Low Hand Epidemic

more pondering, I think my reins are likely longer than normal so although my hands are lower my arms don't have to be completely straight??

fwiw Frank very much had to be taught to stretch at all (think stressy tight welsh ;) very much not the sort to! 'allow the horse to stretch' was not our idea of a fun trot movement in a test) and it was a different instructor to my normal who really managed to get him stretched but soft on top and managed to get me to 'feel' what a proper swing was. I can't remember what we did to start with exactly but I think it involved sitting light, very much pushing the back end forwards (lazy stressy welsh ;) ) and I can't remember what I did with the front end! So much for me retaining my learning!
 
Regardless of what pace or movement or position of the horses head, there should a straight line from the riders elbow, through the little finger to the bit, so that the forearm becomes one with the rein.

If the horses head goes down the riders hands become lower, if the horse raises its head up the hands come up to maintain at all times, the straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth!

A very old pic

CharlieCanter.jpg
 
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I would love love love one of you who seems to have grasped how to ride with a perfect contact to come and show me how, to make me understand. I carry my hands too low, they wiggle when they shouldn't, go tight when they shouldn't, and give too much when they shouldn't. I wasn't taught these things, but nor was I corrected either. 20 years of bad habits are hard to fix once you finally realise what it is you are doing wrong. I'm convinced im ruining my horse with my bad hands. The other day he was tensing up in the canter transition, backing up into me and pinning his ears. I got so fed up with myself I took his reins off his bit, tied them in a loop around his neck and rode a whole dressage test just holding onto that. He didn't pin his ears, his transitions were forwards and accurate and it was much more pleasing, pretty damning evidence that it's my hands that are the issue. I can't find an instructor to help me and whilst I know im rubbish I can't seem to fix it. 8(
 
Tnavas said:
Regardless of what pace or movement or position of the horses head, there should a straight line from the riders elbow, through the little finger to the bit, so that the forearm becomes one with the rein.

If the horses head goes down the riders hands become lower, if the horse raises its head up the hands come up to maintain at all times, the straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth!

A very old pic
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Hi Tnavas,
I have a Q for u. I have seen a lot of people from Australia and New Zealand riding with white helmet, but not here in the UK. Are white helmets popular over there???
:)
 
Tnavas said:
20 years ago when this pic was taken we had white or black helmets as a choice. It's only in the past 10 years or so we have had a bigger range to choose from
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I've never seen a 20 y/old photo from the UK where someone's wearing a white helmet though. It must be a regional fashion to some extent?

I think it looks pretty cool, fwiw, just curious :)
 
KatPT said:
I would love love love one of you who seems to have grasped how to ride with a perfect contact to come and show me how, to make me understand. (
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I explain the correct contact as being like holding a toddlers hand in a busy place. If they are pulling and trying to get away it it quite a strong contact, and if they are walking calmly by your side it is very soft and relaxed. If they try to get away again, it gets stronger.
Either way, you never pull or jerk, but equally you never totally let go. They have to know you are always there, holding their hand.

Hope this helps :)
 
The white helmets are partly a hot county thing but also standard in polocross, which is very popular and something a lot of people would have at least done a bit of in PC. So kind of fashion but from a practical source.

3beasties re your pics. In all 3 photos your elbow to mouth alignment is pretty good. The horse could be more 'up and out' - test pic is the best - but that's not just a case of picking the hand up, it's about riding the horse a bit more 'up' and tidying up a few small - and very common! - position slips. You could try pulling the TOPS of your shoulder blades towards each other - not pulling them back and down, which hollows the back - to correct your slouch (which is nothing on mine! :D) and thinking of touching the back of your neck to your collar. But the overall picture of your contact is soft and allowing (least so, maybe, in the second pic, where your elbow has come up and back) but but loose and wishy washy, which is important for a green horse. There is a lot to like! Don't get sucked into academic internet bickering ;) and take it personally. I guarantee you none of the players mean it that way. :)
 
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KatPT said:
I can't find an instructor to help me and whilst I know im rubbish I can't seem to fix it. 8(
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This is another post in itself... I think it's SO hard to find decent instructors. IME the stereotypical BHSAIs are awful and old fashioned in their views and teaching styles. I've been to a couple of SJers who actually I'd go back to, but only for the jumping and not for flatwork. I've been to someone who trains with a top British DR rider and rides at a reasonable level; that one was the worst of the lot. I watched that particular person make a 4yo horse's mouth bleed by sawing on it to "get its head down because it knows full well how to go on the bit", and work another horse in true rollkur (not just LDR) "to stop him spooking". After all of that I thought I'd try a more classical approach, where I was taught not to take up a contact, do everything on a loose rein so the horse "carries himself"(which was mostly slopping along on the forehand with a dipped back, looking back), and when we did progress to riding with a contact, I was told to use constant hand movements. No stillness or consistency at any point in the contact, constant "conversation" with the mouth, using the outside rein and inside rein continually for different things. It's no wonder we barely got out of walk, I couldn't coordinate all of the hand movements I was supposed to be making!

I'm not sure whether it's because a lot of trainers/ instructors actually don't know how to do these things properly themselves, or because they don't know how to communicate it, or because they think as a paying customer you want results immediately so use any method they can for a quick fix.

(FWIW, I now go to an eventer who is absolutely superb. I feel like I've finally found someone who makes it all make sense to me!)
 
Patterdale said:
I explain the correct contact as being like holding a toddlers hand in a busy place. If they are pulling and trying to get away it it quite a strong contact, and if they are walking calmly by your side it is very soft and relaxed. If they try to get away again, it gets stronger.
Either way, you never pull or jerk, but equally you never totally let go. They have to know you are always there, holding their hand.

Hope this helps :)
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This is how it has been explained to me recently (without the toddler analogy though). The hardest thing for me to learn (still learning) is to recognise early enough that second when the horse gives, so that I can give too. But I suppose that's feel that will come with experience.
 
Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around.

Let's say we're playing tug o' war (purists and pendants, look away now! :D). If I hold against you I do it with as much pressure as necessary, starting with my hand, moving up to using my core. If you REALLY set against me I might use some 'half halts' to release a bit of the tension. Then, all of a sudden, you give. If I then lean forward at that moment, what happens to you? Face plant or on your *** most likely. But if I absorb the give in the rope, stay stable in my own body, and just follow your movement I will be able to help you stay on your feet. If I'm braced against you, then when you give I'm going down too, either face first, or backwards, pulling you over too. (Remember, you can let the rein slip, the horse NEVER can.)

So when the horse gives, in that moment the balance is very fragile. If you move or throw the rein at the horse it will likely upset things. It's the HORSE giving that provides the release of pressure that acts as a reward. In fact this is hard to do and requires a lot of strength - it's very difficult to retain a soft, strong position through the horse resisting and then giving to the hand. Developing this stability is part of what top riders work out to achieve.

Good hands are an outgrowth of a stable base of support. As was said earlier, the first step is an independent hand not knowing what to 'do'.

It can be very useful to ask your instructor to hold the rein at the bit end and 'be the horse' not only to communicate the feel to you but also to find out how you feel to the horse.
 
TarrSteps said:
Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around.

Let's say we're playing tug o' war (purists and pendants, look away now! :D). If I hold against you I do it with as much pressure as necessary, starting with my hand, moving up to using my core. If you REALLY set against me I might use some 'half halts' to release a bit of the tension. Then, all of a sudden, you give. If I then lean forward at that moment, what happens to you? Face plant or on your *** most likely. But if I absorb the give in the rope, stay stable in my own body, and just follow your movement I will be able to help you stay on your feet. If I'm braced against you, then when you give I'm going down too, either face first, or backwards, pulling you over too. (Remember, you can let the rein slip, the horse NEVER can.)

So when the horse gives, in that moment the balance is very fragile. If you move or throw the rein at the horse it will likely upset things. It's the HORSE giving that provides the release of pressure that acts as a reward. In fact this is hard to do and requires a lot of strength - it's very difficult to retain a soft, strong position through the horse resisting and then giving to the hand. Developing this stability is part of what top riders work out to achieve.

Good hands are an outgrowth of a stable base of support. As was said earlier, the first step is an independent hand not knowing what to 'do'.

It can be very useful to ask your instructor to hold the rein at the bit end and 'be the horse' not only to communicate the feel to you but also to find out how you feel to the horse.
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This is an incredibly good post.
Those people that do what TS describes naturally would probably never think about it too much.
I for years haven't done that naturally, my default has always been a subtle G&R when the horse gives. I've had a couple of lightbulb moments recently and now am starting to get that true feel!! Still a long way to go though ;)
 
Great posts (unsurprisingly) from TarrSteps.

When I first learned to ride in the US, in the early 90s, everyone had white helmets. Now black or coloured plastic is all the rage.
 
TarrSteps said:
Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around.
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Yes, you are right and maybe "give" is the wrong word to use - I don't mean "give" as in the horse gives so I drop the contact. Although I do know I have a tendency to give the rein away when the horse softens. Once I've realised I have a fault, I then tend to go too far in the opposite direction trying to correct it. Am trying to find a happy medium! In all the years I'v been riding and had horses, the person who teaches me now is the first one who's really been able to actually start to explain/teach the concept of "contact". And yes, I agree about being stable/strong in your position. We're doing a lot of work on my position, becoming more stable and generally working on all of the stuff in your post TS! It's a constant learning curve and I am told that I'm improving, becoming more stable in both my body and the contact, so getting there I hope but no doubt still a VERY long way to! :)
 
JFTD said:
I've never seen a 20 y/old photo from the UK where someone's wearing a white helmet though. It must be a regional fashion to some extent?

I think it looks pretty cool, fwiw, just curious :)
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It was a time when NZ helmet safety for the general rider led the way, they had these when I first came to NZ in 87 when we in UK were still riding in our velvet hats. Skull caps for jockeys were the only extra strength.

The NZ helmets were quite heavy and I only resorted to one when I had my velvet re covered at great expense as the NZ sun is fierce and faded it.

Today I have a velvet that is also much heavier than my old one, but it looks better than the white ones.
 
I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased? :) It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts! :D
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased? :) It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts! :D
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I think that's my problem.. i'm so pleased that the horse softens that I forget to ride for a minute then have to start all over again ;) Seriously, trying to stay still, not interfere, not drop him on his head, not give the rein away but not taking/ pulling either, trying not to let my shoulders slouch (another bad habit of mine), trying to steer, keep moving forwards, then trying to remember to breathe through all of this. The more I learn about riding as I go alone, the more I realise how little I know and how much more there is to learn and the harder it all becomes! My coordination and feel aren't the best, I'm only a leisure rider but getting in plenty of lessons and plenty of practise to work on what I'm learning, and hopefully improving as I go along.
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased? :) It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts! :D
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Exactly, my RI talks about "moments" and gradually those moments get longer and longer which is very satisfying.
 
Cc, there are a lot of 'nots' in that paragraph! :D Language is very powerful so try to think of what you want in positives not negatives.

Don't believe me? Try not to think of cauliflower!


Bet that's all you can think of now! :D

Things like feel are at least partly a mental game. Most of the people I know with naturally good hands are on the mellow end of the spectrum and quite direct generally. This comes through in their communication with horses - they don't fuss but they don't take **** either. This is a completely attainable skill set but for many people requires adjustment in the mental approach, not just the physical one.

Btw, I know you didn't ask and it sounds like you're sorted, it's just a side conversation to the main thread.
 
Back in the olden days when I learnt to ride all crash hats were white, admittedly covered up by a silk that was held in place by a ribbon that tied at the front. And generally the silk flew off halfway round a XC course and you proceeded round the course looking like a giant egg head lol
 
Wow, what fantastic advice we're getting on this thread now :) Thanks to everyone for their great contributions.

ps can't stop thinking about cauliflower :)
 
Thanks TS, now all I can think about is cauliflower! ;) I am very guilty of continually looking for and thinking of all the things I'm not doing, or when looking back at a schooling session, lesson or competition, only thinking about the things I didn't do or should have done/ done better. I get told off in lessons for being too hard on myself and not thinking about/looking at the positive things I am doing and have achieved. So yes, I do agree that mental attitude has a lot to do with it. It's funny because at work, where I know I am good at my job and I achieve consistently good results, I am confident and don't get crises of confidence. It's only ever really my riding where I think "I can't do that" or "I'm no go at X", then i think it becomes a mental block.

It's all an interesting conversation, always something to learn :)
 
ann-jen said:
Back in the olden days when I learnt to ride all crash hats were white, admittedly covered up by a silk that was held in place by a ribbon that tied at the front. And generally the silk flew off halfway round a XC course and you proceeded round the course looking like a giant egg head lol
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They were jockey skull caps, and everyday riders wore a velvet cap. The ones in NZ were not, they were in place of the velvet cap.
 
I love that feeling of the horse softening and just being there in your contact. Then you can sit up, smile and try to look elegant! For me, that's dressage.
 
I think a lot of people struggle with the self-deprecating trap, too, in riding. They don't feel it's 'okay' to say they are 'good' at something. Or they rely on outside judgement only, which puts an immense pressure on instructors - who may only see a student a couple of hours a month, if that - to be guardians of self-esteem, not just educators. (And then get bashed on bulletin boards for not being able to make a dozen changes instantly or force people to improve. ;) )

The thing is, horses are all about honesty. They don't care about our hang ups. :D

It's a useful exercise to look at photos/video and consciously pick out a few things you think you do WELL before you start on the improvements.
 
TarrSteps said:
It's a useful exercise to look at photos/video and consciously pick out a few things you think you do WELL before you start on the improvements.
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I've had myself videoed quite a bit recently, and had lots of pics taken. I must say I was absolutely amazed. I took the pony to camp at Somerford last month and tore myself to pieces over X and Y that was wrong with my jumping - sure I wasn't giving enough with my hands, wasn't helping out the horse enough, everything. Then I watched the vids and looked at pics, and couldn't believe it was me in them. I remember saying to someone "my god, I'm actually alright at this riding lark" ;)
 
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