Mark Todd - what would you have done?

[sakura]

Some of them can be quite clever and calculating though.
My evil genius mare was a nightmare on box rest because shavings bags kept 'blowing' into her stable and wrapping round her legs, things used to fall off the ledge in her stable and terrify her, and her water bucket used to accidentally tip over leaving the poor thing dehydrated.

Except - she was pulling bags through the bars from the store next door- and then pointedly standing on them, knocking things off ledges deliberately, and tipping her bucket deliberately - she had worked out that my fellow liveries (or as she called them 'suckers') would rush in, pay her attention, comfort her, and even give her treats to calm her down. Every time she did this, she would whinny for attention if the humans didn't spot her work.

Love your mare ? but isn’t that the point? She was on box rest and learnt that those behaviours would result in positive feedback - treats, attention etc

She wasn’t knocking over a water bucket to spite the people who’d then have to clean it up, she knew she would get a positive result so she repeated the behaviour.

They absolutely can be clever, I just disagree that their thought process is ever plotting to annoy humans - especially if the result of that is negative reinforcement (which it was in the MT example)

 

[Shilasdair]

Love your mare ? but isn’t that the point? She was on box rest and learnt that those behaviours would result in positive feedback - treats, attention etc

She wasn’t knocking over a water bucket to spite the people who’d then have to clean it up, she knew she would get a positive result so she repeated the behaviour.

They absolutely can be clever, I just disagree that their thought process is ever plotting to annoy humans - especially if the result of that is negative reinforcement (which it was in the MT example)

You can have her!
I think at the end of the day, you have to negotiate with your horse about what you both enjoy doing. It's much easier to ride a horse that likes his or her job. If I owned the horse that MT hit with a branch, I'd probably decide not to bother trying to event it, and try to find out what it liked doing instead. Then either do that, or find a home where it could be happy.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

maybe the rider was giving mixed signals etc etc

Hence my comment that I would have got the rider giving a good firm riding school kick, this rider was not riding forward enough in a convincing manner. That message that the rider isn't sure either, would have given the horse very direct but mixed signals but a very clear permission to refuse.

Far better one or two short and hefty kick ons to convince the horse that your intention is to go forward into the water without question would have avoided all the drama of the stick waving etc. Or should I have said applied 'more leg', would that sound better and more acceptable to some?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I was togging at an endurance event on a Scottish beach a few years back. The route came in over some sand dunes at the far end. Someone tried riding along the sand dunes before turning her horse towards the beach-not seeing the sheer 30ft drop ahead of her.I shouted warning but was a bit far away-her horse was having none of it despite her nagging and then pony club kicking and shouting. They were arguing for a while about it and the horse was fairly polite I thought (Arab). I eventually managed to run far enough to let her know to turn around. When she came along the beach and saw the drop she was quite shaken!her eyeline was above that of the horses and they were about 10-15ft back from the cliff, so I found it quite interesting after the event.

Hence my comment that I would have got the rider giving a good firm riding school kick, this rider was not riding forward enough in a convincing manner. That message that the rider isn't sure either, would have given the horse very direct but mixed signals but a very clear permission to refuse.

Far better one or two short and hefty kick ons to convince the horse that your intention is to go forward into the water without question would have avoided all the drama of the stick waving etc. Or should I have said applied 'more leg', would that sound better and more acceptable to some?

given the horse ‘more leg’ while blocking it somewhere else may/may not have worked. Any instructor should be able to work out what was going on and sort it out without resorting to the sort of tactics he resorted to.
There was no need for drama, the horse just needed a lead.
Is it the worst thing I’ve ever seen? Of course not but as I said on the original thread, it’s disappointing to me that that was his way of dealing with it and a great horseman made himself look ridiculous frankly.

The horse has no need to jump into that water at all-the rider wants him to, the onus is on the rider to do it right.

 

[misst]

Shils has a good point. Maybe this horse doesn't really want to event. We had one like that. He was bred to event, cost a bit even as a 4yo and looked amazing - a very experienced person commented on him a few years down the line "bet that's a super eventer". No!

He was a super dressage horse, an average and unenthusiastic showjumper and looked on xc as the ruination of a good hack. We had to decide whether to sell him or to do what he was good at. He was my daughter first and only dressage horse . He could be "encouraged" round xc but he did not enjoy it and so nor did my daughter. I wonder if the MT clinic horse was of a similar mindset.

This does not excuse what happened but answers the "what would you do" - not as MT but as the owner. Given it was a xc clinic and there was a xc problem to solve maybe he just "solved" it in the quickest way on the day. Not nice and not a good excuse though.

 

[LEC]

I would have told the rider they were shit, told them to get off the horse and go home as wasting everyone’s time in a group lesson when clearly missing basic fundamentals….

I am so done with this topic now. Of course there are better ways, but better ways are not suitable for group lessons which is a whole other issue… riders choosing group lessons when they should cough up for privates.

I actually blacklist people from group lessons who shouldn’t be in them. They don’t know they have been but they tend not to get given a space. This will probably enrage lots of you, but I am anal about groups and group lessons having had so many dire ones over the years.

anyway I am trying to persuade an outstanding horse trainer friend that there is a niche so watch this space for teaching people another way to xc school.

 

[HBB]

I would have told the rider they were shit, told them to get off the horse and go home as wasting everyone’s time in a group lesson when clearly missing basic fundamentals….

I am so done with this topic now. Of course there are better ways, but better ways are not suitable for group lessons which is a whole other issue… riders choosing group lessons when they should cough up for privates.

I actually blacklist people from group lessons who shouldn’t be in them. They don’t know they have been but they tend not to get given a space. This will probably enrage lots of you, but I am anal about groups and group lessons having had so many dire ones over the years.

anyway I am trying to persuade an outstanding horse trainer friend that there is a niche so watch this space for teaching people another way to xc school.

Well said ??????

 

[Sandstone1]

Well one could argue that Cortez's method HAS taught the horse to trust her and any other person loading the horse in the future. It can trust that if it is titting about being a plonker, then it will get a swift slap on the bum. I really can't see any issue with that at all. All riders and handlers take far more forceful actions riding and handling their horses than that scenario!

Please note Cortez has clearly differentiated between a horse just being a total tit and a horse that is genuinely frightened and worried and requires a more patient and reassuring approach to anything you are asking it to do.

There is no one preferred method of any training IMO, the horse in front of you on the day dictates how you will respond and react to continue its training and compliance with the least fuss and drama for all concerned including the horse.

I didn't comment on the other post about MT - but just to add IMO that pony was not scared or frightened of going into the water, it had already proved that earlier in the training session. It was being stubborn and pig headed and was not being encouraged forward or quickly enough by its rider. Had it gone home that day on that note the rider would have had exactly the same problem re emerge that she was experiencing before the training day. Personally I would have told her to give it a God Almighty riding school kick millii-seconds before it reached the edge of the very small step into the water. Just to clarify I do NOT condone riding everyday constantly using riding school kicks, but they do have their place from time to time. But then riding school kicks are also cruel I suspect?

I do not see how hitting any animal teaches it to trust you.

 

[twiggy2]

There are so many variables, ultimately though I like my horses to work with me and have trust.
With my last mare we used to go and do this stuff on a long line before under saddle.

 

[Cortez]

I do not see how hitting any animal teaches it to trust you.

Well of course you don't, because you have persuaded yourself that your idealised way is the only possible one. But I am here to tell you that it is indeed possible to produce happy, well adjusted, well trained horses that have perhaps, at one stage of their lives been not only the direct opposite of that, but also in receipt of a well-timed whack. Spoiled, brattish horses are very seldom happy, and are often downright dangerous.

 

[Sandstone1]

Well of course you don't, because you have persuaded yourself that your idealised way is the only possible one. But I am here to tell you that it is indeed possible to produce happy, well adjusted, well trained horses that have perhaps, at one stage of their lives been not only the direct opposite of that, but also in receipt of a well-timed whack. Spoiled, brattish horses are very seldom happy, and are often downright dangerous.

But that could apply to you. You have persuaded yourself its ok to hit horses. Its not.

 

[Rowreach]

AFAIK the issue with dropping down a step into water was a longstanding thing with this horse, so what I would have done, if I'd thought it wise to go to an xc clinic at all, is tell MT that we had this problem and I didn't want to address it at all today thank you.

But probably I'd have sorted it at home or with one to one training before the horse went near another competition or clinic.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Judicious is the key word there for me. I'm certainly not anti whips etc but I don't feel there was anything judicious about what MT did with the tree branch. It was completely over the top and really poor practice from a high profile professional. Some great suggestions for alternatives on this thread (not that they should be "alternative")

 

[Upthecreek]

A clinic with others is not the right time and place to completely resolve the issue. They should have been satisfied with the horse jumping off the lower drop and left it at that. I’ve had a couple of horses that were not always equally confident at every type of jump and it takes time in training to build confidence and can slow down progress in terms of the level you compete at.

My daughter had a mare that was very happily jumping solid fences in all shapes, ditches, in/out of water at novice height but she really did not like brush fences and would often stop if they were bigger than 90cm. So we accepted where we were and worked on the problem in training until she was consistently and reliably confident jumping higher brush fences. Team chasing really helped her forget they were scary and she never worried about them after that.

 

[NinjaPony]

Once again, there seems to be this deliberately Manachean attitude where opposing MT’s behaviour means you can never give a horse a smack if it behaves badly.

We should all know the difference between a well time smack for bad behaviour, use of a whip to encourage a horse forward and a beating of a horse. The third is never justified. Of course most of us have had to give a horse a smack- I gave mine a small slap to the neck today because he tried to grab my coat when I was picking his feet up- I’ve had him 15 years and he knows it’s rude! Equally I train with a schooling whip and expect horses I ride to respond to a light touch. I have also used a whip when needed eg on a road etc. Like pretty much everyone here. But that is worlds away from beating a horse with a branch 10 times, and leaning back so your whole weight is behind it and conflating the two does training a disservice.

 

[MagicMelon]

I also disagree horses mess about on purpose. I genuinely think they always have a reason even if we think its a stupid reason or obviously just dont understand what it is since they cant talk. I think MT did it right to begin with, going in and out the smaller bit etc. it was purely when he brought out the stick it went wrong IMO. The horse probably would have gone in if the girl was simply positive which would give the horse confidence, it was teetering right on the edge. The rider was likely expecting the stop so signalled that to the horse. My current horse only met water for the first time last year, at a XC training session. I dont carry a whip so no whipping was involved, it took a lot of squeezing from me (I dont wear spurs either) which is surely kinder than smacking / booting with spurs and encouragement with my voice and trying to follow other horses in etc. and eventually she did go in and continued to do so thereafter with me giving masses of praise / giving her treats by hand which I always keep in my pocket so she realised it was great being in there. I went home realising I needed to instill that confidence in her going forward so I took her in hand down the road to a huge puddle we always have up a farm track, every day for a week and even nown and again now I take her down and stand about in it while she gets a treat by hand. Surely now she is linking water with a nice affair? Nothing to fear? Whereas hitting the horse into the water and then no particular praise in the water either is just making the horse even more wary and creating a big issue?

Ultimately, the lack of time shouldnt have been an issue. He simply should have been happy with getting her going in and out sweetly as it was doing prior, why push it if its a known issue in a time-limited situation? The rider should have taken the time to go regularly when time doesnt matter and just play.

 

[Cortez]

But that could apply to you. You have persuaded yourself its ok to hit horses. Its not.

I have "persuaded" a lot more than myself, I have trained hundreds of horses, very occasionally that will have included administering a slap. The outcome of good training is good outcomes. People pay me to train horses because I train horses well. I really wish you every success in your methods, are they working for you?

 

[Sandstone1]

I have "persuaded" a lot more than myself, I have trained hundreds of horses, very occasionally that will have included administering a slap. The outcome of good training is good outcomes. People pay me to train horses because I train horses well. I really wish you every success in your methods, are they working for you?

Yes they are. Very much so. Thanks. Besides which, what Mark Todd did was not " A slap" Ten blows with all his weight behind could hardly be classed as a slap. The horse went in the water so I guess you would class that as a good outcome. That I do not class as training horses well.

 

[maya2008]

When I had a horse who was scared of steps, I found a tiny one, got a lead (no good), got off and did it with her in walk (that worked - she was unsure but willing to try when I just stood there and waited for her to feel brave enough!) then did it again with the lead and left it. We then built some steps at home and gradually progressed up to bigger ones in the same sort of way, just at home I had a lunge line so me doing it first was a bit easier!

 

[maya2008]

In general, I prefer a tap with a whip to endless hard kicking as I have hit myself by accident with the whip many a time - a sharp sting and no lasting damage. If someone had kicked me with boots on, there would definitely have been bruising! I don’t tend to do either to train a fearful horse though as in the end a lead from me is usually a quicker and easier way to solve the problem.

 

[Lois Lame]

I disagree that horses mess around on purpose. There’s behaviour we understand from them, and behaviour we don’t. We have no real idea what goes through a horses head when it refuses to do something it’s done a thousand times before and doesn’t appear outwardly scared of doing. But I highly doubt trying to annoy humans is ever the reason.

Something weird going on with my computre this morning.

 

[Spotherisk]

It’s easy in hindsight! Maybe he should have asked the rider why her horse was refusing? What if she’d said ‘oh this is an old problem I can’t sort, or I’ve had to borrow a saddle because of whatever and this one’s a bit too big, tight, straight cut, or the horse hasn’t been xl since it’s kissing spines op etc etc etc? Maybe if she’d said in advance that she was coming to the clinic to solve this one problem, and then maybe he could have said ‘too difficult in a group lesson, book an individual’. Maybe he should have turfed her off and ridden the horse himself? Maybe alarm bells should have rung that these days everyone has their phone out videoing and you need to be whiter than white all the time?

It would be interesting to know if riders need to submit some info on themselves and the horse before attending ie do they need to answer ‘what do you want to gain from this 45 minute shared clinic with an instructor who hasn’t met any of you before today’.

 

[Lois Lame]

I disagree that horses mess around on purpose. There’s behaviour we understand from them, and behaviour we don’t. We have no real idea what goes through a horses head when it refuses to do something it’s done a thousand times before and doesn’t appear outwardly scared of doing. But I highly doubt trying to annoy humans is ever the reason.

I agree with the bolded statement. There would be no point unless some horses were like some bullies.

Horses sometimes just don't want to do something. Just like us humans. So they say 'no' and even, sometimes, 'up yours' (which I think is pretty rude).

 

[Lois Lame]

... she was pulling bags through the bars from the store next door- and then pointedly standing on them, knocking things off ledges deliberately, and tipping her bucket deliberately...

I'd do it too. I feel terribly sorry for horses on box rest - but that's off topic, opening a can of worms, and talking about something that I've never had to deal with because I've not been in that situation of having a horse whose injury was so bad as to require box rest.

 

[babymare]

Myself? I find it sad, bloody so damn sad, that yet again the horse world is in spot light for the wrong reason. Maybe some can justify his actions( though I can not) but to the un horsey people all they see is bad! People keep saying it was 2 years ago but that’s not so long ago to excuse his actions. We are all aware of social media and how it can bite you so you have to wonder what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe I was trained old fashioned but a good steady lead down and through water may have helped. Sometimes it’s better to lead than show aggression. I certainly would not trust that horse at that type of jump again! My trust and confidence in horse would be gone as equally that of horse and rider. But hey only my opinion ?

 

[Lois Lame]

I haven't read the whole threads on this business. In one way, I don't see how we can have an opinion on what should have been done or what could have been done because we don't know everything there is to know about that day.

What I find odd is that apparently the video was put up by the rider. I feel that maybe the rider should not have been at that clinic. Maybe she was out of her comfort zone and I can understand that. But, if she's a little too chicken to do what's wanted, why would her horse want to do it?

So what is the clinician to do in this instance? Say, "Look, you are not really suited to this?"

 

[Lois Lame]

People keep saying it was 2 years ago but that’s not so long ago to excuse his actions.

But it makes it confusing that this happened two years ago. And then to find out that it was put up by the rider herself. I don't think anyone is using it as an excuse.

 

[Mule]

He was a super dressage horse, an average and unenthusiastic showjumper and looked on xc as the ruination of a good hack.

?

 

[maggiestar]

I have "persuaded" a lot more than myself, I have trained hundreds of horses, very occasionally that will have included administering a slap. The outcome of good training is good outcomes. People pay me to train horses because I train horses well. I really wish you every success in your methods, are they working for you?

It's perfectly possible to train horses without being all slappy hands. You seem very hard.

 

[stangs]

Please note Cortez has clearly differentiated between a horse just being a total tit and a horse that is genuinely frightened and worried and requires a more patient and reassuring approach to anything you are asking it to do.

The question then becomes, at what point do you decree a horse as being a ‘tit’ and the behaviour they’re performing as having a ‘genuine’ reason?

(Genuine question as I don’t tend to see much variation in the two types of horses’ body language)