Marmite horse or mean judge?

DressageCob

DressageCob

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Hello!

This is more of a rant than anything, so please bear with me!

I do dressage with my little coloured cob. Generally we do very well. He might not have the biggest movement in the world, but it's very good for his build and he always does an accurate and obedient test. We primarily compete at Prelim and Novice, although we've just started doing some unaffiliated elementary.

This weekend we were at a dressage competition, BD, doing two novice tests. The first one he was behind my leg at the start, but we got it together and he did a nice test (for the most part). We got 67%. The second test (different judge) was loads better, he was forwards, showed real difference in the mediums and he was bendy and supple (more so than he usually is). A couple of people who were watching said how nice it was (people I don't know) and my friend said it was far nicer than the one before. Unfortunately we only got 61%. We were beaten by two horses who had bucked during the medium canter, and one who was on the wrong lead in the canter. We were also beaten by my friend, but she did a lovely test (aside from a disobedience in the the medium canter), so that was no great surprise! I certainly didn't expect to win. But quite a few people who watched my test came up and said that the judge clearly didn't like my horse.

I don't want to sound like a brat, and I'm aware that I may do, but it is just so disheartening when a judge doesn't like your horse. This isn't just an assumption based on a poor score, I should say. This judge and I have history. At area festivals last year we got sheets of 70% and 68% from two judges, and 55% from this judge. It was a similar story at regionals. She has never scored us over 62%. She has also made her dislike of my horse abundantly clear, referring to him in one sheet as "boring", and saying in another "obedient horse but unimpressive".

Has anyone else had a similar experience? I'm not too bothered as generally we do alright, and I'm very pleased with my little horse. He tries hard and he's come on loads. It's just so frustrating that no matter what I do this judge isn't going to be impressed. I'm actually now thinking that I will do my area festivals and regionals this year further afield, since she is almost invariably one of the judges at those. I also find it a bit offensive, and I know that's silly because everyone has their personal taste, but I love my little cob and I think the rest of the world should too :D I'm just wondering if there is still a barrier for non-dressagey breeds of horse in this field. Like a glass ceiling. I wouldn't say this is the only judge who appears not to like the little chap, but she's the most obvious. The others I have put down more to them not seeing what I felt, or the test feeling far better than it looked. It is odd though; on other occasions we've got 70% in one prelim with one judge and 62% with another judge on the same day. Some judges score us 7 or 8 for his paces and others score maybe a 5 or 6. This judge gave him a 4 at area festival, a 5 this time.

Sorry for the rant and the ramblings. I'm not as bitter as I come across, I promise! I know you can't please all the people all the time :)
 
I'm afraid some of them just are marmite - especially the native/cob types. I evented a 13.2hh Welsh sec C and one week she's get 42 (58%) and doing the same test the next week she'd get 24.6 (75.4%) even when the tests felt roughly similar! I think some judges really value the rhythm straightness and obedience of these types of horses, where some prefer big flashy paces and a bit more presence. I also did U21s dressage on her and had the same thing - on the same day I'd do 2 mediocre tests for 68% in one and 59% in the other!

I also evented a Welsh cross 15.3hh, and it was the same. At the pony club eventing champs I was marked by 2 judges, one who gave her 31 (69%) and one who gave her 41 (59%) - ultimately it is really subjective if your horse isn't the traditional type, and you have to just suck it up. I guess always make the most of it when it's in your favour (ie a boring test that gets 67+%) and be realistic when it doesn't.
 
Get someone to video your tests!!! Honestly it makes such a difference and stops you second guessing yourself if you feel you got an undeserved score.

Mine can be a little marmite, he is a tb and only 15.1hh. We have been described as both 'shuffling' and 'elegant' on the same day by different judges, so a lot is down to personal preference unfortunately, no matter the stamp of horse.

Those comments 'boring' and 'unimpressive' aren't really appropriate, and considering its BD I might mention them to the venue.
 
I would expect more professionalism from a BD judge!

I have a Section D x so he is 'cobby' - I have found that some judges love him, some hate him. I have ranged from 70% tests to 58% tests (both of which were ridden within about 2 weeks of each other, and I think both were pretty good tests!

However I don't compete BD, so I had put it down to unaffiliated judges choice of horse.

The judge that gave me the lower score is renowned for liking the flashier warmblood types. *Sigh*

I don't think you come across as bitter at all, I would be mightily pee'd off if I had comments like 'boring' from a judge!
 
Judges preferring warmbloods happens all the time at our comps. I am sure your cob can knock spots off the warmbloods but some judges will never look beyond the breed/colour! Shame isn't it? Glad to say as you have found out it's a minority that decide before you perform! Try doing some writing for judges if you have time, really interesting to hear from the horses mouth so to speak!
 
Don't give up! It's really dis-heartening to hear a judge say they don't like your horse and some are more brutal than others. I've only recently got into doing dressage with a welsh pony who's short and round but we've done ok so far! I'm waiting for the day a judge just doesn't like him though. I was surprised to hear that dressage is quite similar to showing, so if your horse isn't the judges cup of tea then that's that. I got fed-up of doing showing because you could do a foot perfect show but still be placed lower than an animal that tried to deck it's rider?!

Can you find out who the judges are prior to entering? You could avoid her then and not bother wasting your time and money if you know she doesn't like him. I do think some dressage judges are stumped when a little hairy enters the ring, but I think it's really lovely to see diversity at dressage comps, makes the viewing much more interesting. It seems the higher you go, the less cob types you see, but that could just be my little experience of dressage!
 
I would agree with everyone else and say that it's the 'marmite effect' (or is it affect? Always get those two mixed up...).

Genie regularly splits the judges - at winter regionals this year one judge had her in 1st, one in about 3rd, and then the other right near the bottom, as a result we came 8th (still a great result that I was very proud of mind!). Team Quest finals the difference between our highest and lowest marking judge in one test was 81% and 65% (I think the 81% judge was being generous, but still!). Summer regionals last year one judge had her 2nd, one judge had her 2nd last. It's highly frustrating but sadly you just have to shrug it off and keep chugging on. I will admit that there are some venues I avoid because I know that they almost always use a judge who hates Genie.

Regarding this judge's previous comments, I would be contacting both BD and the venue... that's really not appropriate comments!
 
helenalbert said:
This judge and I have history. At area festivals last year we got sheets of 70% and 68% from two judges, and 55% from this judge. It was a similar story at regionals. She has never scored us over 62%. She has also made her dislike of my horse abundantly clear, referring to him in one sheet as "boring", and saying in another "obedient horse but unimpressive".
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I used to do eventing and didn't actually look at the judges comments, unless i knew it was a very good judge, as i know myself what went wrong/needs to be better etc. So long as they scored fairly in relation to the other tests i think the actual mark isn't very relevant.
However, it sounds like this is not happening in your case with this judge and I would find it totally unacceptable to find 'boring' written on a test.
If this judge is a listed BD judge then I would report them to BD - send a copy of the tests with inappropriate comments and ideally send a video of a good test that she has given a poor overall score too. At the area festival where you got 70-68-55 from the three judges - were these for the same test? (i.e. three judges around the arena) - if so, then this is too much of a discrepancy with the third judge. There will always be a bit of subconscious bias for or against different horses (I was writing for a judge once who commented how one horse looked just like a horse she owned, and i am sure the marks wavered toward the slightly higher side!), but my landlady is a BD dressage judge and thinks that more people should report cases of problem judging.
You may not be able to change this judge, but just remember that your horse doesn't care what the judge thinks - just that you are happy with him!
 
It's not just cobby types - my WB seems to do the same!! It was quite disheartening having my scores soar to personal bests and then drop to personal worsts by the week despite me not riding a completely different test. I've had my badly scoring tests video'd and I think I've found the secret... Different judges like different things! ;)

In all seriousness I've been lucky to have my good and bad tests video'd and I actually logged a complaint with BD about one of my tests - the comments on my sheet were not related to my test - and the feedback from BD was that it was poorly judged (they got 2 other judges to watch and they marked it 12 & 15% higher than my original score) and that they would speak to the judge in question. However there are also a couple of things I've noticed that will make you drop marks and some judges will mark it harsher than others - my issue is rhythm and in a test it can change (particularly the canter) and in some tests I can't seem to ride a circle. These are basic things but some judges are more lenient to these mistakes than others (and some seem to hold a grudge across the whole test rather than just marking down certain movements).

I was also speaking to a friend who is a judge and she gets frustrated by people judging prelim horses on elementary (or higher)standards - hence the low marks and certain comments. But it's people and unless we use a computer judge it will never change.

I am going to spend some time writing for judges to help get my head around what I need to do as well as spending more time riding tests :)
 
I have to say, I never take the discrepancy in scores as the judge disliking my horse, but rather they are looking for something different/more. She is a Fresian x Hackney so not very dressag'y and we always get a good split of comments from the judges. However even when I feel we've gotten lower than expected, when I go back through the test sheet generally there is very little I disagree with on a basic level, more the same comments can get different marks with different judges.
Our medium trots are a bone of contention for most judges we've ridden under, she can lengthen but will always have a rounder action than most. On average we score between 5-8's mainly dependant on how much tension she's holding and so how much knee's up firing forward we have... However we generally always have active and uphill in our favour ;).

I look at the harsh'er judging as a way of thinking, right this judge isn't going to just give us marks so what can we do to make them like it more? She can bounce about and collect all day long, but until we get the suppleness over the back we are not going to improve, this will not change her action so we are not ever going to get those flashy extentions but it will bring our marks up across the board. If I just took onboard the comments from the 'nice' judges it wouldn't push me as hard to improve, as an 8's pretty darn good so not much to improve right?

Keep postive but keep working at improving too, though with those comments I can't blame you for a spot of judge avoidance!

x x
 
The boring comment is completely unacceptable, put a complaint in.

However I will say from a judges point of view can I put my own *sigh* in here....
What feels good to you and looks good to friends, trainers etc is not always what the judge is looking for, look ot your rule book and the scale of training.

For example, my friend had a day just like yours, 'my second test was much better, this judge didn't like me' , well I watched both tests and the second one that felt forward and great was hollow, on the forehand and rushed out of it's rhythm, the first one that got a better mark felt more hard work but was in a tick tock rhythm. She warmed up between the 2 trying to stop him being hard work and what result int hte second test was less hard work for her but look horrid.

I am not saying this is the case, you have had some good advice, but again a word of warning on videos, if it isn't from C it isn't what the judge is seeing (you only need ot look at differing scores at internationals between judges at different points in the arena!)

Don't be disheartened :)
 
pistolpete said:
Judges preferring warmbloods happens all the time at our comps. I am sure your cob can knock spots off the warmbloods but some judges will never look beyond the breed/colour! Shame isn't it? Glad to say as you have found out it's a minority that decide before you perform! Try doing some writing for judges if you have time, really interesting to hear from the horses mouth so to speak!
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I have a typical dressage warm blood and have the same thing happen all the time with different judges giving me massively different scores. I have also done bd on a native and noticed it less!
 
Batgirl, I completely agree. Sometimes what feels better is less correct. I readily accept that. On this occasion, however, my horse was behind my leg and behind the vertical in the first test and forwards and correct in the second. It wasn't our best ever test, and we are still perfecting the medium gaits, but it definitely was not the worst in the class. And yet, we scored the second lowest score. A beautiful big flashy horse that bucked frequently, spooked at the judge's car, cantered on the wrong leg and reared up in the final halt beat us. It also was not in an outline at all, but was beautiful, big and flashy. It just doesn't seem right to me that a correct, accurate but non-flashy test can be scored 5% lower than one with so many issues, at least at this level. I don't begrudge that combination doing well; I'm just struggling to see how it can be so much better, other than judge's preference on horse.

Unfortunately I only have a minute of video of it, but it is a far nicer picture than the first test. I think the judge was, if anything, a bit generous to us on the first one! It's not so much the difference between those two marks that I'm questioning, but rather the fact that the second one was soooooo low, and lower than far less accurate tests.

I didn't complain about the boring comment at the time. It just seemed a bit petty. If I get another one I will though, because I've had enough. The area festival thing was 3 judges, all watching the same test, from M, C and H. It was a surprising disparity :D

What I'm currently looking out for is this judge running a clinic somewhere, so I can have my lesson and see just what it is we are failing to do. I'm hoping it is something other than genetics, because then at least I'd stand a chance of improving. If not, I'll just press on :D

Thanks for all the replies. Good to know I'm not the only one (although that's also not good, if you see what I mean :D )
 
You can also talk to the judge after the test and ask questions. Most don't mind telling you what they are looking for and they might explain why they made an unusual comment.
 
Eugh this is a sad aspect of Dressage... I think some people just have a very specific image of what Dressage should look like and if your horse doesn't move like they imagine, doesn't look like they imagine and doesn't hold itself quite how they imagine, you lose out. On the other hand some people do make allowances for breed/type and judge based on correctness... I think it's much better here/Europe than in the USA at least and I think more and more breeds are being recognised for their abilities. So I wouldn't lose hope. This particular judge may never change but at least the greater judging landscape slowly is...
 
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I think it's the downside of competing in a subjective discipline! The upside is some judges will love your horse!
I generally find that most judges mark fairly and often marks will reflect what I have felt however there's always that day when a judge sees something particularly special in what I have felt was a less than average test or they have been less than impressed by what I thought was a great test!
Some judges also do mark harder than others so sometimes it's good to compare your scores with others in the class.
I wouldn't whinge too much though as regardless of breed it happens to everyone (I have a TB and the same can happen). Some horses (and riders) just present a more pleasing picture according to a judges preference.
Just be thankful you don't do showing!!
 
I'm another who competes a warmblood and find that some judges consistently mark him highly and others don't. Think it is more that judges have specific 'buttons' as to what they like to see in a test. Back when I was starting out at prelim I rode what I felt was a lovely test only to score 54% (we had been regularly scoring high 60s). When I looked back at the video though I could see that I rode the whole test with the handbrake on so the score was well deserved.
 
To me, 'boring' translates as 'lacking expression' which is possibly what the judge is referring to, & that is definitely something that can be worked on :)
 
el_Snowflakes said:
To me, 'boring' translates as 'lacking expression' which is possibly what the judge is referring to, & that is definitely something that can be worked on :)
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Indeed it can. But "boring horse" isn't the way to say it. Lacking expression, yes. Even boring test if you must use that word. But to call the horse himself boring isn't very nice. Particularly when that was the only comment at the end of the test. I don't think it is right that after £19 in entry fees, travelling to the venue, all the training that goes into it beforehand that a judge can legitimately only offer the comment "boring horse" in the comment box of the test. Nothing in any other box either.

I'm aware dressage is subjective, which is one of the reasons I haven't actually complained (officially at least). I'm just being honest; it's incredibly disheartening. I don't do showing for this precise reason- it's too subjective. But I was led to believe that at the lower levels of dressage, they are looking more at the accuracy and correctness of the movements than at how much money you have spent purchasing your horse or what its bloodlines are like.

In any event, I'm not giving up. I just thought I'd share an experience with you all, since we tend to share both the good and the bad. I haven't made official complaints and didn't "whinge" at anybody either. I would hate to think that I give off the impression of a moaner or someone who can't take criticism. I can. I just don't think it is fair to comment one insulting phrase and nothing else, or to be so open about one's dislike of a type of horse when you're supposed to be objectively judging a class. I'm just going to do some judge avoidance for regionals and AF to give myself a fighting chance :D
 
helenalbert said:
Indeed it can. But "boring horse" isn't the way to say it. Lacking expression, yes. Even boring test if you must use that word. But to call the horse himself boring isn't very nice. Particularly when that was the only comment at the end of the test. I don't think it is right that after £19 in entry fees, travelling to the venue, all the training that goes into it beforehand that a judge can legitimately only offer the comment "boring horse" in the comment box of the test. Nothing in any other box either.
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If this was their only comment, you should definitely send a copy of this sheet to BD. That is not acceptable behaviour from a judge. I'm one who has always thought judges are swings and roundabouts - some like you, some don't, and adjust expectations accordingly. But a competent, fair judge should give a genuine comment - for example, 'needs more expression/impulsion/whatever'. Not a flipping essay, but something relevant to the horse's training.
 
helenalbert said:
Indeed it can. But "boring horse" isn't the way to say it. Lacking expression, yes. Even boring test if you must use that word. But to call the horse himself boring isn't very nice. Particularly when that was the only comment at the end of the test. I don't think it is right that after £19 in entry fees, travelling to the venue, all the training that goes into it beforehand that a judge can legitimately only offer the comment "boring horse" in the comment box of the test. Nothing in any other box either.

I'm aware dressage is subjective, which is one of the reasons I haven't actually complained (officially at least). I'm just being honest; it's incredibly disheartening. I don't do showing for this precise reason- it's too subjective. But I was led to believe that at the lower levels of dressage, they are looking more at the accuracy and correctness of the movements than at how much money you have spent purchasing your horse or what its bloodlines are like.

In any event, I'm not giving up. I just thought I'd share an experience with you all, since we tend to share both the good and the bad. I haven't made official complaints and didn't "whinge" at anybody either. I would hate to think that I give off the impression of a moaner or someone who can't take criticism. I can. I just don't think it is fair to comment one insulting phrase and nothing else, or to be so open about one's dislike of a type of horse when you're supposed to be objectively judging a class. I'm just going to do some judge avoidance for regionals and AF to give myself a fighting chance :D
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In your original post your said the judge wrote "boring" which suggests she found the test boring to watch, not "boring horse", which is both vague & not constructive! If you feel
The judge treated you unfairly, I would send a letter saying so.....& yes, like showing, dressage is subjective :)
 
I'd put a complaint in if you still have the evidence of the 'boring' comment, that is not acceptable and BD train judges to be encouraging and positive, using 'boring' in any context cannot be classed as constructive or helpful so they cant be going around saying things like that.

In terms of 'not liking your horse' - that isnt true, no judge looks at a horse and thinks 'I dont like it'. They may not like the lack of expression, they may not like the way of going etc etc....but its never as personal that its just your horse that's the problem.

There are judges who, unless they are seeing an expressive horse (note not WB because some WB's are not particularly expressive, a WB does not guarantee you success in dressage), will mark your test low even if you are super accurate. And then there are judges who prefer to see accurate, obedient and relaxed over slightly wild with mistakes but flashy paces. This is dressage, it is down to a select number of individual's opinions on your horse, it is never going to be 100% fair and there will be personal preference at times coming into play.

I noticed you havent mentioned any of the comments the judge made on your sheet on this occasion - what were the reasons? They have to put a comment for a mark of 6 or less so you should have plenty of them.

Its easy to take it personally, but a far more effective way of dealing with it is to take the sheet, look at it in detail and then work on it with your trainer. I'd actually stop trying to run away and avoid this judge, instead get yourself in front of this judge so frequently they are eventually going to have to get used to your 'boring' horse and mark it fairly. Find out if this judge does any test riding clinics or offers training (most judges are trainers too), go for lessons even!

Yes this judge is clearly harsh on horses who lack natural expression, but with a lot of horses you can work on expression and it will develop over the years. You are still only at a low level so your horse hasnt had the opportunity to develop the expression that will get the higher marks, and then funnily enough if this judge is at Prelim/Novice chances are they are not listed highly enough to judge Elementary or higher, so as you move up the levels you'll move away from the judge!

Some horses do hit a ceiling, and sometimes there is a limit to what a non-purpose bred horse can do - but then again there are Welshies at Grand Prix. My favourite trainer and all round guru on all things dressage (based on his 66+ years of experience) says any horse can get to medium if they are sound and have the correct training. Beyond medium it gets a heck of a lot harder and you need a pretty special horse - but it can still happen.

Dont forget you are still at a low level so the judges are often low level too, you'll see a bit more variation at Prelim/Novice because you have a mix of younger inexperienced judges or older judges who have never made it up the levels and are a bit 'tired' so to speak of judging the same old stuff.

Dont see the negative in this, use it as a positive - you have even more to work on and more ammunition to throw at your trainer to help you progress. Give yourself time to develop your horse, this is still early days in terms of the dressage levels and the more work you do the more the horse's paces will develop and he will become less 'boring' as he progresses. And give that judge a shock when you show up at their yard for a lesson, just to see the look on their face will be worth it!
 
My favourite trainer and all round guru on all things dressage (based on his 66+ years of experience) says any horse can get to medium if they are sound and have the correct training.

I was told the same thing too.
 
I find that when dressaging my traditional cob, she either does really well or really badly. We did a prelim test once, it was a nice test and obedient, nothing wrong but obviously there were still things to work on. We scored sub 50%. Top scores were all wb types. Hairy beasts didn't fare well!
I did the same test at a different venue under a different judge, same sort of performance and scored 74% and won!
 
I have a Wb and I get anything from 58-68, it doesn't take a lot for that difference.

The key thing I think people ned to realise is there is ONLY 1 MARK different between those scores! A wb with more expression may score higher because that is actually part of what is being marked. You can get 60% - Satisfactory by being accurate, but that is accurate with NO WOBBLES, as soon as you wobble that is dropping you below 60%.

I can get 64% making a lot of big mistakes (as referred to earlier) my test would read, 8 8 8 8 8 3 3 6 7 8, I am still scoring more than 6666666666. THat is not because I have a flashy warmblood but smy good bits are good and bad bits are bad.

Someone above said it was sad becasue people have a picture of what dressage should be and if it doesn't fit then you won' score highly. YES, THAT'S DRESSAGE. If your horse is flat it is flat, you probably won't ever get high scores unless you work on that instead of bemoaning those that have naturally expressive horses.

My naturally expressive horse has many other issues that I need to work on.

Don't watch other peoples tests and think yours was better, work on yours and maybe next time it will be better.

Disclaimer: All the 'yours' are royal yours :) Rant over. Everyone be happy and try to enjoy dressage :)
 
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