Mine - TB Stallion In Badminton Parade
- Thread starter no_no_nanette
- Start date
Blanche
Well-Known Member
I like him and would use him . He appears to have very clean legs and has been proven to be sound over a good few years which a good few warmbloods I know are not . Some of the comments about him have been very strange and perhaps the negativity that seems to invade some peoples whole demeanor should be kept off this board . I have seen many horses that people rave about here that I think are purely awful but if it's not constructive I keep to myself what I think . Also its horses for courses and what suits one mare (and owner) will not be suitable for another.
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I like him and would use him . He appears to have very clean legs and has been proven to be sound over a good few years which a good few warmbloods I know are not . Some of the comments about him have been very strange and perhaps the negativity that seems to invade some peoples whole demeanor should be kept off this board . I have seen many horses that people rave about here that I think are purely awful but if it's not constructive I keep to myself what I think . Also its horses for courses and what suits one mare (and owner) will not be suitable for another.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many thanks, blanche, for brilliantly summing up exactly what for me should be the spirit of the forum .... and which gets us to balanced and informed debate where its really possible to learn from all the people here who are genuinely knowledgeable and experienced horsemen and women. Doesn't mean to say we all have to agree - as you say, its about respecting other people's choices and opinions .....
I like him and would use him . He appears to have very clean legs and has been proven to be sound over a good few years which a good few warmbloods I know are not . Some of the comments about him have been very strange and perhaps the negativity that seems to invade some peoples whole demeanor should be kept off this board . I have seen many horses that people rave about here that I think are purely awful but if it's not constructive I keep to myself what I think . Also its horses for courses and what suits one mare (and owner) will not be suitable for another.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many thanks, blanche, for brilliantly summing up exactly what for me should be the spirit of the forum .... and which gets us to balanced and informed debate where its really possible to learn from all the people here who are genuinely knowledgeable and experienced horsemen and women. Doesn't mean to say we all have to agree - as you say, its about respecting other people's choices and opinions .....
alleycat
Well-Known Member
I've just spent an hour on the Racing Post website trying to find out more about him; plenty of racing videos (20p a view!)and stats on there; well worth viewing.
He comes across as a fast, genuine, reliable horse; not showy, not flashy, but on his day comes striding through from behind to grind the opposition down; moves freely and well, until his last race, where he looks tired, keeps struggling, never quits- but can't keep up and finishes last... I suppose time has caught up with him. I don't suppose many horses can be shown to be this tough and genuine; he seems to have a really good work ethic and a calm, brave, unflappable workmanlike attitude.
You only see a few strides of trot- obviously he's just jogging as he goes into the winner's enclosure, not trotting out like a dressage horse- but looks OK to me.
I have to say I really like him. Its a pity that its really too late to find out whether he can jump. His sire has had winners over jumps, if I'm reading the stats right, but doesn't score that highly; possibly because the offspring have been good at their first job, of sprinting.
The post by Magic in the thread below, seems to earmark tough, resiliant sprinters with high class performers a couple of generations back and durable horses with a higher than average number of outings closer up in the pedigree as being statistically most likely to produce high class eventers. He seems to fit this picture.
If you look at his pedigree, he's actually bred along the same lines as Laurie's Crusador, whom SN mentions ; don't know if this is good or bad; as SN points out, this horse was utilised as a dressage sire.
My gut feeling is that Mine will get the last laugh on his detractors- and that even those who espouse the new, light, athletic, elegant warmblood actually need this sort of tested-in-the-fire TB somewhere in their bloodlines to preserve speed, sanity and soundness.
He comes across as a fast, genuine, reliable horse; not showy, not flashy, but on his day comes striding through from behind to grind the opposition down; moves freely and well, until his last race, where he looks tired, keeps struggling, never quits- but can't keep up and finishes last... I suppose time has caught up with him. I don't suppose many horses can be shown to be this tough and genuine; he seems to have a really good work ethic and a calm, brave, unflappable workmanlike attitude.
You only see a few strides of trot- obviously he's just jogging as he goes into the winner's enclosure, not trotting out like a dressage horse- but looks OK to me.
I have to say I really like him. Its a pity that its really too late to find out whether he can jump. His sire has had winners over jumps, if I'm reading the stats right, but doesn't score that highly; possibly because the offspring have been good at their first job, of sprinting.
The post by Magic in the thread below, seems to earmark tough, resiliant sprinters with high class performers a couple of generations back and durable horses with a higher than average number of outings closer up in the pedigree as being statistically most likely to produce high class eventers. He seems to fit this picture.
If you look at his pedigree, he's actually bred along the same lines as Laurie's Crusador, whom SN mentions ; don't know if this is good or bad; as SN points out, this horse was utilised as a dressage sire.
My gut feeling is that Mine will get the last laugh on his detractors- and that even those who espouse the new, light, athletic, elegant warmblood actually need this sort of tested-in-the-fire TB somewhere in their bloodlines to preserve speed, sanity and soundness.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
So as I obviously don't count as a genuinely experienced horse person my opinion obviously doesn't count.
No where have I said that this horse wasn't a good racehorse, wasn't tough, sound and genuine. He also behaved very well at Badminton (as did pretty much each stallion on the day). Of course these are qualities we should be looking to breed into our eventers, how could anyone deny that?
But there are loads of tough, sound genuine horses out there.
My main question is why was Mine invited to Badminton? IMO he had no place there at present (not to say in future he wouldn't)
He turned up and was well behaved and cute. He also couldn't display any jumping technique, trotted round so stiff that he boardered on unlevel at times and wasn't even on the bridle for the majority of it - I could have presented my 5yo better to the crowd. So we had a stallion that couldn't show his jump or his movement (I wish I had taken some video to back this up, as it seems many responding on this thread didn't actually watch the stallion parade)
And producing horses isn't just about putting white bandages on them! Can't even believe that was a serious comment on this thread.
It might sound like I am dissing the horse, hell I'm not - I'll order 10 please if they are as good at racing as he is. He just wasn't a good candidate to be paraded at Badminton.
No where have I said that this horse wasn't a good racehorse, wasn't tough, sound and genuine. He also behaved very well at Badminton (as did pretty much each stallion on the day). Of course these are qualities we should be looking to breed into our eventers, how could anyone deny that?
But there are loads of tough, sound genuine horses out there.
My main question is why was Mine invited to Badminton? IMO he had no place there at present (not to say in future he wouldn't)
He turned up and was well behaved and cute. He also couldn't display any jumping technique, trotted round so stiff that he boardered on unlevel at times and wasn't even on the bridle for the majority of it - I could have presented my 5yo better to the crowd. So we had a stallion that couldn't show his jump or his movement (I wish I had taken some video to back this up, as it seems many responding on this thread didn't actually watch the stallion parade)
And producing horses isn't just about putting white bandages on them! Can't even believe that was a serious comment on this thread.
It might sound like I am dissing the horse, hell I'm not - I'll order 10 please if they are as good at racing as he is. He just wasn't a good candidate to be paraded at Badminton.
snoopmummy
Member
White bandages may look very flashy, but can also hide leg problems, and for that reason alone I think they should be banned. TRUE horsemen/women can see past all the frippery and can't be conned. I don't breed eventers, but if I did then I WOULD use a stallion that had proven speed and stamina !!
I also feel REALLY sorry for poor Grafenstolz because no matter how good he might be he has to overcome his unfortunate connections that would CERTAINLY put me off using him !! I just couldn't put up with the arrogance !!!
And Boxffrogs, permanently looking down your nose at people might well lead to you tripping and falling flat on your face !
I also feel REALLY sorry for poor Grafenstolz because no matter how good he might be he has to overcome his unfortunate connections that would CERTAINLY put me off using him !! I just couldn't put up with the arrogance !!!
And Boxffrogs, permanently looking down your nose at people might well lead to you tripping and falling flat on your face !
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So as I obviously don't count as a genuinely experienced horse person my opinion obviously doesn't count.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not referring to you, B_J - hell, I don't even know you! For me your posts have been well-argued and fair. Its the folks who tend to diss every stallion other than their own whilst not actually knowing as much as many others on this forum that get under my skin!
[ QUOTE ]
And producing horses isn't just about putting white bandages on them! Can't even believe that was a serious comment on this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, exactly
[ QUOTE ]
It might sound like I am dissing the horse, hell I'm not - I'll order 10 please if they are as good at racing as he is. He just wasn't a good candidate to be paraded at Badminton.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree that it was probably unfortunate, as I've said above, that the owners weren't more prepared for what was needed, and Badminton was probably not the best showcase for this stallion's first outing. On a positive note, because of the research that people like alleycat have done on him now, we will all know much more about him and his pedigree! (His stud card, bless, is not at all informative, as you might imagine .... I think an intensive session on marketing a sports horse stallion might be required! SHBGB provide this? If not, why not?)
So as I obviously don't count as a genuinely experienced horse person my opinion obviously doesn't count.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not referring to you, B_J - hell, I don't even know you! For me your posts have been well-argued and fair. Its the folks who tend to diss every stallion other than their own whilst not actually knowing as much as many others on this forum that get under my skin!
[ QUOTE ]
And producing horses isn't just about putting white bandages on them! Can't even believe that was a serious comment on this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, exactly
[ QUOTE ]
It might sound like I am dissing the horse, hell I'm not - I'll order 10 please if they are as good at racing as he is. He just wasn't a good candidate to be paraded at Badminton.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree that it was probably unfortunate, as I've said above, that the owners weren't more prepared for what was needed, and Badminton was probably not the best showcase for this stallion's first outing. On a positive note, because of the research that people like alleycat have done on him now, we will all know much more about him and his pedigree! (His stud card, bless, is not at all informative, as you might imagine .... I think an intensive session on marketing a sports horse stallion might be required! SHBGB provide this? If not, why not?)
alleycat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
because of the research that people like alleycat have done on him now
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm flattered, but really I'd say the footwork has been done by firm, who linked the horse at Badminton with the winner on the racecourse; magic, for the TB sires article and yourself, for the pictures- and of course it was B&J who started the discussion on the Badminton parade in the first place.
Which, I suppose, is the beauty of a forum; as long as this post doesn't get pulled because of our pet troll...
because of the research that people like alleycat have done on him now
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm flattered, but really I'd say the footwork has been done by firm, who linked the horse at Badminton with the winner on the racecourse; magic, for the TB sires article and yourself, for the pictures- and of course it was B&J who started the discussion on the Badminton parade in the first place.
Which, I suppose, is the beauty of a forum; as long as this post doesn't get pulled because of our pet troll...
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I think what people might be forgetting here is that Mine has been first and foremost a racehorse and his connections have been used to the way of doing things in the racing world so were totally unprepared for what should be involved in a sport horse parade at Badminton.
In racing, a stallion parade is just that; you don't see them ridden at all, they are led at walk around the paddock and they will be stood up for you too. They will be shown in just a stallion bridle and anything with boots or bandages on would be totally ignored and slated for hiding its limbs. That is it; a far cry from Badminton, totally different.
So, all in all, in their totally 'sport horse novice' way of doing things, they did very well to actually have him under saddle at all. It was just such a shame that this year's parade came a little too early for him to have been better schooled and balanced from leaving the race course but you can't take away his temperament, it seemed to have been superb. Their lessons will have been learnt and hopefully he will be back again to show properly what he is made of but I do hope they keep those boots off!
In racing, a stallion parade is just that; you don't see them ridden at all, they are led at walk around the paddock and they will be stood up for you too. They will be shown in just a stallion bridle and anything with boots or bandages on would be totally ignored and slated for hiding its limbs. That is it; a far cry from Badminton, totally different.
So, all in all, in their totally 'sport horse novice' way of doing things, they did very well to actually have him under saddle at all. It was just such a shame that this year's parade came a little too early for him to have been better schooled and balanced from leaving the race course but you can't take away his temperament, it seemed to have been superb. Their lessons will have been learnt and hopefully he will be back again to show properly what he is made of but I do hope they keep those boots off!
magic104
Well-Known Member
" think what people might be forgetting here is that" Actually I think most people here were not forgetting at all. I would have said 99% have been understanding to the problems, & there has been more support the slating here.
hilly
Well-Known Member
I like him. Very much. Not at all what I expected so thank you for posting the pics as a picture does indeed speak a thousand words.
In fact, after reading the original post and this, looked at links for two other stallions who were 'correctly attired' and did the appropriate circus tricks.
One appears to have a 'pretty gallop' and the other - best that those limbs stay well wrapped up on public appearances. Like those who found Mine not their cup of tea, neither were they ..mine but to each their own.
If anything, I would prefer to have seen him even more stripped down without the saddlecloth and show him for what he is - a hard-working quality TB that appears to have taken everything in his workmanlike stride.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
In fact, after reading the original post and this, looked at links for two other stallions who were 'correctly attired' and did the appropriate circus tricks.
One appears to have a 'pretty gallop' and the other - best that those limbs stay well wrapped up on public appearances. Like those who found Mine not their cup of tea, neither were they ..mine but to each their own.
If anything, I would prefer to have seen him even more stripped down without the saddlecloth and show him for what he is - a hard-working quality TB that appears to have taken everything in his workmanlike stride.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
[ QUOTE ]
If anything, I would prefer to have seen him even more stripped down without the saddlecloth and show him for what he is - a hard-working quality TB that appears to have taken everything in his workmanlike stride.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, saddlecloths on anything are a pet hate of mine but I thought mentioning that AND boots might be pushing my luck a bit so I'm very glad you brought it up too!
If anything, I would prefer to have seen him even more stripped down without the saddlecloth and show him for what he is - a hard-working quality TB that appears to have taken everything in his workmanlike stride.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, saddlecloths on anything are a pet hate of mine but I thought mentioning that AND boots might be pushing my luck a bit so I'm very glad you brought it up too!
Fergal_Sharky
Member
Does anyone know what his stud fee is this season?
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think what people might be forgetting here is that Mine has been first and foremost a racehorse and his connections have been used to the way of doing things in the racing world so were totally unprepared for what should be involved in a sport horse parade at Badminton.
[/ QUOTE ]
He stands at a sporthorse stud- they breed a lot of sjers
I think what people might be forgetting here is that Mine has been first and foremost a racehorse and his connections have been used to the way of doing things in the racing world so were totally unprepared for what should be involved in a sport horse parade at Badminton.
[/ QUOTE ]
He stands at a sporthorse stud- they breed a lot of sjers
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know what his stud fee is this season?
[/ QUOTE ]
Doesnt say on the website-
http://www.allerthorpefarmstud.co.uk/stallions.html
Does anyone know what his stud fee is this season?
[/ QUOTE ]
Doesnt say on the website-
http://www.allerthorpefarmstud.co.uk/stallions.html
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
[ QUOTE ]
He stands at a sporthorse stud- they breed a lot of sjers
[/ QUOTE ]
I take your point but are there many stallion parades for showjumpers too that they might have experienced which might have prepared them better?
He stands at a sporthorse stud- they breed a lot of sjers
[/ QUOTE ]
I take your point but are there many stallion parades for showjumpers too that they might have experienced which might have prepared them better?
pinktiger
Well-Known Member
[quote
One appears to have a 'pretty gallop' and the other - best that those limbs stay well wrapped up on public appearances. Like those who found Mine not their cup of tea, neither were they ..mine but to each their own.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think the thing that stuck out most for me, was the trot, considering he was set amongst mostly /dressage/event stallions and for the purpose of suitable type for some kind of dressage, or dressage arena, his way of going wouldnt of inspired me in the dressage dept, IF i wanted a race horse then that would maybe the one for me, but as i want a dressage ability, not a tough racehorse i think i would of considered others on that basis, he did 'look' pretty, he, imo didnt move aswell as others!! (isnt just about boots and numnahs, its about movement, attitude, workmanship, raw talent, type for mare,jump (i dont think he jumped) has he sired jumpstock???????????????
One appears to have a 'pretty gallop' and the other - best that those limbs stay well wrapped up on public appearances. Like those who found Mine not their cup of tea, neither were they ..mine but to each their own.
It's a funny old world if a sire has to appear dressed up like a Katie Price fantasy horse to attract business. The stallion parade is a good idea but an even better one is to track down the dam/sisters/half-sisters of those at the real business end of Badminton. Even the glossiest stallion is only 50% of the equation.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think the thing that stuck out most for me, was the trot, considering he was set amongst mostly /dressage/event stallions and for the purpose of suitable type for some kind of dressage, or dressage arena, his way of going wouldnt of inspired me in the dressage dept, IF i wanted a race horse then that would maybe the one for me, but as i want a dressage ability, not a tough racehorse i think i would of considered others on that basis, he did 'look' pretty, he, imo didnt move aswell as others!! (isnt just about boots and numnahs, its about movement, attitude, workmanship, raw talent, type for mare,jump (i dont think he jumped) has he sired jumpstock???????????????
magic104
Well-Known Member
A lot of succesful event horses trace back to flat racehorses not necessary ones that have jumped. He is race trained & that is a totally different ball game. Dont get me wrong you can see racehorses move & think that could train up lovely for dressage, but their way of schooling is totally different to the way you would ride for flat work. I have seen experienced riders get on a horse & make it dance, its owner has got on & nothing special. Yes it helps if a horse has natural talent, but that can be obscured under saddle. It would be interesting to see Mind at liberty, just to see if there is a difference. Whether there is or there's not, as already said a stallion is only 50% & no one to my knowledge has ever bred the will to win in a horse. Yes it helps if it's parents have been winners, because hopefully whatever motivated them is passed on. There are racehorses that fail not because they are too slow, but because they dont want to beat the horse running next to it. There are dressage horses that dont gain the marks in the dressage ring because they loose that sparkle. How many times has a trainer said that is worth an 8 or whatever, but go to the shows & it always eludes. Horses have to want to do the job you are asking, if they dont, then no amount of ability on either side of its breeding is going to make it a champion. How many horses have overcome their poor conformation/movement because they have the heart in the job they are doing. Breeding is complex because there are so many eliments to it. Mine has a place, probably more so then some stallions that are standing. What is surprising is that there are no offspring against him either on NED or Racing Post, it is looking unlikely he has anything on the ground yet to judge.
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know what his stud fee is this season?
[/ QUOTE ]
His stud card said that he was on "special offer" at Badminton for £450
Does anyone know what his stud fee is this season?
[/ QUOTE ]
His stud card said that he was on "special offer" at Badminton for £450