Low Hand Epidemic

I think there are uses for low wide hands though, when I'm schooling properly and want him up into the contact I hold my hands up, but when I reward him after doing something well buy letting him stretch down I lower and open my hands wide and he really enjoys stretching his nose to the floor and relaxing ? :-)
 
castella said:
I think there are uses for low wide hands though, when I'm schooling properly and want him up into the contact I hold my hands up, but when I reward him after doing something well buy letting him stretch down I lower and open my hands wide and he really enjoys stretching his nose to the floor and relaxing ? :-)
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This isn't the same thing. I do that too, it gets the horse to stretch down and relax. What I am seeing everywhere is riders with one hand either side of the wither and usually touching the horse. It looks ugly to me and is biomechanically unsound because it removes the shock absorber of a swinging elbow joint.
 
I was given a very full explanation and demonstration of the reasons why the elbows should be bent to carry the arms and hands by one (classically trained) instructor and I could see the difference for myself when I was watching my daughter ride my horse. The minute she got everything right the horse completely changed, for the better!
 
I try to demonstrate why bent elbows are a good thing by holding one end of the reins, pretending I am a rider, while the student holds the other and pretends to be a horse. I ask them to move the reins back and forth, the way a horse might nod its head as it walks or canters. I have my elbows stiff at first and the student finds it difficult to move the reins. Then I bend my elbows and they find it a lot nicer. I tell them that if your elbows are straight and braced, it is physically impossible to have a soft, following contact.

I have one who gets utterly stressed and anxious because she hears this from me and then hears "lower your hands" from other people. Gah!
 
I tend to ride with little bend in my elbow as my hands are quite low. Not down the side of the neck by any means!

Mind you I haven't had a lesson in years and always tend to ride horses who snatch, so end up setting my arms and shoulders.

Time to book some lessons again and get my upper back fixed!
 
I've had a "discussion" with a couple of instructors (bhs qualified the lot!) about this. They just didn't understand what I was saying and insisted I shoved my hands out and down. Needless to say I don't let them teach me anymore...
These same horses snatch, run through the contact and go like giraffes, and they wonder why. I rode one of the new ones from my seat and she went nicely- relaxed her neck and back and softened; not in an outline but enough to start with.
The rest of them that had been there longer were kick pull lame donkeys :(

Incidentally what's the trend for having the bit fitted really high in the mouth? A couple of creases was what I was taught, but these are almost grinning, struggling to pull the bridle over the ears tight.
And hoiking the girth right up straight away- no wonder it bites you when you go to tack up!
 
cptrayes said:
This isn't the same thing. I do that too, it gets the horse to stretch down and relax. What I am seeing everywhere is riders with one hand either side of the wither and usually touching the horse. It looks ugly to me and is biomechanically unsound because it removes the shock absorber of a swinging elbow joint.
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Ah, that clears up what I was just thinking about. I'm currently being told to keep my reins low and wide as we're trying to encourage long and low stretchiness. But with soft elbows and hands, and working on my seat, so sounds like we are on the right track.
 
Orangehorse said:
I was given a very full explanation and demonstration of the reasons why the elbows should be bent to carry the arms and hands by one (classically trained) instructor and I could see the difference for myself when I was watching my daughter ride my horse. The minute she got everything right the horse completely changed, for the better!
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Ditto this at a recent Charles de Kunffy clinic I witnessed rider after rider entering and exiting with a much improved moving horse, all through their leg and hand position changes brought about by subtle but straight to the problem exercises. The man is a legend.
 
xloopylozzax said:
I've had a "discussion" with a couple of instructors (bhs qualified the lot!) about this. They just didn't understand what I was saying and insisted I shoved my hands out and down. Needless to say I don't let them teach me anymore...
These same horses snatch, run through the contact and go like giraffes, and they wonder why. I rode one of the new ones from my seat and she went nicely- relaxed her neck and back and softened; not in an outline but enough to start with.
The rest of them that had been there longer were kick pull lame donkeys :(

Incidentally what's the trend for having the bit fitted really high in the mouth? A couple of creases was what I was taught, but these are almost grinning, struggling to pull the bridle over the ears tight.
And hoiking the girth right up straight away- no wonder it bites you when you go to tack up!
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Oh yes, the grinning bit fit too, I hate that.

And short short dressage births. I keep laughing about people getting such great results from the extortionately expensive Fairfax girth. I'm betting the key fact is the instruction to buy a larger size than usual so that the buckles are close to the bottom of the flap - removing them from the elbow, and also removing the pinch between two bare girth straps on a ticklish bit of the horse.
 
Bernster said:
Ah, that clears up what I was just thinking about. I'm currently being told to keep my reins low and wide as we're trying to encourage long and low stretchiness. But with soft elbows and hands, and working on my seat, so sounds like we are on the right track.
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I call it the trampoline trot, and I've been doing it a lot recently due to a horse with kissing spines. I have my hands below the wither but nowhere near touching the horse, and with a soft squeezy contact most horses will readily drop into a low but rounded headcarriage with a very springy back. It's a great way to start and end a session.
 
b1ackhorse said:
I think looking at the bigger picture the epidemic of see sawing hands is much worst for a horse than holding your hands to low.
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I don't think it's worse; I think that both are appalling and indicative of just plain ignorant teaching. Who on earth is training people to teach this way? This kind of "contact" for want of a better word will NEVER produce a horse which understands and works with the rider's hand, not in a million years. Perhaps this explains why so many riders never progress, and horses look so unhappy?
 
b1ackhorse said:
I think looking at the bigger picture the epidemic of see sawing hands is much worst for a horse than holding your hands to low.
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Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting :)
 
YasandCrystal said:
It's sadly just this obsession that the horse is 'going in an outline' so the rider tries to yank the head and neck down. It's ridiculous and looks ridiculous and the number of dealers riders that do it is laughable, picture after picture.
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Absolutely agree Yasandcrystal. It seems to be a trend to crank the horses head in and in doing so creates a false outline. I hate to see it particularly on 4 and 5 year olds in dealers yards. A young horses neck is not strong enough to hold itself up at elementary level which is where most of them are placed. I also wonder if this is sometimes the cause of kissing spine as it pulls the whole top line in instead of long and low and lots of stretching to build up the top line muscles which takes time of course. People want the end result at the beginning.
 
cptrayes said:
Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting :)
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that comes across as incredibly rude! i doubt every picture of you is perfect CPT, and tbh the big pic of that avatar is lovely, relaxed, soft in back and neck and clear 3 beat canter (as much as i can tell from the small pic).
perhaps we should all post some vids of us riding and then we would be better placed to judge who actually know what they are talking about, i always like to see the product of peoples training methods, especially when they are so hyper critical of others.

regarding low hands, sustained low hands are not ideal, but as a short term thing, or even just as a moment in time, i dont think its the end of the world.

just as one example, i teach a really keen 12yo girl whose pony is ex JA jumper, originally went everywhere sideways, bouncing, ears in her eyes, snatching and leaping, wouldnt walk, would either piaffe, passage, jog sideways, canter on the spot or flat out gallop doing demented changes.
he is pretty much out of that as a defualt now, can w/t/c fairly steadily and has started some shoulder in/half pass work in walk and trot.
But, when he gets above the bit (and i mean vertical neck, not just a bit hollow) and tries to start leaping, we take the hand a little lower and wider to encourage him to drop down deep and relax his topline. As soon as he settles he then allows you to put your leg on and ride the neck out again.

there is no way that ignoring his head/neck/mouth and trying to ride him forward to a contact would have any effect at all once he's on one................if however i can get him a bit deeper, the adrenalin rush leaves him and i can gently ride forward and take the neck out.

granted he's very extreme in his reaction, but the security of a slightly lowered hand (akin to side reins), reminds him he can take the contact down and that vertical ping pong neck is not the only way to go.

i accept that *asking* the neck down from the front does not affect the back or hind leg until i can get my leg on him, but its absolutely impossible to get the hind leg first when the front end is so extremely hysterical!

he's completely changed shape in the last 2 years, from huge underneck, bulging shoulders and no butt, to a nice round topline, no under neck muscle and a big chunky bum. he looks even, instead of all up front and no muscle behind.

just an eg of how it isnt always a sin.
 
Daisy1905 said:
But I thought that's how you get the horse to keep its head down... ;)
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This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands. But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows. I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!
 
No one said it was always a sin Princess, and your example is a good one of when it clearly isn't.

What I am talking about is an epidemic of riders at Prelim riding the entire test with straight elbows and hands on either side of the horse's wither.

Regarding my own riding, I have never claimed to be perfect or anywhere near it and I do not put my own riding or my horses performance up as examples of good, or bad, riding on this forum.

On the other hand I have nothing to be ashamed of either. I was not lucky enough to be taught by an instructor like you, I was taught to ride out on half hour hacks, all my Dad could afford when I was fifteen. The instruction I was given was that I should always be able to see an inch of toe in front of my knee. Chair seat or what!!

It's taken me decades to learn to ride even as well as I do, and that includes knowing that it's not right to ride an entire dressage test with my arms as side reins.

I'm not sure why you chose to get so personal but I hope that explains things a little for you?
 
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cptrayes said:
No one said it was always a sin Princess, and your example is a good one of when it clearly isn't.

What I am talking about is an epidemic of riders at Prelim riding the entire test with straight elbows and hands on either side of the horse's wither.

Regarding my own riding, I have never claimed to be perfect or anywhere near it and I do not put my own riding or my horses performance up as examples of good, or bad, riding on this forum.

On the other hand I have nothing to be ashamed of either. I was not lucky enough to be taught by an instructor like you, I was taught to ride out on half hour hacks, all my Dad could afford when I was fifteen. The instruction I was given was that I should always be able to see an inch of toe in front of my knee. Chair seat or what!!

It's taken me decades to learn to ride even as well as I do, and that includes knowing that it's not right to ride an entire dressage test with my arms as side reins.

I'm not sure why you chose to get so personal but I hope that explains things a little for you?
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cptrayes, given that your training was limited and you seem to be talking about young riders doing Prelim tests don't you think that they may not have had either any more training than you did as a youngster or the decades that you have had to a) learn that there was a "right" way and b) learn to put it into practice?
 
Bernster said:
This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands. But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows. I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!
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My own way of thinking about it is that my hands should be still in relation to the horse's mouth which means if the head is moving, as it does, then your elbow needs to be able to swing in order to keep your hand 'still'.

Ferdi Eilberg explained the constant movement of the bit in the mouth to me with a very slight 'vibration' of the fingers. He says to do this all the time.

It's not that simple, of course, because there are times when the horse is moving its head in a way you don't want, when you don't want your hand to follow!

Still, if this was easy I wouldn't still be finding new things to learn after forty years :D
 
cptrayes said:
Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting :)
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CP that was mean!! I try my best, no need to stoop to that. Yes, i have low hands in my avatar but I am always trying to improve upon that. Thanks to PrincessSparkle for at least seeing what my avatar was at least trying to convey!
 
jemima*askin said:
cptrayes, given that your training was limited and you seem to be talking about young riders doing Prelim tests don't you think that they may not have had either any more training than you did as a youngster or the decades that you have had to a) learn that there was a "right" way and b) learn to put it into practice?
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Yes that occurred to me.


Which is why my very first question was are they being taught to ride this way. To which the answer appears to be yes.
 
b1ackhorse said:
CP that was mean!! I try my best, no need to stoop to that. Yes, i have low hands in my avatar but I am always trying to improve upon that. Thanks to PrincessSparkle for at least seeing what my avatar was at least trying to convey!
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I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.

Nice horse :)
 
cptrayes said:
Yes that occurred to me.


Which is why my very first question was are they being taught to ride this way. To which the answer appears to be yes.
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They are. Al's 19 now, and it wasn't until she started having lessons age 17 with her last instructor that the focus was entirely on her riding and especially her hands. That instructor moved away and Al moved on but her new instructor is cut from the same cloth (literally, lol!) and what Reg is doing matters far less than how Al is riding. Hey presto, Reg (and the others) go hugely better...

But she grooms for a family of young children at comps (aged 6-11) and they all saw with low hands because that's what they've been taught by a much sought after instructor...
 
cptrayes said:
I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.

Nice horse :)
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It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......
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Me and PS have the opposite problem. I keep my hands closed and set my upper arm, it makes the contact too static/hard. PS has very open hands and takes a very light contact, not always offering a consistent contact. We are both trying to find the middle ground, but hey, horses are a constant learning curve right?

In fact, there are videos of both of us riding on our fb page if anyone cares to take a look.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......
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You answer for other posters now Princess?

Plenty of videos of my riding on my blog, since you appear to mean me with your second paragraph too. Full of flaws and mostly ruined by my stage fright when being judged :)

And what is your issue with me here? Am I not allowed to comment on low hands because I don't ride as well as some other people? Are you suggesting that only people who ride perfectly themselves can ever spot a problem with other people's riding? Or that only those who ride perfectly are entitled to comment?

Now wouldn't that make for a boring forum :D
 
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