Mark Todd - what would you have done?

[stormox]

I am in no way condoning beating horses here, I am interested in differing methods and their results.

All the people who are slating Mark Todd here, how would you have got the horse to jump in?

The horse, presumably, had refused the step previous to the video, hence being asked to go through and over the easier options and Mark being prepared ( with the branch) for a stop at the bigger drop.

On the day, he got the horse to jump in. Everyone there was happy at the time, cheering etc.

How would other people have approached the situation? Bearing in mind this is a xc clinic and time probably limited.

 

[wills_91]

If I was him I would like to think I would have left it on a good note, when the horse confidently went down the small drop. Not everything can be solved in a clinic, giving the rider some tools to go home with and work on it would have been more beneficial.

 

[meleeka]

I think there was a small step that the horse was eventually happy to go in. I don’t think it was necessary on that day, with as you say, limited time, for the horse to go off the bigger one. I’d have got the rider to the point of the smaller step and explained to them that practice would make perfect and left them with the tools to progress the horse at home.

What actually happened was that ego got in the way.

 

[ycbm]

I've already said on the other thread that the first thing I'd have done is got the others to move to the other side so the horse was jumping towards them not away from them. Then I'd have asked one that was jumping fluently to give me a lead. And if a maximum of 3 tries at that failed I would have run the horse through the water it was happy to do, taken it home and worked at another time on a smaller step.
.

 

[Shilasdair]

Trainers should never resort to chasing a horse - either with lunge whips, lead ropes, and particularly with bits of trees.
It's completely pointless.
The issue is that the horse is not going forward from the rider's aids, so the rider has to fix it themselves - either by using stronger leg aids, or by reinforcing them with a whip.

I should add that the rider has to be 100% confident that the horse is within his capabilities, not in pain, and the ground work has been carried out in order to set the him up for success.
But horses, like humans, sometimes say 'No thanks' to work - and either the rider must correct that, or retire the horse.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would have spent ages letting the horse stare at the water. And then probably got off the horse, and stood in the water myself and encouraged him to step down. And then given him a huge fuss for doing something totally ordinary for an event horse, remounted with soggy feet and ridden the last thing the horse was comfortable with - the canter through and jump out.

Which is why I am not an Olympic eventer.

 

[sakura]

I don't know, I'm not a professional trainer. What I do know is that MT's actions are completely unjustifiable

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Jump towards the others, have a lead as ycbm said. Or called it a day as the horse was happy over the smaller one.
I suspect giving clinics like that is as frustrating for the clinician as it is futile for most riders really but neither of those things are the horse’s fault.

 

[TheLoneWanderer]

I don't know, I'm not a professional trainer. What I do know is that MT's actions are completely unjustifiable

I do not agree. His action where no where near as bad as they could have been and the fact that this has taken 2 years to come out says a lot. I am not one of those namby pamby people. If a horse is being asked to do something it I'd capable of doing then it is made to do it. Simple really.

 

[Afon_34]

A new article has surfaced from a spectator that day, will try & find the link again

 

[Zuzan]

I've already said on the other thread that the first thing I'd have done is got the others to move to the other side so the horse was jumping towards them not away from them. Then I'd have asked one that was jumping fluently to give me a lead. And if a maximum of 3 tries at that failed I would have run the horse through the water it was happy to do, taken it home and worked at another time on a smaller step.
.

And I think we have to acknowledge that this isn't the first instance where a previously respected professional has come unstuck because of the "Clinic" must get a result on the day mindset .. I think another question has to be directed at the participant .. what preparation should have been done before attending this clinic.. ?

 

[Sandstone1]

In that situation, where he had other people to teach, I would have got them to jump the last thing they jumped nicely and left it at that. How is chasing and hitting a horse going to make it less frightened? Its the same as hitting a horse to get it in to a box. You might get it in once but the next time you try it will be worse. Back to basics, let it learn there is nothing to be scared of. What has he taught that horse? When you go near water you get chased and hurt. Thats going to help!

 

[sakura]

I do not agree. His action where no where near as bad as they could have been and the fact that this has taken 2 years to come out says a lot. I am not one of those namby pamby people. If a horse is being asked to do something it I'd capable of doing then it is made to do it. Simple really.

and I disagree with you, maybe I'm "namby pampy" but I don't think his actions were at all correct

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I do not agree. His action where no where near as bad as they could have been.

oh, so that’s ok then DR?

 

[Sandstone1]

I do not agree. His action where no where near as bad as they could have been and the fact that this has taken 2 years to come out says a lot. I am not one of those namby pamby people. If a horse is being asked to do something it I'd capable of doing then it is made to do it. Simple really.[/QUOTE
Thats really sad.

 

[honetpot]

I've already said on the other thread that the first thing I'd have done is got the others to move to the other side so the horse was jumping towards them not away from them. Then I'd have asked one that was jumping fluently to give me a lead. And if a maximum of 3 tries at that failed I would have run the horse through the water it was happy to do, taken it home and worked at another time on a smaller step.
.

I think this is my preferred option, because there will not be someone behind with a branch the next time it happens, and not everyone rides as well as Mark Todd, so you have to weight the situation in the riders favour, so the horse takes the preferred option.
My version of this was a pro XC rider getting on my daughter's horse in a lesson, because it wouldn't canter on the inside of a wing on a small circle. I would have made the O bigger, they insisted he could do it, got on him, frightened him so much that he was eventually running in blind panic, and then he shut down and stood in a corner shaking.
I think in a teaching situation, you have to be careful your ego doesn't get the best of you, we are all learning all the time, and sometimes leaving it for another day, is the best lesson you can teach someone. As I said to that 'instructor', the horse has to come out having thought it's done well.
At a fairly large show we dismantled a WHP fence, so a small child could get a pony to go over it, We had a fair sized audience, most were just the for the day out, when the pony eventually trotted over the pole through the wings they got a round of applause, so it was a learning experience for everyone.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would hope that if I had been the rider (highly unlikely I've never been an enthusiastic jumper), I would have told MT to put his branch where the sun don't shine. I would not have objected to having a 'swishing' noise made behind the horse to apply some pressure but that exhibition was disgraceful.

 

[TPO]

and I disagree with you, maybe I'm "namby pampy" but I don't think his actions were at all correct

TLW is Dun Roamins new account. Wouldn't pay any heed to anything they post. If the history of the last 25 or so accounts has taught us anything it's that they set out to antagonise and create drama.

Edited...schoolboy error of replying before reading all replies. If I had I'd have seen everyone else point out its DRs again. Sorry ??‍

 

[sakura]

TLW is Dun Roamins new account. Wouldn't pay any heed to anything they post. If the history of the last 25 or so accounts has taught us anything it's that they set out to antagonise and create drama.

Edited...schoolboy error of replying before reading all replies. If I had I'd have seen everyone else point out its DRs again. Sorry ??‍

Duly noted, thank you!

 

[Cortez]

In that situation, where he had other people to teach, I would have got them to jump the last thing they jumped nicely and left it at that. How is chasing and hitting a horse going to make it less frightened? Its the same as hitting a horse to get it in to a box. You might get it in once but the next time you try it will be worse. Back to basics, let it learn there is nothing to be scared of. What has he taught that horse? When you go near water you get chased and hurt. Thats going to help!

This is simply not true. I have had many, many bad loaders to retrain. Some of them are frightened and need reassuring and patience, some of them are not and need convincing that titting about will result in some well timed smacks on the bum. NONE of them have failed to load consistently and politely without argument after time spent training.

 

[Sandstone1]

This is simply not true. I have had many, many bad loaders to retrain. Some of them are frightened and need reassuring and patience, some of them are not and need convincing that titting about will result in some well timed smacks on the bum. NONE of them have failed to load consistently and politely without argument after time spent training.

Possibly because they were more scared of you than going in to the box. Not how I want a horse to be. I would rather they do something because they trust me not because they are scared of me.

 

[EchoInterrupted]

I'm a dog trainer, not a horse trainer, but my first thought would be try ycbm's approach, and if that doesn't work, go back a step further. I would consider (on a different day) taking the rider out of the equation (the horse is probably more confident doing this just on its own, without having to deal with an extra bit of wobbly weight on top that can knock them off balance), then work through a series of different combinations of the different slopes on a lunge line. I would probably have the horse jump out of the water onto the bank before jumping in from the same bank so they're familiar with the footing and depth. I personally would use clickers and rewards (chaff or something similar) because this is what I'm used to from dog training (and also what they use to train much larger and more dangerous zoo animals to volunteer for blood draws and other medical procedures, so there's no reason for it not to work with horses). I want a horse who loves going off banks into water and is confident and enthusiastic about it, not one that does it because they feel they have no choice. Once I've reached that phase successfully on the lunge (probably wouldn't take long with the horse in the video given it's already confident cantering through water), I would add the person back in. Obviously this wouldn't fit in the space of that one clinic (I would've just tried ycbm's approach and then finished on a positive note if that wasn't working).

Is it the slower approach? Definitely. And it surely won't win me any gold metals at the Olympics. But my riding ambitions also end at the lower levels of BE and it would mean I have a horse that actively enjoys the work, is confident about the work, and has a more positive relationship with me. If I say I "love" horses, but then whip the horse around the x-country course, it's not really the horse I love is it... probably more the riding and the adrenaline rush. Coming back to horses after 7 years out doing dog training was a bit mind bending, especially given that my youth with horses was all using traditional training and the attitude towards horses was all based on dominance, etc. It especially has made it really difficult to ride at riding schools with very unresponsive horses who are shut down, where you feel you don't have much option but to use the whip a lot to back up your leg. I'm still trying to find my footing since coming back to it nearly two years ago. So often horses are telling us they aren't having fun and we don't listen. Given it's a hobby for me (not like I'm using horses to plow a field or something), is that fair to them, especially when it is within our power to change the training to make it fun for them?

 

[cauda equina]

It would also have been useful (and they may have done this, we don't know) to get the horse popping down a dry step until that was easy and boring before doing the step into water

But I think we all agree that it's not likely to be a quick fix, I'll-pay-someone-famous-to-sort-out-my-problem thing, just lots of little by little and repetition and encouragement

 

[NinjaPony]

In that kind of situation, I'd have asked for a lead from a more confident horse. If that didn't work with lots of voice and leg encouragement, I'd take it to the smaller water, make a big fuss of it when it did go in and then call it a day. Clinics can throw up issues like this, job of the trainer is to make suggestions, offer some tools and advice to take away. Not whack the horse until it complies. Disappointing more than anything to see a top trainer resorting to such crude methods. Sometimes things go wrong, horses have a habit of showing us up and the measure of a good rider/trainer is how you respond. There is always another day, and no excuse to resorting to violence. As someone who has been in many high pressure situations where it's all gone wrong, I would have expected MT to know better.

 

[Cortez]

Possibly because they were more scared of you than going in to the box. Not how I want a horse to be. I would rather they do something because they trust me not because they are scared of me.

None of my horses are scared of me. I specialise in difficult, sensitive, frightened horses, often rescues. Sometimes a judicious whack is just the ticket, usually it's not, but life is not all bluebirds, bunnies and sugar lumps.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Possibly because they were more scared of you than going in to the box. Not how I want a horse to be. I would rather they do something because they trust me not because they are scared of me.

Well one could argue that Cortez's method HAS taught the horse to trust her and any other person loading the horse in the future. It can trust that if it is titting about being a plonker, then it will get a swift slap on the bum. I really can't see any issue with that at all. All riders and handlers take far more forceful actions riding and handling their horses than that scenario!

Please note Cortez has clearly differentiated between a horse just being a total tit and a horse that is genuinely frightened and worried and requires a more patient and reassuring approach to anything you are asking it to do.

There is no one preferred method of any training IMO, the horse in front of you on the day dictates how you will respond and react to continue its training and compliance with the least fuss and drama for all concerned including the horse.

I didn't comment on the other post about MT - but just to add IMO that pony was not scared or frightened of going into the water, it had already proved that earlier in the training session. It was being stubborn and pig headed and was not being encouraged forward or quickly enough by its rider. Had it gone home that day on that note the rider would have had exactly the same problem re emerge that she was experiencing before the training day. Personally I would have told her to give it a God Almighty riding school kick millii-seconds before it reached the edge of the very small step into the water. Just to clarify I do NOT condone riding everyday constantly using riding school kicks, but they do have their place from time to time. But then riding school kicks are also cruel I suspect?

 

[Mule]

TLW is Dun Roamins new account. Wouldn't pay any heed to anything they post. If the history of the last 25 or so accounts has taught us anything it's that they set out to antagonise and create drama.

Edited...schoolboy error of replying before reading all replies. If I had I'd have seen everyone else point out its DRs again. Sorry ??‍

What's the point of all the different accounts? I don't get why people bother

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Why, if the horse is fine going in and out of the water at other points, would we assume it’s ‘at it’ at the point it’s refusing? Maybe the footing there wasn’t so great, maybe it was going from shade into light, maybe the rider was giving mixed signals etc etc
Better, I think to show the horse that it was ok, that it could be done by taking a lead from another horse imho.

 

[sakura]

I disagree that horses mess around on purpose. There’s behaviour we understand from them, and behaviour we don’t. We have no real idea what goes through a horses head when it refuses to do something it’s done a thousand times before and doesn’t appear outwardly scared of doing. But I highly doubt trying to annoy humans is ever the reason.

 

[Shilasdair]

I disagree that horses mess around on purpose. There’s behaviour we understand from them, and behaviour we don’t. We have no real idea what goes through a horses head when it refuses to do something it’s done a thousand times before and doesn’t appear outwardly scared of doing. But I highly doubt trying to annoy humans is ever the reason.

Some of them can be quite clever and calculating though.
My evil genius mare was a nightmare on box rest because shavings bags kept 'blowing' into her stable and wrapping round her legs, things used to fall off the ledge in her stable and terrify her, and her water bucket used to accidentally tip over leaving the poor thing dehydrated.

Except - she was pulling bags through the bars from the store next door- and then pointedly standing on them, knocking things off ledges deliberately, and tipping her bucket deliberately - she had worked out that my fellow liveries (or as she called them 'suckers') would rush in, pay her attention, comfort her, and even give her treats to calm her down. Every time she did this, she would whinny for attention if the humans didn't spot her work.