Lucinda Green article in latest copy of H&H

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Anyone read it? It was in reference to the 3 falls at the same fence at Kentucky (including OT's) and the difference between the two who didn't end up as a rotational fall and OT's one where it did.

She talks bout going back to the basics of allowing a horse to have it's neck and head to be able to read and see the fence and beyond it, instead of holding on with a short contact until that moment of no return and how two riders did this, one didn't.

Thoughts? I love her she approaches xc through a horse's mind, shame more don't do the same :(
 
i totally agree with her.
Capt Mark Phillips said that short reins are the bane of modern xc riding...
horses need to use their necks to balance, their head and neck are heavy, and free use of them can sometimes be enough for them to keep their feet.
 
Totally agree with her. I am not "anti" OT's riding, as he is obviously very good, but his fall made me think about what has been happening. I know courses have evolved, and fences made as safe as possible, but there must be a reason why rotational falls are becoming more frequent. I am not blaming any one thing specifically, as there must be lots of things that have changed over the years - fence design, expectations of the course designer, jumps that have the "wow" factor for spectators etc

Watching H/C TV (Badminton memories series) shows just how much riders styles have changed. The days of slipping the reins (and hailing a cab) seem to have gone, and now if a horse suddenly slows (for whatever reason - refusal, fall etc) the riders seem to be more prone to going straight over their heads. Even the commentators then seemed to notice - Mary King could barely get past the first few fences without one of them mentioning the "Mary King safety seat" and WFP is constantly being praised (quite rightly) for his balance and position in the saddle. It is also interesting to see how technical the fences have become with skinnies, corners, related distances and so on. Seeing some of the ditches, bank drops and "rider frighteners" on Badminton early 90's was bizarre.

I remember seeing Blythe Tait at Burghley (many years ago) and being amazed at how different his position in the saddle and over XC he was in comparison to the riders I had been used to seeing.

Looking forward to the XC tomorrow - and hoping all horses and riders are safe.
 
I couldn't quite grasp the sub-text though - she didn't quite say that the fall was OT's fault exactly - after all, 3 horses fell in much the same way, other than that two of them deposited their riders after the step and one on the step. The fourth horse miraculously found 6 legs and managed to stay upright and jump the next element. But she seemed certainly to imply that 2 riders walked away and OT didn't due to the shortness of rein/shortness of relationship with his horse:(

OT on the other hand states that the horse made a mistake.
 
LG seemed to imply that Oli hindered his horse from making a recovery but she only hinted at it; I wish she'd made it more obvious exactly what she mean't!
 
Totally agree with saalsk - I said the same in a post yesterday. All this nostalgia TV on H&C at the moment is making very interesting viewing with respect to the changes in modern courses, and the corresponding change in (some) rider styles.

I don't think Lucinda wanted to slate OT any more obviously, but she certainly seemed to say that the other two riders having a similar fall did not rotate because they allowed their horses more freedom. She is hardly going to s**g a senior GB team member publicly in H&H.

Fiona
 
It was a bit tricky though - that was obviously what she meant but she stopped short of actually saying it straight out, presumably so as not to be taken to task for saying it in the first place.

On the subject of how "well" people use to ride, if you look at old footage, there was no "one" style - some people rode very upright, some people rode very forward. In fact the most "back seat" rider, Lorna Clarke - who I think was a great rider and horseman - was certainly not the norm even for that time. I can see the point LG is making but I think it's dangerous to say *this* is what's causing the problem.

I also think, much as I admire LG and think she's doing good work towards xc safety, I think it's very easy to say this or that caused a problem in hindsight. Looking at some pics of other horses jumping that fence, there must have been something odd about it as even some very good jumpers left a leg. (I'm not blaming course design - it might very well have been something us humans couldn't have even seen.) So did they not fall because they were better ridden than the ones that did fall? Or did they not fall for a bunch of reasons? One of which might have been dumb luck?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a huge "riding" component in falls, I just think there's a danger in narrowing the focus because it makes people who aren't doing whatever is being highlighted think they're okay, even if they're doing a hundred other things wrong. It's a checklist not an on off switch. And to be blunt, I've seen pics on here of horses being ridden very short and held in front universally admired so do people not see it or is it only a problem when it goes wrong?
 
there are different styles now, as then. one of the most stylish riders imho was Vicky Latta, who often slipped her reins and came to fences with a soft contact (or looser than that) and long reins but was very secure. Blyth was supremely stylish, I don't think i've ever seen a pic of him in a bad position. Many riders ride in that style now, imho - Francis Whittington is one who springs to mind. Never in front of the movement, but also never hanging onto the mouth. Matt Ryan does the more extreme version, more defensive but also never relying on the hands (and horse's mouth).
The horse was jumping brilliantly up till that point, foot perfect imho, and it did make a mistake. I don't know if you can train that instinct to slip the reins if the horse gets into trouble, it happens too fast to think about. :( :( :(
 
Both Lucinda and Tina gently made their opinions in H&H this week, re the Oli fall. I think they have a point re partnership between horse and rider. Also, watching the footage several times you can see that on the turn to the fence the horse is in Dressage position (head and neck wise) then up and and being "hooked" in front of the fence. Very hard for the horse to read the question and very hard for him to be able to use his body once he had. Having said that, the round up to that point had been ridden beautifully.

However, in her statement that rotational falls have only being happening for the last 10 years, LG seems to have forgotton her classic rotational fall on Shannagh at the Lumuhlen europeans. Luckily the ground was soft that year.

Surely the reason there are more rotational falls now compared to 20 yrs ago is that there are many, many more people competing? Kerilli may have the stats!
 
I'm going to put my point of view across not as a competitor as I don't but as someone who enjoys watching eventing. I have felt for along time that these top horses are over trained almost to the point that they become robots. I've seen two demos in the last couple of years by top riders who both said you must never ever allow your horses to refuse or run out. However the horse had come into the fence they jump it.

In my humble opinion I think this is actually very frightening, at the end of the day eventing is about partnership and team work but you are never allowing one part of that team to voice it's opinion.

Just my feelings, people may not agree
 
I haven't read the article, but I can guess the general lean of it.
FWIW I thought when I saw Oli's fall that he was to my mind, almost a little in front of the movement. The short reins etc etc all goes along with that, now we all know how competitive Oli is and that he started out in SJ, this is sometimes shown up in his seat and position, when he gets ultra competitive, he comes a cropper because 'old habits die hard'.
This is something I struggle with on a daily basis as a former junior showjumper, and I think its something I will always have to work on.
*FA2 wanders off dreaming of a lower leg like Lucinda*
 
I think the horse left a leg and it fell. I think it was an accident. You can analyse it till the cows come home. The partnership was short yes, but this is an experienced horse, its no real difference in my opion to a lesser rider taking a lesser new horse out at Novice.

He came around the corner collected, but he had ridden a horse through before and he decided that is how it needed to be ridden it didn't work. How many times have you done something, ridden in to a fence and it went wrong?! Thats just life. He is a determined rider, and he rides to win, not to come in 2nd. That is why he is so successful and that is why he will have falls like that over his career

My mother is very superstitious and reckons that a volcano a £1500 (or whatever it was) taxi ride, owners being delayed and a frangible pin all failed at stopping him from winning the Grand slam lol she is convinced it wasnt his time and he didn't listen lol. Needless to say if we ever have horsebox problems etc enroute to polo or eventing- we never tell her!!
 
Am I the only one that didn't really like that fence? As far as I could think that was the first time I had seen a fence like that followed so closely by steps down, though I may be wrong and the could well be as common as roll tops! Just a thought but I would have been concerned about a horse tripping down the steps as a result of a slightly off jump.
 
LG and TC made comments but they didn't make a statement. I think there *could* have been editing on h&h part but If they think OT did something so wrong they should stand up and say it. He is a big boy he can take it. And if they think it is a safety concern page 5 of this week shows what can happen if people don't give their input! I like LG and I think she is doing fab things in regard to xc safety but the last time she evented internationally was the late 1980s XC has evolved so much since then. Would she be as successful as a rider now?!

*gets off soap box and runs off to arm self with mucking out tools*
 
I think the horse made a bad mistake at a not terribly nice fence. In fact I thought the horse looked so surprised that it didn't try to get the landing gear out - maybe that's a horse that hasn't had a lot of mistakes in his career and therefore got badly caught out when things went wrong? Hence my thoughts that the fences should allow for *some* degree of mess-up in the event of horse or rider making a mistake. Watching Little Tiger's (horrendous) miss at the coffin at Belton, two things struck me - the fence gave way and the mare made a serious effort to get the landing gear out. Phoebe sat on the back of the saddle and slipped the reins but if either of those two things hadn't happened, she'd have been in much the same situation as Oli....

Video here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYS9De-wRlo
 
kit, did you see the vid of the fall taken from the left hand side (deleted from youtube now i think). the horse hit the fence above its left knee as it came up (it was leading with the left leg, so that was closer to the fence), you could see clearly in the vid that its leg then straightened as it started rotating around it. it honestly didn't have a chance to get its landing gear out, it was already rotating around its forearm.
tbh, thinking about it more carefully, i don't think even if he'd dropped the reins that the horse could have saved itself from there. perhaps the other 2 horses who fell there hit the fence slightly lower on their leg, just with knee for example? both fell onto the step iirc, so their falls were v similar, just their riders were lucky to be thrown clear.
i agree about Phoebe, she was v v lucky that that fence fell apart at Belton, if it had been a solid rail then, from how she hit it, i don't think Frosty could have stayed upright.
that's the thing - thank God they got away with it. one mistake from horse or rider really should not = horrific fall.
 
Supertrooper said:
I'm going to put my point of view across not as a competitor as I don't but as someone who enjoys watching eventing. I have felt for along time that these top horses are over trained almost to the point that they become robots. I've seen two demos in the last couple of years by top riders who both said you must never ever allow your horses to refuse or run out. However the horse had come into the fence they jump it.

In my humble opinion I think this is actually very frightening, at the end of the day eventing is about partnership and team work but you are never allowing one part of that team to voice it's opinion.

Just my feelings, people may not agree
Click to expand...

I agree to a certain extent. My old horse only ever stopped if i put him in an unjumpable position. This only ever happened a handful of times in over ten years but I was always grateful that he made the final decision if i had co**ed up! But genuine horses like him arent exactly common, so i can see the other side of teaching a horse that stopping isnt an option because sometimes refusing can actually be worse than jumping and cause a greater safety problem. You cant be jumping xc fences thinking backwards.

That link from Kit is a great example of seeing how a horse uses its head and neck to balance, given the chance to do so. But if the fence hadnt collapsed i dont think even that would have saved them.

There are some very exprienced and knowledgeable people commenting on this, im finding it very educational! :D
 
i never mind a 'safety stop'. if we've ended up in a truly impossible position, that the horse really cannot jump from, i can cope with 20 penalties and a bit of embarrassment/annoyance with myself a lot better than i can cope with half a ton of horse landing on me (even in my Exo!) it's only happened once or twice ever, and my good horses have extricated us clear from quite a few points where i sat up, chucked them the reins and expected a stop or run out (maybe that's WHY they coped so well... hmm...)
William Micklem wrote an excellent article about timing of the whip and about not training a horse to go xc with fear. a good horse loves the game, it doesn't jump the fences for fear of getting reprimanded if it doesn't jump... and just because a horse 'knows how to stop' doesn't mean it will. they all know how to rear and buck too, they throw impressive shapes in the field, doesn't mean they do it under saddle. i think most horses that stop or run out have a reason (poor presentation, usually, occasionally a downright naughty horse who has learnt to run out, i concede that!) just as most who rear and buck under saddle have a reason (discomfort, confusion, etc) it might just take a good while to work out what it is...
 
kerilli said:
i totally agree with her.
Capt Mark Phillips said that short reins are the bane of modern xc riding...
horses need to use their necks to balance, their head and neck are heavy, and free use of them can sometimes be enough for them to keep their feet.
Click to expand...

I dont get this must have a long rein thing-the head needs to be supported but I agree that you of course need to be able to slip the reins when needed. Surely going XC with washing line reins is asking for trouble?!! Mark Todd always goes XC with his hands firmly stuck at least 1/4 of the way up the neck- one of his best rounds was on Horton Point when the reins were very short and tight and the reason why that round was so beautifull was because the horse was perfectly in balance and well supported, and secure every step of the way.
Whereas someone like Ginny Elliot who went XC with longer reins had her fair share of tumbles and struggles.

I cant see how you can go into a bounce or a difficult combination with long reins?! or indeed any fence? It will cause a loss of balance and the horse will feel insecure
 
Personally I agree with Kirelli, the horse was never going to save himself from leaving that leg, it was an accident and they happen. Thank goodness it was not any more serious.

I dont think starting out as a show jumper means you are going to amke more mistakes eventing (xc) look at when vere phillips did Burghley, and you don't win Badders and Burghley in 1 year through luck.
 
Thinking back 15 or so years ago I remember watching xc somewhere and being truly worried that horses were being taught to be so bold that they would literally jump anything, regardless:( This resulted in a certain number of scary falls, but they were generally at speed, over relatively untechnical fences, and riders mostly got fired out of the way.

The "no is not an option" school of thought is okay to a point, but doesn't really gel with the "leave the jump up to the horse" school of thought - although some people seem to be proponents of both. As long as the horse I am on is generally honest and obedient, I am quite happy for him to have an opinion if I have made an utter horlicks of getting him to a fence :o
 
seabiscuit said:
I dont get this must have a long rein thing-the head needs to be supported but I agree that you of course need to be able to slip the reins when needed. Surely going XC with washing line reins is asking for trouble?!! Mark Todd always goes XC with his hands firmly stuck at least 1/4 of the way up the neck- one of his best rounds was on Horton Point when the reins were very short and tight and the reason why that round was so beautifull was because the horse was perfectly in balance and well supported, and secure every step of the way.
Whereas someone like Ginny Elliot who went XC with longer reins had her fair share of tumbles and struggles.

I cant see how you can go into a bounce or a difficult combination with long reins?! or indeed any fence? It will cause a loss of balance and the horse will feel insecure
Click to expand...

My personal interpretation of long reins is you have just as much of a contact as you do with shorter reins but your elbows are further back so there's more rein length between your hand and the bit but if the horse needs more freedom (ie to use head and neck as"fifth leg") they can without you needing to slip the reins as they can take your hand forward without pulling your upper body forward and putting you in a vulnerable position. You can still steer with "long" reins it just doesn't look so pretty as there's more "elbow action"
 
One thing I notice now is that even over big spreads rides tend to hook and almost show jump coming into them. About the only one who lets the horse run on at straight forward fences is Francis Whittington. In the past it was all point and kick. Whether horses have got more athletic or maybe riders just feel they do not have to really ride them?
 
Well just to add some confusion, i think it was Paul Tapners first ride today- the commentators said it was because he held on to the head that he didnt fall when the horse fell down the step at one jump (cant remember the name- the old sunken road?).
 
Think it comes down to the rider being able to react insrinctively and appropriately to what's happening at that exact moment. Sometimes the horse needs the freedom others it needs to be held up... that's the key to being a good XC rider and something that can't really be trained in to people
 
Yes, i agree its instinct or subconcious thought, theres no way you have time to make a decision sometimes
 
Rowreach said:
OT on the other hand states that the horse made a mistake.
Click to expand...

Haven't read the other answers yet but this jumped out at me!

His style of riding certainly gave the horse no chance to recover so perhaps that's the excuse he's giving because he was the sole instigator for him to get the ride in the first place and the owners hadn't originally wanted to go?:( Perhaps it was his justified comeuppance.
Interesting in the HH report when he said he'd be riding again soon; there was no mention of how the horse was at all, just all about him.:mad:
 
Thing is, a horse can make a mistake, it depends how the rider deals with the subsequent situation. Yes sometimes there's no chance of any action preventing a fall, and sometimes you make the wrong decision... Not that I attach any criticism to OT, but it is interesting to see how the same (apparent) mistake lead to different scenarios depending on the rider, or just chance?
 
MFH9 said:
Haven't read the other answers yet but this jumped out at me!

His style of riding certainly gave the horse no chance to recover so perhaps that's the excuse he's giving because he was the sole instigator for him to get the ride in the first place and the owners hadn't originally wanted to go?:( Perhaps it was his justified comeuppance.
Interesting in the HH report when he said he'd be riding again soon; there was no mention of how the horse was at all, just all about him.:mad:
Click to expand...
For all we know he might have mentioned the horse, but it got edited out?
 
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