Managing a competition horse with flat thin soles

[star]

Please see my blog entry here for xrays and report from the vet today.
http://competitiondiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/visit-to-liphook-10-04-13.html

Basic story: 14yr old eventer been lame last 2.5weeks left fore. Have always struggled to get him to grow any foot. He had terribly collapsed heels/long toes when I got him. Xrays show flat pedal bone, thin soles and broken back hoof-pastern axis. Nerve blocks confirmed pain coming from his hoof - lots of bruising coming out of his heel.

Wondering what people's experiences are with pads/remedial shoeing? I'm prepared for the onslought of people suggesting he goes barefoot. Am not anti barefoot as have one horse completely barefoot but have no intention of taking this one's shoes off at this point so would only like to hear stories of managing this kind of problem with shoes at this stage please.

Thanks.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

All I can say is I keep my horses in a year belonging to my local remedial farrier and it is amazing with modern materials and different type of shoeing the results they can get. We have had issues with Sarnie over the years which has been supported by special shoes and equipak (a gel filler rather than a traditional pad)

Have a chat with the best farrier you can find and see what they say it will make a huge difference, try and look for one with the AWCF as these have passed exams in remedial work as well as have a more detailed understanding of anatomy of the foot etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

My TB had thin soles collapsed heels the walls where cracking away the farrier had less and less wall to nail into he becoming lame after shoeing and did not like walking down stoney tracks.
To get the BF thing out of the way I removed my horses shoes for a year and did the BF rehab thing with advice from a trimmer HHO a book and a increasingly amazed vet as the horse confounded her expectations.
I understand why you don't wish to do this so my advice would be to try the BF type diet I am convinced that since I started this the quality of all my horses feet has improved .
I put my TB onto farriers formula about six months in and I wish I had done it sooner his horn growth is now quick and thicker ( I think that's the best way to express what I see).
He worked lightly through this year he was shod a fortnight ago as he is ready to start completing again .
There's lots of threads on here about the diet so have a search .
On remedial shoeing my advice would go to the best farrier you can find even if that means driving the horse there every six weeks .
I would avoid pads if you can they are a short term quick fix but do make things worse in the end IMO .
It you leave near a beach salt water is great for feet and I do think Keratex helps the soles a bit .
Good luck I hope you find a way of managing the issue.

 

[MileyMouse]

Hi my boy had a similar problem with very flat feet and just not growing !

Last year he injured his collateral ligament and had remedial shoeing. He firstly had some leverage reduction shoes with pads (he has pads as its very stoney where we are and he needs the cushioning as his feet are so flat) and equi pack underneath, I also started feeding him micronised linseed. A year later he is still shod similarly but is sound, he has alot of foot growing and is gradually starting to get some concavity back

 

[bgb]

Not experienced with the remedial shoeing side etc. but horse had awful flat + crumbly feet and we put him on farriers formula for 6 months. (Cheapest on VioVet) Helped to grow good quality hoof quickly which has been managed with correct shoeing. He is also fed pure working which has low sugar/starch levels with brewers yeast + biotin etc already added.

When his feet were at their worst, it was always this time of year when they got really bad as extra rich grass.

Good luck, it will be a process of trial and error which will be worth it when you can get back on your wonderful little horse.

 

[be positive]

Had a similar story last season with a now 15 year old event horse, he was barely 1/10 lame on a circle but xrays were worse than the clinical signs and very similar to your horses. We went with the farrier who wanted to put on bar shoes, vet wanted wedges, he had 3 sets at 4 weekly intervals and as he was sound continued competing in them, his performance improved as did his movement and he was treated regularly with physio.
At the end of the season the shoes came off, he had a break then came back to work barefoot, recent xrays were not much different unfortunately but his soles have thickened and heels have started to become less underrun, he is now back in bar shoes and xrays are being done on Friday to check that the angles are getting better, we have changed vets mid way through treatment as not happy with previous vet, he had not really helped, the xrays were never shown to the farrier despite numerous requests plus other issues, this time I hope we will get better continuity and the angles will improve so he can go into normal shoes.

His overall way of going has become softer, the physio has seen vast improvement, he was always tight in his shoulders as if protecting himself.
Diet was also changed to lower starch/ sugar, much to his disgust and you can very clearly see this in the event lines that are now almost grown out.

 

[emmab13]

I had a lovely French-bred ex pointer with horrendous feet. Thin soles, crap feet in general, would limp about for weeks if he lost a shoe, and was lame after shoeing 2/3 times.

Excellent farrier shod with pads, permanent over-reach boots, and for 10whole weeks (two shoeings) we did walk/trot work in straight lines and no turnout to avoid pulling a shoe. Also supplemented with Biotin and had access to a hydrotherapy spa twice or three times a week.

It did work, but then did live in fear of losing a shoe. Went XC with several layers of duct tape over the bulb of the heel and ends of the shoe. Plus overreach boots.

Always put him in the spa the evening we got home from an event (spoilt much) in case of any bruising. High maintenance was an understatement, but I didn't fancy his chances barefoot, think he would have had to have been followed round with IV bute to even go out in the field!

 

[KatB]

I've had all sorts of feet problems with my mate, but basically the same as your horse. She is in bar shoes currently, but we have used equipak too. However, the best thing for heel growth and happy pony was magic cushion and pads. I think we will end up going back to this with her bar shoes to give the best combination of support and protection, as well as improving the sole and heels good luck!

 

[ester]

I'm not sure I can help but wanted to say thanks for putting the x-rays up they are certainly interesting and the pedal are definitely flat- and I think that goes with flat + thin soles. We did go one step further as limited improvement and block /steroid inject coffin joint - also presumed aggrevated by the angles/extra strain.

We shod in bar shoes for 3 cycles/brought back break over etc and feet improved significantly on the outside (more heel/shorter toe) but no real improvement in soundness. I decided not to go the pads route as he was 19 by then and I wasn't prepared to try and keep him going just because/he wasn't a comp horse anyway so took shoes off with plan to try rehab and if it didn't work retire (although I did question this at times).

He is sound and in full work (just building up the jumping) and I suppose I mention him just to prove that it is possible to go from flat to concave+ thick soles and a better pedal bone angle.

 

[HardySoul1]

Different diagnosis but my sister had great success with our master farrier using pads for her sidebone horse. They are air filled (like Nike air trainers with bubbles inside?!) and fit under normal shoe. They extend about 1-2 cm inside shoe but leave frog exposed as normal. Horse very happy in them.

 

[star]

I'm not sure I can help but wanted to say thanks for putting the x-rays up they are certainly interesting and the pedal are definitely flat- and I think that goes with flat + thin soles. We did go one step further as limited improvement and block /steroid inject coffin joint - also presumed aggrevated by the angles/extra strain.

We shod in bar shoes for 3 cycles/brought back break over etc and feet improved significantly on the outside (more heel/shorter toe) but no real improvement in soundness. I decided not to go the pads route as he was 19 by then and I wasn't prepared to try and keep him going just because/he wasn't a comp horse anyway so took shoes off with plan to try rehab and if it didn't work retire (although I did question this at times).

He is sound and in full work (just building up the jumping) and I suppose I mention him just to prove that it is possible to go from flat to concave+ thick soles and a better pedal bone angle.

Vet also thinks we may have to block/inject coffin joints as he went lame right fore after blocking left fore so on top of acute bruising to left fore heel he thinks we also have chronic soreness of both coffin joints due to chronic strain from dodgy angles.

 

[maccachic]

You need to identify the cause and not treat the symptons.

Why don't feet the grow?

Why are the soles flat?

what caused the pedal bone damage?

I can probably guess but you don't want that answer.

 

[MillionDollar]

I went through all of this with my Welsh Cob, for a year in fact. He had extremely flat pedal bones and collapsed heels. We tried different types of egg bars as well as medicating his foot and coffin joints........numerous shoes and numerous medications. In the end I took him to RVC for an MRI as vet and I were convinced there was something else going on. There wasn't it was simply foot balance, collapsed heels, flat feet. They told me to put him back in to normal shoes, single toe clip (double toe clips can cause problems, which could have been where my problems started!!!), no long shoes either as they can actually stunt the growth even though the theory is to support, and I swapped to a farrier who did remedial work. 3-4 weeks later he was completely sound and has been for 14 months now. RVC also told me to only work him on a surface, so he never hacks out, and he also never goes on the horse walker.

 

[cptrayes]

RVC also told me to only work him on a surface, so he never hacks out, and he also never goes on the horse walker.

Do the RVC call that sound?

 

[MillionDollar]

Do the RVC call that sound?

Jeez, you really are a piece of work. Yes, he is now 100% sound, on the hard and soft, the reason he is now sound is due to the change of management as well as his shoeing. In fact most people would never have noticed he was unsound before as he was 1/10 lame, and only when lunged on the hard. It was only because I could feel it and he would go very heavy in the hand.

Like the RVC would tell you working him only a surface means there is a lot less pressure on his pedal bone than working on a field or road. Surfaces move, roads don't. No walker, again also means no working on a hard circle, which puts a lot of strain on the foot. He's working Adv Med and winning at Elementary and will come out at Medium soon (BD).

 

[KatB]

MD, I'm really sorry but the way you phrased it does sound like he is only up to working on a surface, which to me (and OP whose horse is an eventer) isn't sound either. A lot of "lame" horses with foot problems are sound on perfect surfaces with shoes on, but aren't sound for any level of normal work, which to me includes working outside the menage.

 

[Leg_end]

If you want to keep shoes on then I'd be looking at feeding a decent supplement (pro balance, pro hoof or something similar) to get the foot growing and TBH I'd be having a serious chat with the farrier as to why he hasn't changed his shoeing to fix the angles and get on top of the changes before those changes lamed your horse.

I'd get a recommendation from your vet for a good remedial farrier and work with them and I'd think about the possibility of removing shoes over the winter to give his feet a chance to recover. Barefoot full time isn't for everyone but there's a reason we used to give horses a break from shoes after the comp season.

Edited to add - MD I thought exactly the same as CPT,KB & A2. A horse that can only work on a surface is still compromised in some way as it would be lame if you worked it outside those parameters. Glad it's a compromise that works for you but, for me, it wouldn't be good enough.

 

[Angua2]

Do the RVC call that sound?

Jeez, you really are a piece of work.

A little uncalled for MD, as to be fair when I read your reply that was the thoughts going though my mind. I am glad it worked out for you.

 

[pearcider]

Come on everyone dont argue lets just suggest things that worked!

star:

as you know Ive had/ got horses with variuos problem with there feet. My advice would be you know your horse and what works for him. Chat to your vet and farrier...maybe get them dowm at the same time to chat about the way you can all move forward.

What works with some horses does not work with others.

We had one horse with V flat soles (Leo) we tried all sorts of super shoes on him and it turned out he like just simple pads and natural balsnce best.

Where as my adv mare ran best in normal shoes and sylicon pads on just for events

The othe horse (most current one) has done best in natural balance (although it was a while before she go used to them) and she has pads in in the summer. We have found that turning her out for 8 weeks in the winter also really helps.

With all 3 horses they are/were shod no more than 4 week apart so the fronts never get long. I am luck as my brother is a farrier and is very in to all the high tech stuff that you can use. But he also agrees go with what suites ther horse.

Bee has biotin (not a fancy brand) and her feet have never looked better.

With all horses we are very routine about there work loads etc and I also find this helps.

You know me so if you get stuck and would like to chat to me or my brother you can

 

[ester]

I'd have been really sad if I'd been told F could only work on a surface, partly because we don't actually have one! (and I didn't do a circle for a long time either!). I thought he might end up just doing light hacking (instead of proper hacking ) and that would have been ok with me but surface only work he would have been retired. I am more careful with regards to what he does on certain surfaces as in the past he has been worked pretty hard whatever the ground was like as weight was more important.

Star given his age the vet did put suspected DJD down in coffin joint of lame foot (due to nerve blocks) but the angles were the same in both feet and no signs of arthritis on x-ray. Does your lad move straight? F doesn't and vet was half expecting to find sidebones but nope! It was only watching slow mo vids that I realised quite how laterally he was landing and having watched them I would be really surprised if he didn't have some collateral ligament issues going on at that point either. I suspect his feet and movement had been like that for a long time but that something just pushed it over the edge.

 

[Tonks]

I had this problem with a TB mare I had. I have several suggestions:

1. Have you tried 'EquiPak'?

http://www.blfarriersupplies.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=89

It is a gel (blue/Grey packaging) that is adminstered by your farrier and is applied before the shoe goes on. It then 'sits' in the shoe and acts like a shock absorber or padding that protects and supports a thin sole. I suppose it also helps with any kind of pedal bone rotation or problem there as the foot is somewhat 'protected'. It has to be really looked after though, as it does have a tendancy to fall out - it is expensive! But, it may help to distribute the forces through the foot more evenly.

2. Have a read of this article - it's about biomechanics, shoeing and problems. Although it does talk about barefoot, it is pertinent to your situation and you may be able to glean some helpful information.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/31...r&utm_medium=lameness&utm_campaign=04-03-2013

Good luck.

 

[MegaBeast]

My mare (TBxID but looked full TB) had "typical" TB feet which improved hugely when I really started to manage her feet. The horn quality was poor and they were very flat with low heels (the only criticism on her vetting as it happens).

I used to put eucalyptus oil on her soles and half way up the walls (to about 1cm above the nail holes) then Kevin Bacon liquid dressing on top of that over the whole hoof capsule. If her soles started to get soft (ie could scrape white bits when picking her feet out) then I'd put Pro Feet Rock Hard on the sole for a couple of days. And I'd always use the Life Data Hoof Disinfectant after each shoeing. It was the eucalyptus oil that gave us the break through - it's cheapest to buy off eBay, I used to get in 1L bottles for about £20 and that would last for months.

Whilst her feet never gave her soundness issues they weren't the best when I had her and I could never persuade her to eat any kind of supplement but the above regime really improved the hoof quality and growth rate, she only lost two shoes in the four years I owned her!

I was given a tip the other day which came from a lecturing farrier at Hereford - buy udder cream, slap it thickly on the coronary band and put supersize rubber over reach boots on the top. The boots will massage the cream in and this will encourage growth.

 

[cptrayes]

Star I have struggled with formulating an answer for you because as a barefooter I would of course take off his shoes. However, I think from what you say that you want to event the horse this summer and you won't be able to do that if you do, of course. I understand that passion, I used to have it too.

So I would echo everyone who says to get the horse onto the same diet as you would if it was going barefoot, including turning out overnight and not during the day, feeding a "barefoot formulated" mineral supplement with yeast in, avoiding alfalfa, adding energy with oil not carbs.

Then your only options are the advice of a seriously good remedial farrier, and a choice of pads.

Those won't do much in the short term (and possibly not the long term) to put right the angles which are causing stresses inside the feet. I feel obliged to say that in your position I would be extremely worried about eventing him until those angles are corrected. By this I mean corrected internally, not by the addition of wedges, whether those are wedges of shoes or wedges of hoof wall crafted by a farrier.

The ddft/collateral ligament/impar ligament strains which often result from the poor angles have a very poor prognosis for recovery by conventional treatment and could end his competition career or even his life.

Please let me stress that I understand completely the drive to get out there and event. But if this is a horse you want to have in competition next year and the year after, then from what you have described of his feet, the path that you are choosing carries a fair few risks.

It is of course possible that his feet are not as bad as the impression that I have formed of them from what you have written and that it will be a simple matter to keep him sound in the right shoes and pads.

 

[cptrayes]

I have taken a close look at your xrays and as far as I can see the mediolateral balance, which your vets described as good, is out by maybe a couple of degrees on each front foot, with the right fore being noticeably the worse of the two, and the higher side being the medial, inside aspect.

 

[glamourpuss]

MillionDollar it's interesting you've had problems with double toe clipped shoes. They seem to have been the thing that have caused the issues with one of mine mind you it was also a terrible farrier putting the shoes on.
Even though this horse is shod I have thought about trying a 'barefoot diet' on him to help his feet. Problem is he's also a bit 'ulcer ish' which I control feeding alfalfa

 

[Goldenstar]

MillionDollar it's interesting you've had problems with double toe clipped shoes. They seem to have been the thing that have caused the issues with one of mine mind you it was also a terrible farrier putting the shoes on.
Even though this horse is shod I have thought about trying a 'barefoot diet' on him to help his feet. Problem is he's also a bit 'ulcer ish' which I control feeding alfalfa

All but one of my have been BF horses are perfectly ok with being fed alfalfa and I was not even sure it was alfalfa with the fourth just eliminated it as it was easy to do so.
so I would just make all the other changes if your using the alfalfa as a ulcer management management tool.
The grazing at night one really makes a difference from what I have seen here.
One of my six months on six months off horses has just finished his six months shod this time in front shoes with quarter clips , they have been for him a big sucess his finished the period with really good looking feet, all shoes are only as good as the person who puts them on.

 

[vikkiandmonica]

Wings had thin soles so for about a year he had pads on the were filled with a cushioning gel. I can't remember what they were called but they had a frog support that looked a bit like a Christmas tree. They came off after just less than a year and he's had no problems since and has gone barefoot without any fuss.

 

[TPO]

Doubt I'll have anything to say that you'd be interested in but I just had a skim of your blog post and a couple of things jumped out.

Re ok to shoe RF but too painful to shoe, even with pads, LF. So I'm assuming (risky I know) that you've no choice but to have him "barefoot"/unshod for at least 14days?

If he is sound once weaned off bute then why do you need to remedially shoe? I appreciate you may wish to stud for eventing so shoes are required but if he's sound why does he need remedial shoeing? Once you start bringing wedges and heart/egg bars into the equation it's a different kettle of fish from just shoeing correctly (ie balanced) with stud holes.

If he was sound before and farrier was doing a good, balanced job etc, then comes sound without shoes after bute how will be not go lame again when shod the same?

 

[ihatework]

Only thing I would add, is while there is a free cushings test voucher avilable (which there is) it might be worth running that test.

I had (and still have retired) a horse that showed similar foot issues. At the time I went down pretty much the route you are proposing and managed it for a short while before eventually admitting defeat and retiring the horse.

Fastforward a couple of years and I had a sneaky suspicion on the cushings thing.
Ran a test - sky high result of 340 (on an early teens 7/8th TB, so not an obvious candidate) - started on prascend and an immediate improvement seen on footiness on hard ground .... I suspect this horse has been very mildly sub-laminitic (hence more footy) for a few years ...

 

[star]

TPO - not entirely sure I understand all your questions but basically although he appeared sound prior to this incident with his left fore when they nerve blocked his left fore yesterday he went lame on his right fore so his feet are clearly causing him discomfort.

He is barefoot in front for the next couple of weeks but cant be turned out without padding on the soles of his feet. His soles are so thin he is not sound enough to walk around the fiekd without shoes on and the vet was worried about him bruising himself further. At the moment I've padded his soles with cotton wool and he's wearing hoof boots and is sound in these.

He is 14 this year. He missed almost all of last season due to a tendon tweak he sustained getting caught up in a fence in the field. Wish I'd taken his shoes off then as we did months of walking as rehab but as far as I was aware there wasn't a problem. When I bought him he had collapsed heels and long toes and the farrier has worked hard to improve these. I think now when you look at his foot from the outside his angles dont look too bad but clearly the xrays show a different story.

Like I said before I'm not averse to barefoot - my other one hunts barefoot and rarely needs attention from a farrier - he has never been shod and has super feet. This one is an eventer though - I want to be able to use studs if needed so need shoes on him therefore want to try and manage this problem with shoes if possible. I appreciate that's not always possible though and if he has to go through some kind of barefoot rehab then that's what I'll do.

He lives out 24/7 which I really need him to carry on doing due to time constraints with odd working hours and also it helps to manage him as he has a mild dust allergy. Feed wise he needs quite a bit of energy giving food when he's eventing but if there's a way to do that that's better for his feet then I'm happy to listen to ideas.