tough but Fair
No, no, wasn't your riding especially, that's not so bad from the look of it (but bending your elbows would be a game changer for you, I'll bet...........see, couldn't resist: sorry), but the horse doesn't look how you say she feels.........her nose is not going particularly forward (unless it was formerly on her chest) or down. This is why having "eyes on the ground" is vital when training, because the feel and the look don't always tally.
brighthair
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But for her that was a stretch - due to her build. Yes it could have been more, but I won't push for something that's hard for her when its a cool down if that makes sense? I just want swing over back, loose neck and a pootle round. If I'm really really pushing for low, it's hard work for her and that defeats the purpose of the cool down being an easy stretch (if that makes sense?)
She is not built to stretch in any way!
That was a lesson (I don't ride without someone on ground)
She is not built to stretch in any way!
That was a lesson (I don't ride without someone on ground)
3Beasties
Well-Known Member
I am a member of the low hands/tipping forward rider brigade but what can I say, I'm not perfect (far from it!) and know my faults that need working on. If that makes me a bad rider then so be it.
Threads like these do nothing for ones confidence....
Threads like these do nothing for ones confidence....
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
3 beasties none of us are perfect and your seat in the avatar looks very nice and so does your horse.. The question of the thread was whether it's simply a mistake or whether you were taught it.
Were you taught to ride that way, or is it like me - I look down constantly but noone ever taught me to do it, it's all my own work
?Brighthair and Ester - exactly, I know what you are both feeling in those pix. It's about relaxation, stretch and reward for warm up and cool down. For me, that's a correct use of low hands.
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3Beasties
Well-Known Member
Were you taught to ride that way, or is it like me - I look down constantly but noone ever taught me to do it, it's all my own work
Oh it's definitely 'me' rather than having been taught that way, I've not had all that many lessons considering how long I've been riding, I've mainly been self taught! I'm trying to find an instructor that will deal with 'me' and not just the horse!
These are more recent pics showing the bad hands/tipping etc, the avatar one was just a lucky snap of me sitting half way decent for once!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
You are SO hard on yourself. For the amount of 'proppa' riding you've done, you are doing really well. I hope that doesn't sound patronising. Cut yourself some slack
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Tnavas
Well-Known Member
yes, yes, yes!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
My horse enjoys a good stretch down, but when I ask, I move my hands forward, lengthen the rein, and she follows the contact down. My hands don't go below her withers.
As someone else has said, bad habits aren't being criticized but the practice of *teaching* what is viewed by many (including me) as incorrect is. I mean, my eyes are perpetually glued to my horse's ears and I have a terrible habit of drawing my heel up to my horse's arse when I ask for lateral movements. Been trying to fix that one for years.
Wherever your hands are, I think we all agree that the contact needs to be elastic and giving. The impression I get from people I know who are in riding schools is that this is not always made clear. The instructor may be shouting, "More contact" and the student increases the tension in the rein, but, being green, they also increase tension in their whole body so they are essentially driving with the handbrake on. The importance of *elasticity* and *softness* in the connection is not given precedence.
As someone else has said, bad habits aren't being criticized but the practice of *teaching* what is viewed by many (including me) as incorrect is. I mean, my eyes are perpetually glued to my horse's ears and I have a terrible habit of drawing my heel up to my horse's arse when I ask for lateral movements. Been trying to fix that one for years.
Wherever your hands are, I think we all agree that the contact needs to be elastic and giving. The impression I get from people I know who are in riding schools is that this is not always made clear. The instructor may be shouting, "More contact" and the student increases the tension in the rein, but, being green, they also increase tension in their whole body so they are essentially driving with the handbrake on. The importance of *elasticity* and *softness* in the connection is not given precedence.