Mares Vs Geldings/Stallions- Worlds top horses

[SatansLittleHelper]

I'm always interested in the debate about mares Vs geldings as everyone seems to say that a good mare will do anything for you.
I'm more of a gelding person personally, although I've started to see some of the appeal of mares over the last few years
Almost without exception Im told a good mare is better than a good gelding all day long, and this question isn't to try to disprove that or have a go at mares etc.
BUT if mares are so much better etc then why are the worlds most top class horses mainly geldings or stallions..?? I realise there are some exceptions of course but this seems to be the norm across all disciplines.
I'm genuinely wondering why mares don't make it to the top as often..??

 

[milliepops]

I am not an expert but I would guess there's a few things going on, things that spring to my mind are:
I think some mares are prone to being affected by seasons so there is more consistency with a gelding (or stallion, perhaps). it you're wanting a competition horse, it's inconvenient if they're having a bad day because of hormones, and additional faff to control those. I say this as the owner of 5 mares. They are fabulous but they aren't the same horse every ride

Probably as a consequence of the above there's maybe a bit of a culture of people just not selecting mares for top level sport so they don't make it up the levels in training anyway in the same volumes.

I think that the way that e.g. MSJ specifically select the mares for competition and retain them for their breeding programme rather than standing a load of stallions might be changing the tide on this.
That and embryo transfer becoming commonplace for competition mares. whereas previously a mare would have to take a couple of years out of competition to carry a foal, now you can carry on competing them.

 

[milliepops]

FWIW I don't think mares are "so much better", I very much enjoy having them as I find them really interesting to work with on a personal level, but I am sure that good geldings or stallions are just as good

 

[Caol Ila]

Mares' seasons affect their behaviour. Not every mare, but some of them. She might spend your World Championship dressage test screaming at the stallions, which isn't ideal. It can be controlled with Regumate and such, and some mares' seasons are more controllable than others depending on the individual, but it is a thing you need to work with.

But here's my theory on the actual reason: you need more mares than stallions to make more top class horses. Mares with great bloodlines and talent are likely to have short competitive careers because they are even more valuable as broodmares. If she's had a long career and retires at 17 or 18 or whatever, she's potentially not a safe maiden, and who wants to risk a valuable, top class competition mare at the end of her career? So, she's more likely to find herself in the broodmare pasture quite young, when it's safer for her to have lots of babies. A stallion can also be competed and still breed, while a mare needs to have a lot of time out in order to have a foal. She only has one per year, if that, while with AI, stallions can potentially service hundreds of mares while winning the Grand Prix.

Of course, with embryo transfer, top mares are able to have it all -- the competitive career and the baby. But that technology is fairly new and I think quite expensive. Not everyone will be able to do that. But we are seeing more mares at the highest levels of their sports, and that's probably why.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm a gelding/stallion lover TBH. But, I've always thought perhaps its the same as with humans in high level jobs that it is more male dominated as by nature a woman takes time out of her career to have children (god this could open a can of worms) where a man doesn't need to pause his career path. Do mares get to a certain level and then become more valuable as a broodmare than a competition horse?

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Same as why even in the future there will still be more men in senior positions than females...babies

 

[Caol Ila]

They can also do embryo transfer with humans. Have you seen "The Nest?"

 

[AmyMay]

I suspect that once a mare has reached an optimum age for breeding (and has a good competition record) she’s retired pretty quickly to the nursery.

 

[shortstuff99]

I did a thread on this a few weeks ago, from all studies mares do not behave (ridden) significantly differently than geldings/stallions and are just as successful and it was society thinking men were better that pushed the use of male horses over females.

 

[stormox]

I'm always interested in the debate about mares Vs geldings as everyone seems to say that a good mare will do anything for you.
I'm more of a gelding person personally, although I've started to see some of the appeal of mares over the last few years
Almost without exception Im told a good mare is better than a good gelding all day long, and this question isn't to try to disprove that or have a go at mares etc.
BUT if mares are so much better etc then why are the worlds most top class horses mainly geldings or stallions..?? I realise there are some exceptions of course but this seems to be the norm across all disciplines.
I'm genuinely wondering why mares don't make it to the top as often..??

Because once a mare has proved herself in competition people often breed from them. A mare cannot reproduce and compete like a stallion can.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

https://www.worldofshowjumping.com/...rix-classes-in-2018-The-year-of-the-mare.html

 

[Caol Ila]

It's not easy to study because individual mares experience estrus differently, and it's not easy for behaviorists to gather statistically significant sample sizes. Plenty of mares do change their behaviour during estrus. Anecdotal -- mine. She screams at geldings and boxwalks like a lunatic when her male neighbor's owner takes him out of the stable. When she's in diestrus, she could not care less about the boys. And she's no fun to ride if she's in a really strong heat.

Here's some articles which are well grounded with evidence and they've spoken with vets: https://thehorse.com/19902/mares-behaving-badly-is-it-estrus-or-something-else/

https://thehorse.com/111581/differences-between-mares-and-geldings/

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/managing-mares-in-heat-11641

https://horseandrider.com/horse-health-care/mare-moodiness-31951

 

[milliepops]

It's not easy to study because individual mares experience estrus differently, and it's not easy for behaviorists to gather statistically significant sample sizes.

also makes it a bit tricky I guess if you are looking for your next top horse, because they can also be different throughout the year.
My trickiest one is super difficult early spring and late autumn, coinciding with cycling starting and finishing. Rest of the year she's fairly consistent. One of my retired mares was horrible to school when in season, but jumped better than ever. another one is the same horse all year round (made it tricky to guestimate when she'd be ready to go to stud without zillions of scans). it's a bit of a gamble I guess.

 

[shortstuff99]

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=goeh8vTlquAJ

 

[TheMule]

DSP Alice- reigning World Champion
Weihegold- reigning Olympic champion
Bella Rose- reigning World and European champion
Rioghan Rua- bronze medalist at last Europeans

Nowadays with embryo transfer more mares are coming in/ staying in the sport.

 

[sport horse]

I have quite often done a bit of research on the top showjumping competitions & Championships and it really does seem to be one third stallions, one third geldings and one third mares. However I would say that I do not think the top show jumping riders/producers have any prejudice against one or the other. If they jump they jump!!

 

[Kat]

I have quite often done a bit of research on the top showjumping competitions & Championships and it really does seem to be one third stallions, one third geldings and one third mares. However I would say that I do not think the top show jumping riders/producers have any prejudice against one or the other. If they jump they jump!!

That still indicates a level of prejudice against mares. If it was equal it would be 50% mares and 50% male horses being a combination of geldings and stallions.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In the native pony showing world it's all about stallions. If you look at the Open Ridden ranks 75% of the ponies that go to HOYS and Olympia are stallions. A lot of them will never be bred from and will only ever be show stallions because they have more precence. There are so many that I wouldn't breed from because they are not conformationally good enough but they still stand top of the line because of theor precence.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have often wondered if some amateur horse owners like geldings because they are 'desexed'?

A couple of people have said things to me that made me wonder this. It really appeared that having a neuter was preferable to an entire (male or female) because they weren't comfortable with having a horse that displayed sexual behaviour.

 

[milliepops]

I have often wondered if some amateur horse owners like geldings because they are 'desexed'?

A couple of people have said things to me that made me wonder this. It really appeared that having a neuter was preferable to an entire (male or female) because they weren't comfortable with having a horse that displayed sexual behaviour.

interesting! it's kind of the thing that specifically makes me choose mares, I understand the practicalities obviously as I have a gelding myself, but I prefer the raw nature of the mares even with all the interesting stuff that brings i find the "neutered" horse a bit odd.

 

[paddi22]

I

I have often wondered if some amateur horse owners like geldings because they are 'desexed'?

A couple of people have said things to me that made me wonder this. It really appeared that having a neuter was preferable to an entire (male or female) because they weren't comfortable with having a horse that displayed sexual behaviour.

I think there's definitely something in this. I had geldings for the first 30 odd years I had horses and only dealt with stallions and mares in the last 8 or so years. I def felt a weird jump going from geldings to entires. there is a certain difference wildness in them and a different intensity or rawness as milliepops said. I have so much more respect for my mare than my geldings, awful as that sounds! I love them all but I adore my fiery marey-mare the most and she def has a fierceness the gelding don't have. .

 

[Hallo2012]

interesting! it's kind of the thing that specifically makes me choose mares, I understand the practicalities obviously as I have a gelding myself, but I prefer the raw nature of the mares even with all the interesting stuff that brings i find the "neutered" horse a bit odd.

and for the same reasons i really enjoy working with stallions, i love that *extra* they have that you have to be aware of and work with.

 

[shortstuff99]

Maybe its because I've pretty much always had mares but I never seem to have the issues/problems that lots of others have. I've obviously been trained in the way of the mare from a young age and so I please them ?. I now don't always enjoy the geldings as I find they need constant instruction and that bugs me!

 

[Wishfilly]

I think, historically, it must be about their value as broodmares/for breeding. As embryo transfer becomes more common, I'm sure more and more mares will have the chance to have a full competition career!

 

[ycbm]

it was society thinking men were better that pushed the use of male horses over females.

Was that conclusion reached by a Militant Feminist?

Because the breeding argument seems a lot stronger to me. Horses were machines, they needed to make more the machines, females can't work while they breed, they are more useful to produce more machines than to be one.

Sometimes the simple things are just the truth?
.

 

[shortstuff99]

Was that conclusion reached by a Militant Feminist?

Because the breeding argument seems a lot stronger to me. Horses were machines, they needed to make more the machines, females can't work while they breed, they are more useful to produce more machines than to be one.

Sometimes the simple things are just the truth?
.

No it was actually a Male lead scientist. Here is the summary in Science Mag

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ly_2020-07-02&et_rid=486754869&et_cid=3387192

 

[ycbm]

Well that raises more questions than it answers.

If they overwhelming kept males, not females, how were they born?

I think there are some pieces of that jigsaw missing.
.

 

[Caol Ila]

Archeology is an inexact science, to say the least. Lots of speculation and conjecture, since you can't raise Bronze Age people from the dead and ask them! The researchers themselves said, "Anthropomorphic gender notions may have shaped an ancient preference for male horses, but it’s also possible that more mares were kept alive for breeding purposes, he says. Males were simply more disposable, which is why they turn up more often—especially in ancient trash heaps. Fages speculates that the missing mares’ bodies, if they exist, could have been disposed of in places that scientists haven’t yet discovered."

 

[DabDab]

Because they go off to have babies is the over riding reason, and although the embryo transfer science is there now, it will take a fair while for humans to culturally catch up with it I should think.

I think there is and always will be a preference of stallions over anything else though, particularly in certain disciplines - there is a lot of belief in the presence and sparkle that a stallion has.

I like mares, and prefer them to geldings, and I personally find them easier because I 'get' them more than I do geldings, but I think it's fairly personal, and for a lot of people I think it completely depends on the animal in front of them.

 

[milliepops]

I think there is and always will be a preference of stallions over anything else though, particularly in certain disciplines - there is a lot of belief in the presence and sparkle that a stallion has.

in addition to this, I think for breeding people have sometimes overlooked the influence of the mare and really focussed on the stallion. therefore having a stallion proven in a discipline is really important to market him to breeders.