Manchester clean air zone

[SantaVera]

I can see the good side of this but is anyone adversely affected?

 

[JCW]

I can see the good side of this but is anyone adversely affected?

It’s a stealth tax as far as I’m concerned and a lot of people will be adversely affected.

if they were genuinely concerned about clean air/climate change they would be improving public transport so fewer people would use their cars. But they are not. They are bringing in a tax that will affect businesses who will just pass the charges onto their customers.

 

[Roxylola]

Not directly impacted yet, I have a small petrol car. But I can see things like my dog food delivery being an issue. They deliver to my area weekly and quite probably would be paying a charge multiple times a week due to the area they cover. So if their delivery charge increases and I decide to drive to collect in store will 20, 30, 50 other people do the same? Surely that's worse than one diesel van!

 

[Ruftysdad]

We will be as we live near the airport, very near the border with Manchester If we need a delivery from the Manchester area it will probably be more costly. If we use the airport and use a taxi to get home that will increase the cost substantially. I believe at present it is just commercial vehicles, but if all vehicles are included it will affect us hugely as we regularly travel to Greater Manchester

 

[ycbm]

Here is why Manchester needs it. The dark line in the sky is pollution over Manchester after 2 days of windless conditions. I took this photo from my garden last week. The high rise buildings like the Hilton are normally visible from that point, they are smothered in that filthy smog. People will be dying down there because of it.

 

[ycbm]

It’s a stealth tax as far as I’m concerned and a lot of people will be adversely affected.

if they were genuinely concerned about clean air/climate change they would be improving public transport so fewer people would use their cars. But they are not. They are bringing in a tax that will affect businesses who will just pass the charges onto their customers.

A fortune has been spent on improving public transport in Manchester in the last 30 years, new tram lines have only just been added and more improvements are scheduled this year.

The truth is that most people won't stop their single passenger journeys in cars until they are forced to, we are wedded to our personal use cars.

 

[Louby]

Im affected, I drive a compliant car luckily but have a horsebox, hubby's car, our work car I imagine wont be compliant once they include cars too. I think all the UK will be involved sooner or later. Most wont be able to afford the 'tax' or £30k plus to get a compliant vehicle, its tragic how many small business's will go under. Incidently our area comes up as 1 on the air quality website checker

 

[Jango]

It's been fought against in Manchester, they have just delayed some of the scheme roll out. Once it's introduced it will cost me £10 every time I use my lorry. That's annoying but not prohibitive. However the impact on small businesses who need a van is going to be awful and I really feel for people's jobs. A young window cleaner (for example) won't be able to afford £30k for a new van or an extra £70 a week. Larger businesses will be able to afford the newer vans and will price out small businesses. With fuel prices and post-pandemic this isn't the time to decimate small business.

In Manchester the public transport is good if you want to get from the suburbs to centre and back, most people I know use the tram/train/buses/park and ride for city centre visits. I work in the city centre and take the tram when I go in. However the public transport provision within the suburbs is dreadful. For example it takes me 10-15 mins to drive to my stables, 3.5 miles away. It would take 56 mins to get there on public transport according to Google maps which is just ridiculous. In the summer I try and cycle there as much as I can (20mins). But I just don't feel safe cycling in the winter when it's icy/wet/dark.

They would be best imposing the Caz just in the city centre (as Birmingham have done) where the pollution is bad and public transport is available. Give businesses longer to upgrade their vehicles and slowly expand the zone (if it's needed).

 

[ycbm]

There is a financial support scheme to replace non compliant vehicles, you can check, scheme here. Badly affected by lack of supply at the moment, of course. My van, a 3.5t 64 plate Ducato, does not get charged.

https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/

 

[ycbm]

They would be best imposing the Caz just in the city centre (as Birmingham have done)

The problem is Greater Machester, as you know but possibly others don't, sits in a bowl of big hills and when the wind drops, that pollution I pictured above collects really quickly and is killing people with lung conditions.

In that view above, I can see equal size hills to the one I'm stood on to the hills behind and to the east of Greater Manchester. It's a cauldron for the collection of toxic fug.
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[SantaVera]

I read on Facebook a post from a hay and straw delivery company a new wagon will cost them 160000k the subsidy is 9 k,if they buy a suitable second hand they won't even get the 9 k

 

[ycbm]

I read on Facebook a post from a hay and straw delivery company a new wagon will cost them 160000k the subsidy is 9 k,if they buy a suitable second hand they won't even get the 9 k

They're going to have to stop doing small deliveries with a huge wagon, if they already do. If they can fill the wagon the additional cost on each bale will be minimal.

People are dying, it has to happen. I agree the timing is dreadful, but there's never a good time, look at the same fight over London, so long ago now.

 

[Roxylola]

I agree something has to happen. I'm not sure this is it. I genuinely looked at electric vehicles at one point, but living in a terraced house with on street parking wherever you can get how could I charge it?
I think inside the m60 maybe, as said earlier public transport in and out is good, but there's nothing around the edge - we need a ring road bus service. And I think there needs to be a residents pass or something where you pay a heavily reduced rate. £10 a day seems OK til its £3650 a year just to get to work and the horse.
And what are the plans for the money? How will it be making the air cleaner? At least London was more honest calling it a congestion charge.

 

[Louby]

It would cost lots £10 to get to the public transport, the cameras are everywhere., there is no reliable public transport near us, well an hourly bus to get anywhere near the tram stops, so we would have to drive and pass the cameras to use it. I think its been badly and greedily thought out, Manchesters scheme covers almost 500 square miles, Londons is London, not the suburbs. If there has to be a compromise, why not do the City centre, provide electric buses to ferry people in from large car parks, just a wild thought from the top of my head. The retrofits apparently dont work, the financial scheme (loan) of about 5k will not go far towards a 30k vehicle. It will affect us all in the future, Im not sure what the delay is as I cant see whats changed. 3.5t vans and taxi's were 2023 anyway.
From what Ive read, the airports are the worse culprits but they are exempt.

 

[criso]

least London was more honest calling it a congestion charge.

It sounds like what is being discussed here is more like the LEZ, ULEZ in London not the Congestion Charge.
The LEZ/ULEZ is the low emission zone which restricts vehicles that don't meet certain emissions standards.

Congestion charge applies to all vehicles regardless of whether they are clean or not but only applies at certain times of the day so deliveries could be made overnight to avoid this charge.

With a non compliant vehicle during the day, you can in theory end up paying both.

The congestion charge only applies to central London, the LEZ goes right out to the M25 and the charge is £100. The ULEZ which is stricter than the LEZ is between the two going out to residential areas within the North and South circular.

 

[SantaVera]

They're going to have to stop doing small deliveries with a huge wagon, if they already do. If they can fill the wagon the additional cost on each bale will be minimal.

People are dying, it has to happen. I agree the timing is dreadful, but there's never a good time, look at the same fight over London, so long ago now.

I completely agree with a clean air zone. I never said I didnt. My initial question was the impact it would have. There have been several relevant and interesting replies on this thread, some highlighting issues i'd not thought about. Like I said in my original post , I can see the good side of it, I never stated that I was against it. But then again ycbm you are very argumentative but in this case. at least as far as I am concerned you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. And BTW this company opperates with a wagon and drag, it doesnt do small deliveries, it only does full loads to farms and the like, approximately 28 tonnes of straw or hay at a time.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s a feature of the current time that these things are imposed without any care for the fate of hardworking people often self employed who just don’t have the wiggle room to buy for example a new van .
They look to the needs of large companies who have a organised voice and the non working but just ignore everyone in the middle .
It’s the same with the change over to electric heating .

I am not saying nothing should be done but I am in favour of road pricing across the board with higher rates for the centres of cities .
We then phase out road tax over a while .
The end of road tax and the need to reduce mileage in cities needs to be dealt with in a joined up way .

 

[SantaVera]

another one put on ignore, YCBM imo will argue black is white just to be contrary. The forum will be much pleasanter without me having to come across her illogical rants.

 

[RHM]

This will affect me too, luckily my car is exempt but the horsebox isn’t. I have to drive into Manchester every day for work, as a sales rep so not going to an office. My job would be impossible on the public transport that Manchester has but my colleagues in London have no issue there. Like others have said getting into the city centre and around the tram network isn’t too bad but the suburbs are terrible. The area they have chose here is too broad.
I can absorb the cost of £10 a day for the box begrudgingly. However, I know many small businesses won’t be able to. For them this is grossly unfair. As far as I am aware the grants are only available to people living in area too. People like me who live on the outskirts are not eligible.

 

[Mynstrel]

Y

I can see the good side of this but is anyone adversely affected?

Yep, we'll have to pay to drive less than half a mile in GM whenever we take the box out. Why they can't do a number of freebies each month as other councils have done, or maybe something clever where you have to appear on more than one camera each way to cover the people who live on the edge and only travel outwards is beyond me. If we lived in the middle it wouldn't be as bad but as it stands is just a joke.

The worst bit is that where we are based the main source of pollution is the m6 (which isn't charged) and even then our air pollution rating is still only 1.

 

[ycbm]

Y

Yep, we'll have to pay to drive less than half a mile in GM whenever we take the box out. Why they can't do a number of freebies each month as other councils have done, or maybe something clever where you have to appear on more than one camera each way to cover the people who live on the edge and only travel outwards is beyond me. If we lived in the middle it wouldn't be as bad but as it stands is just a joke.

That does seem very unfair, can you complain to your MP with an explanation of the impact? Especially if it's going to affect house values close to the line.
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[criso]

That does seem very unfair, can you complain to your MP with an explanation of the impact? Especially if it's going to affect horse values close to the line.
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Can't see it changing.

The same happened in London when they introduced the LEZ, there were yards just inside the M25 that were affected, some were lucky to be able to create a route out that avoided it, some didn't and had to put up with it and some have a camera free route while technically being inside.

People who have the wrong sort of horsebox just inside are a tiny minority of road users and if any exemption were allowed, it could have been abused unless you are going to stop any similar lorry to check it actually has horses and not other loads.

I was at a yard well inside when it first came in, people switched to 3.5 compliant lorries or cars and trailers. It didn't affect horse values or yard prices but it did mean a couple of venues stopped running shows or clinics as most people wouldn't be able to attend.

 

[Birker2020]

I don't know about the Manchester clear air zone but I would have been impacted with the clean air zone in Birmingham. The job I applied for and decided against for this very reason was just inside the clean air zone and it would have cost me £8 a day to work and park inside it after 12 months as I would have been only just inside the salary limit. As I need a bigger car for towing and the job was no where near the station and would have taken me about 50 minutes by bus I decided against taking it as I'd have been forced to pay it and £40 a week is a lot to lose. There is a 2 year exemption for residents within the Clean Air Zone. One-year exemption for individuals travelling into the zone for work, who earn a certain amout and work more than 18 hours per week and a 1 year exemption for commercial vehicles registered within the zone.

It impacts a huge amount of people, not just residents but visitors and workers. There are a massive number of factories in the area and its still very much an old fashioned industrial hub and Digbeth and Deritend.

I don't know about Manchester but the one in Birmingham took over huge attractions in the city like Thinktank, Alex Theatre and Sympony Hall, Public Library and Art Museum, Custard Factory not to mention the Jewellery Quarter that attracts huge numbers of visitors per year. And of course the shopping which is totally amazing. So I think it will have a huge economical implication.

 

[stangs]

I don't know about Manchester but the one in Birmingham took over huge attractions in the city like Thinktank, Alex Theatre and Sympony Hall, Public Library and Art Museum, Custard Factory not to mention the Jewellery Quarter that attracts huge numbers of visitors per year. And of course the shopping which is totally amazing. So I think it will have a huge economical implication.

Surely visitors (from abroad at least) aren't going to be driving around Birmingham to begin with.

 

[Birker2020]

Surely visitors (from abroad at least) aren't going to be driving around Birmingham to begin with.

I wasn't saying people from abroad. I'd say the majority of people visiting Birmingham are from other towns and cities nearby. The bullring and the rag market used to attract huge numbers of people living in surrounding areas at one time, I expect it is still the case now.

When we were teens it was a day out going to Birmingham, spending money on clothes, records and chips!

 

[Mynstrel]

Can't see it changing.

The same happened in London when they introduced the LEZ, there were yards just inside the M25 that were affected, some were lucky to be able to create a route out that avoided it, some didn't and had to put up with it and some have a camera free route while technically being inside.

People who have the wrong sort of horsebox just inside are a tiny minority of road users and if any exemption were allowed, it could have been abused unless you are going to stop any similar lorry to check it actually has horses and not other loads.

I was at a yard well inside when it first came in, people switched to 3.5 compliant lorries or cars and trailers. It didn't affect horse values or yard prices but it did mean a couple of venues stopped running shows or clinics as most people wouldn't be able to attend.

I think it's Portsmouth that has freebies each month so the infrequent users aren't affected as much. Something like that would be fair and the technology is obviously there to do it.

It will affect show venues near us, we have lots of small boxes in our area and they majority are older vehicles so will be affected. One of the most popular ones is outside the zone but most of their competitors aren't so they're going to be hit quite hard I expect, people are going to cut down how often they go out and when a £15 class becomes £25 plus all the hassle of having to remember to fuel up on the days you're out anyway it makes things a lot less fun and hits motivation.

I know the small businesses are going to be hit hard by it all but at least they can pass the cost on, when it's a pleasure vehicle used a few times a month for no profit it makes a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[rowan666]

I fail to see how any good can come from this. It will add a huge cost to those planning on competing and hiring facilities in the area so much so that I suspect it will put many off going and they'll simply find other venues in areas not affected and those who are will suffer. As mentioned above in another area this has been rolled out, venues closed because people weren't willing to pay. I know something needs to be done but I don't feel like taxing people further will do much besides having a negative effect on local economy. Big businesses will cope, many smaller ones will not

 

[Mynstrel]

That does seem very unfair, can you complain to your MP with an explanation of the impact? Especially if it's going to affect horse values close to the line.
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Worth a try I suppose, although she's not known for responding.. might give it a go though, mainly for the freebies option, at least then I'll know I've tried.

 

[criso]

I fail to see how any good can come from this. It will add a huge cost to those planning on competing and hiring facilities in the area so much so that I suspect it will put many off going and they'll simply find other venues in areas not affected and those who are will suffer. As mentioned above in another area this has been rolled out, venues closed because people weren't willing to pay. I know something needs to be done but I don't feel like taxing people further will do much besides having a negative effect on local economy. Big businesses will cope, many smaller ones will not

If that is referring to what I said about the LEZ, venues didn't close, a couple of livery yards chose not to hold clinics or very small unaffiliated shows on their premises but carried on as livery yards and most still exist charging much more than yards outside. There was lots of noise and complaining at the time but people just updated their vehicles and carried on.

 

[JCW]

I fail to see how any good can come from this. It will add a huge cost to those planning on competing and hiring facilities in the area so much so that I suspect it will put many off going and they'll simply find other venues in areas not affected and those who are will suffer. As mentioned above in another area this has been rolled out, venues closed because people weren't willing to pay. I know something needs to be done but I don't feel like taxing people further will do much besides having a negative effect on local economy. Big businesses will cope, many smaller ones will not

You are correct. I have already seen comments on Facebook saying that they won’t be able to afford to compete at venues in side the clean air zone because of the additional cost.