Low Hand Epidemic

really inspirational thread and so agree with the self deprecating spiral that it is so easy to get into. The toddler analogy and core stability is a brilliant analogy. Thank you. The Plank (off the horse!!) is a brill exercise for core stability.
 
chestnut cob said:
I've had myself videoed quite a bit recently, and had lots of pics taken. I must say I was absolutely amazed. I took the pony to camp at Somerford last month and tore myself to pieces over X and Y that was wrong with my jumping - sure I wasn't giving enough with my hands, wasn't helping out the horse enough, everything. Then I watched the vids and looked at pics, and couldn't believe it was me in them. I remember saying to someone "my god, I'm actually alright at this riding lark" ;)
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:) :) :) :)
 
This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....
jazz_zps6b6a5998.jpg
 
So what does that prove? It's impossible to tell what is happening without context. Also, nobody is perfect all the time. In order to prove that a line broken downwards is correct, could you find, say, 3 shots of Charlotte like that, or maybe a shot of each of the top 10? If that is taken to be correct then why doesn't everyone at that level ride like that consistently?

I assume this goes to the earlier conversation re people critiquing other people's photographs. . .didn't we come to the conclusion that it's not really valid without context?
 
TarrSteps said:
So what does that prove? It's impossible to tell what is happening without context. Also, nobody is perfect all the time. In order to prove that a line broken downwards is correct, could you find, say, 3 shots of Charlotte like that, or maybe a shot of each of the top 10? If that is taken to be correct then why doesn't everyone at that level ride like that consistently?

I assume this goes to the earlier conversation re people critiquing other people's photographs. . .didn't we come to the conclusion that it's not really valid without context?
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Nonono!

What you've said above is EXACTLY what I was trying to say- that noone is perfect 100% of the time and folk need to stop looking at their bad points as much and focus on their good too, and that a picture doesn't always tell the full story.
 
Jenni_ said:
This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....
jazz_zps6b6a5998.jpg
Click to expand...

See, now looking at this photo has just raised a thought in my head - when riding with a snaffle, there is only one rein so the straight line that. 'should' be maintained is obvious. But as someone who is not yet riding with a double, does the straight line stay with the bridoon rein as though you are just using a snaffle, or should the straight line be maintained through the curb rein? I'd be very interested to know for future reference!! :)

FWIW, reading back through the other posts about being too self-depreciating, it is always obvious that people should have as many lessons with a decent instructor as they can afford, yet the idea of people being video'd isn't put forward anywhere near enough (well pointed out TS as per usual).

I find it very useful to see video of myself (and the last time I did was very pleasantly surprised) not just from a moral perspective but also as useful feedback between lessons - but it's extremely rare that I can get an eye on the ground to stand there recording me in action. Definitely something that should be suggested more often though!! :-)
 
Straight line through the snaffle rein. The curb doesn't actually go to the mouth, but to a point some inches below the mouth.

In reality, it just kind of works out, as if the force is coming mainly down the curb rein you've probably got bigger problems than the elbow to mouth line. :D

That is the thing about this whole conversation, it's not about 'correct' as in adheres to a random set of rules, it's correct as in functional and determined to be optimal for meeting long and short term goals. So you CAN fix your hands down and ride with a rigid, 'side rein' arm, of course you can. You might even get prizes for it! ;) But you will pay later in the development of the horse, way of going, strain on your own body etc etc.

This is the problem with 'independent learning' in riding. There a are all sorts of things that seem like a good idea at the time bot cause problems later. Also, there are alternative methods and systems which are equally valid. To some extent you learn by doing - there were scores of warnings I was given over the years I did not really believe until I saw the results for myself! - but it always seems more sensible to me to learn from other people's mistakes, rather than try to make them all yourself. ;)
 
And one last thing, before I go on holiday :), re instruction. Two points have been mentioned. One is that the instructor may simply not know. He/she may have been getting away with it themselves. Or perhaps not understand the repercussions.

Two, the instructor may very well be going for the quick fix! Perhaps out of personal inclination, but perhaps because that's what the client seems to want. If you want the instructor to take the long term view you need to make that clear. Lots of riders don't want it, btw! Then there is the issue of prioritising areas to concentrate on - change is hard and instructors understand you can't change everything at once!

There are SO many good books on riding, I think it's worth knowing a bit about WHY you should do something, as often that explains why you would pick one path over another.

Just don't get too rigid. ;)
 
This thread has been interesting!!! what weird things are people being taught.

There is an AI down the road from me, who encourages hands wide and low, she also has pupils who windlass and fiddle/pull back whilst riding horse aggressively into the contact, to get them to 'give' in the neck (presumably).
I don't really teach, don't have the time, but I have taken 2 of these former pupils & explained the difference between inside & outside rein. Told them the cast iron rule of straight line from elbow to bit - which really shows whether you have an independent seat!! In one case to stop horse from freaking when a contact was taken - it was so confused, all that was required was to move the inside hand up the horses neck and keep both hands quiet - sudden happy horse.
This long low nonsense has a lot to answer for IMO. Fine to let the horse stretch if it has worked hard, but if it isn't working over it's back when you are in a more uphill frame, then there is a problem, it doesn't have to be in a long frame to swing over the back surely.
Also while I am on a roll since when did you lower the hands to counteract a horse raising it's head. Surely when a horse pokes it's nose you raise the hands in response. Since when are the hands used to lower the head like that?
 
TarrSteps said:
And one last thing, before I go on holiday :), re instruction. Two points have been mentioned. One is that the instructor may simply not know. He/she may have been getting away with it themselves. Or perhaps not understand the repercussions.

Two, the instructor may very well be going for the quick fix! Perhaps out of personal inclination, but perhaps because that's what the client seems to want. If you want the instructor to take the long term view you need to make that clear. Lots of riders don't want it, btw! Then there is the issue of prioritising areas to concentrate on - change is hard and instructors understand you can't change everything at once!

There are SO many good books on riding, I think it's worth knowing a bit about WHY you should do something, as often that explains why you would pick one path over another.

Just don't get too rigid. ;)
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You've encapsulated there a major problem with intermittent training or starting with a new trainer. Most people, trainer and trained, want the lesson to be a really positive experience. Unfortunately, that often turns into staying within the existing boundaries of the horse and rider, and if you do that you can't actually make any progress.

I agree with the video comments, my video has been as much help as the two great trainers I've had and a lot more help than the fifteen useless ones :)

Have a great holiday TS
 
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I agree with you siennamum. Long and low is a warm up and cool down exercise for me.

I really rated 'Twisted truths of modern dressage' and what Phillips Karl says about hands, though that could be a whole other thread :)



The answer to 'since when' is that it seems to be worse since the Olympics, but that I believe it is being driven by dressage judges marking down preliminary horses whose noses are slightly in front of the vertical
 
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TarrSteps said:
Straight line through the snaffle rein. The curb doesn't actually go to the mouth, but to a point some inches below the mouth.

In reality, it just kind of works out, as if the force is coming mainly down the curb rein you've probably got bigger problems than the elbow to mouth line. :D

That is the thing about this whole conversation, it's not about 'correct' as in adheres to a random set of rules, it's correct as in functional and determined to be optimal for meeting long and short term goals. So you CAN fix your hands down and ride with a rigid, 'side rein' arm, of course you can. You might even get prizes for it! ;) But you will pay later in the development of the horse, way of going, strain on your own body etc etc.

This is the problem with 'independent learning' in riding. There a are all sorts of things that seem like a good idea at the time bot cause problems later. Also, there are alternative methods and systems which are equally valid. To some extent you learn by doing - there were scores of warnings I was given over the years I did not really believe until I saw the result for myself! - but it always seems more sensible to me to learn from other people's mistakes, rather than try to make them all yourself. ;)
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This is exactly why I was asking!! :D I couldn't see why it would be on the curb rein, but as the thought had popped into my head and I had the opportunity to ask I thought it made sense.
 
There's an interesting video on the horse hero site of a top German dressage trainer giving a lesson to a 4* event rider. The trainer asks the rider to get the horse lower and longer in the neck, the rider puts her hands low and either side of the wither and gets told not to do that but to ride the neck and back longer with her hand up. The trainer even says " why on earth do you think that low hands mean low neck?" Have to say the rider involved looks pretty fed up with the lesson! But horse looks much improved by the end.
 
Then there is the way dressage shows are judged. I don't know what happens at ones in Britain, but the issues "Dressage Curmudgeon" discusses in her blog entry here, which reflects what happens in Canada, certainly occur in the US as well. http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ms-v-versus-swifferour-first-show.html.

I bet that kind of thing encourages people to try to get their horses' noses down as quickly as humanly possible.
 
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I'm so guilty of this! My instructor is constantly yelling at me to carry my hands and have a natural bend of the elbow. When I see photos it looks terrible... I know I'm doing it it's just trying to remember to do it! I blame too much happy hacking!!!
 
biggingerpony said:
I'm so guilty of this! My instructor is constantly yelling at me to carry my hands and have a natural bend of the elbow. When I see photos it looks terrible... I know I'm doing it it's just trying to remember to do it! I blame too much happy hacking!!!
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When you ride by yourself, one tip is to put a whip under your thumbs, then it's impossible to do it :)
 
I've always ridden with low hands. Not sure why, I think simply because nobody ever told me otherwise! I only realised at age 20 after being yelled at "LIFT YOUR HANDS" every 2 mins by a very very abrupt Dutch dressage trainer... I still cannot train myself to hold them higher, just feels totally wrong which I guess it would after 26 years of riding like this!
 
Oh that's funny. Thanks for posting that link!

Caol Ila said:
Then there is the way dressage shows are judged. I don't know what happens at ones in Britain, but the issues "Dressage Curmudgeon" discusses in her blog entry here, which reflects what happens in Canada, certainly occur in the US as well. http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ms-v-versus-swifferour-first-show.html.

I bet that kind of thing encourages people to try to get their horses' noses down as quickly as humanly possible.
Click to expand...
 
Jenni_ said:
This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....
jazz_zps6b6a5998.jpg
Click to expand...

If the contact is light enough a perfect straight line cannot happen . The weight of the rein will make it adopt a curve and to maximise the effect of the give and take at the riders elbow it would be necessary to drop the hand sightly to follow that curve.
I was taught originaly to flex my wrists inwards as if holding a book ,as this gives a very sensetive "feel" to the contact with the mouth. I frequently get slated for this turning inwards of my thumbs.
As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.
 
Mike007 said:
If the contact is light enough a perfect straight line cannot happen . The weight of the rein will make it adopt a curve and to maximise the effect of the give and take at the riders elbow it would be necessary to drop the hand sightly to follow that curve.
I was taught originaly to flex my wrists inwards as if holding a book ,as this gives a very sensetive "feel" to the contact with the mouth. I frequently get slated for this turning inwards of my thumbs.
As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.
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Mike, if there is a soft loop in the rein then there is no true contact.

The straight line elbow hand horses mouth is the only way to go, as the moment the hand is higher or lower leverage exists.

The lightness/heaviness of the contact depends on the softness and suppleness of the riders arms and shoulders, the ability to soften or tighten the fist and the reaction of the rider to any movement the horse makes in his carriage.

Turning the wrist or lifting the hand brings into play muscles in the arm which lead to resistance. To have truly soft hands and contact the arm should only be bent at the elbow, with the wrist straight.
 
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This whole thread has been very interesting - I definitely ride with my hands far too low and it is a habit I am trying very hard to break. For me, it goes hand in hand (pun definitely intended) with having open fingers. I don't lean forward at all, but I do allow the reins to slip through my fingers, meaning that the only way I can then maintain a contact is to create a greater distance between my hands and the horse's mouth by making them lower and wider. If anyone has any helpful tips/advice re: keeping your elbows soft and carrying your hands (other than just: do it) I would be very interested to hear it.
 
I do understand what you are saying however I was not refering to a "soft loop "in the reins . When a rein is held ,its weigh exerts a force at both ends , the rein will tend to adopt a curve, pulling hard on the rein will straighten that curve ,but will also exert a greater force on the bit. I guess it all comes down to how heavy a contact you want ,or believe to be correct in a given set of circumstances.
 
Mike007 said:
As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.
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It's my understanding that soft hands is a bit of a misnomer - that it's really soft elbows one should be achieving? Or have I got that all wrong? The reins are held in the hand firm enough so they can't slip, as if holding a child's hand when crossing a street. But the elbows are soft and giving.

As for hand height....I have been taught to give a young / green horse a low and wide tube to find his frame in. I don't do much with young horses, so perhaps this is a misinterpretation. However, with my more experienced horse I will give low hands to stretch over the back - and for uphill work my hands are in that "book reading" position. It is perhaps not a straight line from elbow to mouth.
 
PucciNPoni said:
It's my understanding that soft hands is a bit of a misnomer - that it's really soft elbows one should be achieving? Or have I got that all wrong? The reins are held in the hand firm enough so they can't slip, as if holding a child's hand when crossing a street. But the elbows are soft and giving.

As for hand height....I have been taught to give a young / green horse a low and wide tube to find his frame in. I don't do much with young horses, so perhaps this is a misinterpretation. However, with my more experienced horse I will give low hands to stretch over the back - and for uphill work my hands are in that "book reading" position. It is perhaps not a straight line from elbow to mouth.
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Your sort of right, if there is no softness in the elbow then the arm resists, it has to move as if part of the rein. Soft hands are also important, the tension of the closure of the fist does affect the softness
of the whole contact. A tight fist will tighten the muscle in the upper arm, causing a block, such as in a half halt.

I often hear people being told to 'give and take' where infact it is better to say 'take and return' then the rider doesn't throw away the contact.
 
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