Modern livery - adequate?

[wench]

The area of the country my horse was in last year has bad land for turning out on over winter. I was well aware of that before I moved.

The yards that had loads better turnout and better riding facilities would have cost me about £800-£1000 a month. As well as the fuel and time to get there.

The yard I was at did have turnout over winter, it was just limited. I also paid for my horse to be exercised.

According to many of the posters on here I shouldn't have had a horse at all. How many of you can afford to spend £1k a month on livery?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

In times past, many horses never saw a paddock. They spent their working lives, well...working. In between work, they stood in a stall, or if they were very lucky, a loose box.

You can keep a horse happily in your back bedroom if it is working hard every day. The problem comes when it is stood, bored half to death in a half acre paddock for 99% of the time. Worse if also fed far too much grain or mix instead of forage, as is usually the case.

precisely. most horses are not worked enough.


and as has been mentioned, people do not want to pay for good livery. How many times do we hear how £25pw is plenty to spend on DIY livery? Then they want a school, a bowling green for a paddock that can be used year round for themselves, storage space, decent hay/straw, good fencing, staff to help them out when needed and more recently paddock bloody paradises and areas of hard standing. And at £25pw YOs have to have more animals to try and make ends meet.

 

[cbmcts]

I'm finally in a (financial) position to get another riding horse - I had 2 retired for the last 5 years and a third just wasn't feasible. Since I lost the old boy earlier this year I could afford another but, with much regret I've decided not to because I can't find a single yard in a 20 mile radius that I'd be happy with especially in winter.

Yes, I know Essex clay is notorious and that there has been an unbelieveable amount of development in the last 10 years due to now being the commuter belt for London but the standards of care are ridiculously low. While I understand the difficulties managing clay in the wet, it seems to have become the norm to just close fields rather than attempt to maintain ditches, hardcore gateways or install drainage. As a result overstocking happens - yards decide that they have enough room for as many horses by counting how many stables they can cram in. Exactly the same attitude in the £150pw yards as the £25pw DIYs too.

I had to move my 2 retired horses nearly 100 miles away to get grass livery where they wouldn't be standing hock deep in mud for 6 months of the year - it's very cheap, mainly because the horses only need haying (expensive!) in the worst of the weather because they are on quality, rotated, managed old grazing all year round. Even ancient TBs come out of the winter there looking great. As a native owner I groan when mine came into spring fat as pigs! No hard feed required for 90% of the herd.

Now, I do understand the financial side of running a yard - I looked very hard at buying one particular yard in 2006/07 and even before the recession livery wasn't really viable as an income generating business. It would have just about paid the bills but not a salary. I would have either had to continue the day job or build several income streams on the yard like dealing, schooling livery or commercially rent the spare buildings. I would have looked at the cost of the land as a long term saving/pension scheme to cashed in, hopefully with profit when I wanted to retire. To me and my financial advisor that was the only way to do it. As it happens, I started a new job about the same time and decided to concentrate on that instead.

As a result of those 6 months going over books, doing business plans and talking to banks I can sympathise with YOs but, and this is a big but finances are not an excuse to overstock your land and directly contribute to poor horse welfare. When they are saying that they can't afford to have less liveries, maybe they need to look at other ways of generating income that doesn't include adding more animals?

In many cases, they would have spare buildings - so let them for storage or workshops or buy in hay/feed and resell it? If that isn't possible (planning and rating issues often) then start teaching, schooling or dealing and renting out the fantastic facilities that have taken over a large chunk of the available grazing. Start treating it like a business and running it as your job rather than is often the case IME of a 12 box yard with 5 acres and the YO has 5 horses of their own that they want to keep for free so they fill the other 7 boxes with liveries and expect that to both pay their bills AND provide them with an income...all for a couple of hours a day, if that of actual work. It just ain't gonna happen.

 

[criso]

How many of you can afford to spend £1k a month on livery?

Obviously it depends on what's available in your area but some of the very high end yards I can think of in Herts which are £1000 plus are the very yards guilty of doing individual turnout on postage stamp areas. Many of the owners don't want to turn out with other horses. They are very smart yards with great facilities including things like showers and changing rooms for the owners and indoor schools which are a rarity;

There are yards that have pretty good turnout however they are not as smart and don't have as fantastic facilities. They don't charge as much

 

[hoggedmane]

I feel so lucky to be on the yard I am on. 70 acres for about 25 horses. Turnout in herds - approx 10- 15 horses. All year turnout (and they nearly all live out 24/7). Ill horses or laminitics catered for if needed. A good school. YO lives on site. Free box parking. Excellent hay made by the owner. Assistance if I want it - paid per job done. I feed simple systems which YO buys in so I don't have to go to feed store. Secure tack room. I have a stable if I need it although she lives out. Fantastic YO. Pooh picking rota which is well managed.

M3/4 corridor so not a cheap area but less than £30 a week DIY.

 

[Slave2Magic]

I am very happy with where my 2 are on livery. We have no electric or running water but the horses are on full outdoor livery which means they are never shut in a stable. If the fields are wet they go on a large hard standing area with open stables. It suits my big youngster as he has lived out since 9 months old and it is better for my mare as she is 14 and is better moving around 24/7.

 

[Spring Feather]

I have read this thread quite a few times now and always going to answer and then not. I think I've figured out why now. Horses are domesticated animals and really they're quite flexible creatures. They almost *evolve* to fit in with our changing lifestyles. I'm not so sure that it's really a 'either keep a horse this way or don't have one'.

I have about 50 horses living on my farm and I have large pastures fields and also smaller paddocks so I kind of see it from both sides here. I never keep more than 6 horses in a field regardless of whether it is a 10 acre pasture field or a smaller 4 or 5 acre paddock. I have to move horses around from time to time and they all seem happy in whichever field they're in. Tbh the ones in the bigger fields don't use any more of their field than the ones in the smaller paddocks. You'd think they'd wander off to the far ends of these fields and sometimes they do but mostly they don't, they tend to stay around the corrals where the hay is and the people and goings on are happening.

I'm very easy going about this as I've kept horses in a number of different countries and they're all kept differently but they all seem to be happy enough being fed, worked and given companionship. I think it's more about what the horse is used to and how it's been raised. If it knows no better than what it's always had then is that wrong and people should no longer keep horses unless they're living on the Plains? I don't know, as I say I'm very much on the fence with this one and I don't think there are any hard and fast rules (although I'm a stickler for good fencing!)

 

[spotty_pony]

I agree that most modern yards are inadequate. I no longer keep my horses on a livery yard as IMO there were too many silly rules and yard politics. Even on DIY, you couldn't completely look after your horse yourself as turnout was limited in the winter, amount of bedding and forage was also controlled in some cases too! I now keep my horses on a Farm, there is only one other livery there and the owner has a horse too. We get unlimited hay and straw included, and we also buy in Haylage from another local farmer during the winter too. I have full control over the horse's routine, can make sure they get ad-lib forage, and as much turnout as possible. We have plenty of grazing and the horses are happy and so am I! Can't say I would ever want to go back to a Livery Yard now, just doesn't suit me or my horses!

 

[hoggedmane]

I agree to you Spring Feather about horses being adaptable which is what has made them such good friends to man. There are many different ways to keep horses and who is to say which is best.

However I don't agree about them not using the space they are given. Ours have very large winter fields and they do use the whole field. It is lovely to see them and every now and then they will have a blast together and at least we don't have to worry about them stopping suddenly. They don't get hay in the field but that means they don't hang around the gate but move around in what appears to be a natural way.

Any domestic setting is not a wild setting and horses undoubtedly live longer now because of the care they are given. I feel very fortunate that mine can live as naturally as possible while still benefitting from mod cons like a warm rug and good food.

I do agree that there are many horses kept in conditions which I would not consider acceptable - poor fencing, weedy, ragworty fields for example. I don't know if this is any worse than a good few years ago when I was a child as I remember many fields with barbed wire and seeing ragwort then.

 

[amandaco2]

Over stocking us a big issue. Been to places keeping 13 on 6 acres, needless to say sept to may there was no turning out!
im glad I have 14 acres for my 4 horses, they go to the 10 acres for jan to march just hacking holiday time, and on the 4 acres in summer when they get worked 5 to 7 days per week.

 

[twiggy2]

as long as they get daily turn out ALL year round 9minimum of 8hrs per day) and the company of others (communal turn out is ideal but over a fence is doable depending on the horses)-the turn out does not have to be grass but it does need to be a sound surface underfoot and big enough for a gallop about-a forage based diet is a must too-if we can have this and my horse is happy so am I

 

[rug~addict]

I haven't read all ththe posts but the description sums up my old and current yard. The difference being not what I can or wanted to pay as they cost the same. The huge difference is the yard owner and their mind set!
Our old yard was all about money. More horses ment more money. Single paddocks where the horses were lucky to get 3 canter strides in. No grass and adequate stables. All the land was horse sick, its been grazed for 9 years with nothing put back in and 16 horses/ponies to 7 acres.

New yard. Owner just wants to have a couple of liverys to pay for her two. 9 acres to 4 horses and shared paddocks with beautifully built American barn style stables.

So I guess my point is its not always about what you can or want to pay but weather the owner is a greedy arse or not!

 

[spacefaer]

I've read this thread with interest, as I've run/been on several livery yards over the years. I would agree with all the posters about costs/available land etc, but would add a subsidary comment

We have hunters who get summer turnout, in pairs, unshod, on decent sized fields. We try and pick the pairs that will get on, so they have a good time together with minimal risk of injury. There is one, older, gelding, who lacks social skills, and who, by the end of the summer, will have reduced whichever friend he is with, to a cowering, submissive wreck, if allowed to. Once shod, he is never turned out with our other horses, as he would cause immense damage.

The idea of putting him in a herd environment, with other peoples' horses.... the carnage would not be pretty..... he uses teeth and feet and is not going to learn social skills and manners at his age (or not without significant damage) If I was on a livery yard that forced me to turn out as a herd, I would leave so fast, the dust would still be rising as the gate swung shut.

More injuries are caused by shifting populations in a herd (and even by bringing a horse away to ride and then returning it, you are subtly changing the herd dynamic) and I could never bring myself to put my guys out with someone else's horses.

 

[NinjaPony]

But that's in comparison to other yards, most of which won't be profitable in any meaningful sense. It probably isn't pricey in terms of actual cost/value.

Probably not-I think it's well worth the money for what I get. Like I said, it's a tricky one- a balance between having enough profit to keep a yard running well whilst attracting and keeping liveries...

 

[cptrayes]

I agree to you Spring Feather about horses being adaptable which is what has made them such good friends to man. There are many different ways to keep horses and who is to say which is best.

However I don't agree about them not using the space they are given. Ours have very large winter fields and they do use the whole field. It is lovely to see them and every now and then they will have a blast together and at least we don't have to worry about them stopping suddenly. They don't get hay in the field but that means they don't hang around the gate but move around in what appears to be a natural way.

I agree with you. I have twelve acres and my horses have a number of 'bedrooms' which are all on the borders where they rest, and they graze the entire field. Their favorite game is to start in the far bottom corner, gallop like bats out of hell to the top, stop, snort, turn, and belt back down again. And repeat until knackered

 

[smellsofhorse]

I do agree.
But admit it must be hard for someone to admit it.

They could have a horse they love dearly but larval yard isn't great , they don't drive or don't have time or money to go to a farther away but better yard.
People will then turn a blind eye and put up with it and make do.
They tend to do this than admit they should give up their horse .

I don't like the amount of loans and shares out there .
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it.
But it's the ones that can't afford time or money wise to look after their horse properly unless they have a sharer, I think is wrong.

 

[AngieandBen]

People aren't prepared to pay what it costs to provide decent livery, so i'm not convinced all the blame lies with yard owners. If you aren't happy with postage stamp fields, either pay for something better or don't have a horse... The owners are the ones making these choices and creating a market.

Yep this; I have advertised ( private home with no other liveries ) I have a big 17 x 13 stable for rent, as much grazing as you want nice hacking and I'm here all the time; But I don't have a school and its not posh ( although the stables are lovely stone ones. I have had no takers for £110 diy a month which I'm quite shocked at. The place down the road which only has 1.5 acres is full with three liveries, they do have a small school tho!

 

[AngieandBen]

Also I've had comments that £30 a week is too expensive for just a stable and field?!! I don't understand this, can you get a hotel room for £5 a night?!

 

[Penny Less]

In the South East land is at a premium so you tend to get lots of horses on little land. I hate tiny paddocks as my two are retired and the only exercise they get is in their paddock so they need room to roam. There is a great ragwort problem near me as some yards don't seem to have a removal policy. My yard is very well run and well maintained but is a basic yard with no fancy facilities. If you can only pay for cheap livery you will not get cross country courses, arenas, etc. My last yard had water on a meter and the YO showed me his water bill, it was horrendous but liveries left hoses running and generally wasted water.

 

[marmalade76]

I totally agree with you, OP. I visited a yard to view a horse with a friend a couple of years ago and I thought the turn out was dire, small tape paddocks on the side of an exposed hill with no shade or shelter at all. And I don't care what anyone says, rugs cannot make up for not being able to get out of the wind or sun. No doubt this yard was not cheap, it had an indoor and outdoor school, lovely stables and a waiting list (so I was told), but none of that could make up for the dire turnout as far as I'm concerned. I ended up having a discussion with one of the liveries there (can't remember how it came about) and she seemed to think it was a marvellous set up, after all, you can add warm rugs in winter and UV rugs in summer, WTF?

I know I am lucky, I have several acres at my disposal for my four so they can live out all year, they have loads of natural shelter, even their fat paddocks are full of trees and bushes and I don't have to share it with anyone else's horses. In winter, if one field becomes short of grass or cut up I simply move them to another. They are happy there and are often found to be at the far end/top of the hill when I arrive to see them. But I only have one stable and no school and there are many who would rather have better facilities than decent grazing. Also there are the YO s who will cram as many on to make it pay, but TBH, I don't think anyone should go into the DIY livery business expecting to earn a wage out of it, it's just not possible (the yard I referred to above is run along side a working farm so not the soul income there).

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

The area of the country my horse was in last year has bad land for turning out on over winter. I was well aware of that before I moved.

The yards that had loads better turnout and better riding facilities would have cost me about £800-£1000 a month. As well as the fuel and time to get there.

The yard I was at did have turnout over winter, it was just limited. I also paid for my horse to be exercised.

According to many of the posters on here I shouldn't have had a horse at all. How many of you can afford to spend £1k a month on livery?

I agree with you. I find it ridiculous that some think if you can't provide an ideal environment you shouldn't have a horse. It's not realistic. I know many who keep dogs, cats and children in less than ideal circumstances too. Perhaps nobody should ever have anything they can't provide an ideal environment for? I don't think that's necessary. We have welfare laws to try to prevent and to deal with the worst homes.

I don't know anyone who went out to buy a horse because they wanted to give a horse a good home. There were always other reasons eg they wanted a pet, wanted to compete or hunt, or simply liked riding and wanted more freedom than in a riding school whilst doing so. When people buy horses for their own needs there will inevitably be compromises. Someone posted about those who "turn a blind eye rather than admit they shouldn't have a horse". I see that as more a matter of opinion. My horses don't live in an ideal environment or have an ideal life, I have my eyes wide open to that, but I judge them to have an adequate environment / life and see no reason why I shouldn't have them.

 

[marmalade76]

Also I've had comments that £30 a week is too expensive for just a stable and field?!! I don't understand this, can you get a hotel room for £5 a night?!

I pay £5 per week per pony plus £5 a week for my stable (only use it now and again, for box rest and the odd occasion I need to keep one clean and dry) so a total of £25 per week That is mates rates, though, and my husband does lots of work for the owner and ends up not charging her for half of it.

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

For me now turnout is the most important thing - don't care about stables or schools, because turnout is what makes my horse happy. Horse and I survived for 9 months with 10 acres to 15 horses; heavy clay, no grass, never poo-picked or rested, and no turnout at all Nov - March. She's since been moved to 15 acres with one other horse and is out 24/7 and is happy as a pig in poo . There's no way I could go back to overgrazed land.

We're currently looking at buying our own place and I'm worrying that 6 acres isn't going to be enough for 2-3 horses to be out 24/7. I can't understand the people that are happy to have 2 horses on 1 acre or less.

 

[MagicMelon]

Very, very few equines these days work anywhere near hard enough to compensate for it. I'm not talking about horses being kept hunt fit, or who are competing hard - these are hairy cobs, small ponies, youngsters, etc, etc.

Thing is I don't believe its acceptable to stable a horse 24/7 even if they are really fit and go out on days hunting or whatever is done with them - the horse still misses the basic freedom to roam around a field grazing grass and socialising, these are such a basic necessity IMO and one which seems to be so often overlooked. I know plenty of folk who believe a horse should be stabled if it is to show jump or whatever, why?! They seem to be under some illusion that the horse will be fitter and kept better physically by keeping it stabled, really bizarre. People think its ok to keep a horse cooped up in a box permanently because they get an hour of ridden work (great, bet the horse looks forward to that...) and then maybe some more time going in circles on a horse walker (which IMO is awful!). People have very odd perceptions of what is ok and what is not. Weirdly it only seems to happen in the horse world, I think most people know what is an acceptable way of keeping a dog / cat / cow / sheep for example so why not a horse...

 

[skint1]

I am extremely happy with my livery yard, even though the YO has just put up the rent by £10 per horse for the first time in forever, it is still excellent value. The YO is a farmer and whilst I am sure the livery represents a good steady income for him I like that it's not his main source of income, I have friends who are on yards where there is a real driving need to make every inch pay and there's a completely different feel to it.

The fields are a good size in that you can actually call them fields, a horse has space to have a good hoon should s/he wish to horses are turned out in groups of 3-4, the equine population on the yard is fairly static, people rarely leave and I've never known it overstocked.

The stables are a nice size and well ventilated, There is year round turn out available, we tend to bring in at night in autumn/winter to save the field. There is a school but I don't really use it, the hacking is amazing and mostly off road. The YO/YM don't get involved in yard politics and good quality haylage/straw is supplied as part of rent package in winter months but can be purchased at other times if required. We have a lot of autonomy in how we manage the fields, this is good and bad. I would say the most challenging thing is negotiating with other liveries to reach a compromise in how the grazing or whatever is managed in a field with horses belonging to more than one owner.

I think we have to accept that as pressure on land sees towns expand into the countryside in the future yards like mine will be increasingly rare and the postage stamp paddock yard with all the facilities but not much grazing land will prevail.

 

[redredruby]

I agree with you. I find it ridiculous that some think if you can't provide an ideal environment you shouldn't have a horse. It's not realistic. I know many who keep dogs, cats and children in less than ideal circumstances too. Perhaps nobody should ever have anything they can't provide an ideal environment for? I don't think that's necessary. We have welfare laws to try to prevent and to deal with the worst homes.

I don't know anyone who went out to buy a horse because they wanted to give a horse a good home. There were always other reasons eg they wanted a pet, wanted to compete or hunt, or simply liked riding and wanted more freedom than in a riding school whilst doing so. When people buy horses for their own needs there will inevitably be compromises. Someone posted about those who "turn a blind eye rather than admit they shouldn't have a horse". I see that as more a matter of opinion. My horses don't live in an ideal environment or have an ideal life, I have my eyes wide open to that, but I judge them to have an adequate environment / life and see no reason why I shouldn't have them.

I completely agree with this - I have made compromises regarding how I keep my horses in order to be able to do what I want with them, but having a horse is a partnership - it has to work for both the human and the horse! Whilst welfare of the horse is of course the priority, I freely admit I am not altruistic enough to completely sacrifice my enjoyment in order to provide the 'ideal' environment (whatever that may be).

 

[Spring Feather]

However I don't agree about them not using the space they are given. Ours have very large winter fields and they do use the whole field. It is lovely to see them and every now and then they will have a blast together and at least we don't have to worry about them stopping suddenly. They don't get hay in the field but that means they don't hang around the gate but move around in what appears to be a natural way.

Well yes I suspect that if I didn't feed all the horses here ad-lib hay all year round then they would also have to go off grazing for their own forage, and there's plenty of it. My horses are used to having hay always and they like their hay so although they do wander off occasionally, the vast majority of the time they stay where the hay is regardless of the size of their fields.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I have thought about this more and more recently as these days I drive past a yard everyday with very small, taped paddocks. I completely understand that people keep their horses in a variety of ways and according to different budgets, but I do start to feel that I would rather not have horses at all than to keep them in such a way. This particular place offers really tiny paddocks, mostly bare, without any real natural shelter. Some horses have a paddock to themselves and others in pairs, but personally I would rather they took all the tape out and made one herd but with more room. I feel strongly that horses should have room to canter and gallop when turned out... how depressing it must be to spend your entire life confined to a space without the freedom to really move.

I'm not saying my set-up is perfect either but freedom to move around and adequate shelter are vital in my opinion. I also don't agree with individual turnout (at least not 24 hours a day) but if they can see other horses next door then I guess it's OK (if there are no other options).

 

[AngieandBen]

Well yes I suspect that if I didn't feed all the horses here ad-lib hay all year round then they would also have to go off grazing for their own forage, and there's plenty of it. My horses are used to having hay always and they like their hay so although they do wander off occasionally, the vast majority of the time they stay where the hay is regardless of the size of their fields.

Each to their own, but I would never feed hay if there was plenty of grass........lots of pennies! 30 small bales lasts my three a year

 

[AngieandBen]

I have thought about this more and more recently as these days I drive past a yard everyday with very small, taped paddocks. I completely understand that people keep their horses in a variety of ways and according to different budgets, but I do start to feel that I would rather not have horses at all than to keep them in such a way. This particular place offers really tiny paddocks, mostly bare, without any real natural shelter. Some horses have a paddock to themselves and others in pairs, but personally I would rather they took all the tape out and made one herd but with more room. I feel strongly that horses should have room to canter and gallop when turned out... how depressing it must be to spend your entire life confined to a space without the freedom to really move.

I'm not saying my set-up is perfect either but freedom to move around and adequate shelter are vital in my opinion. I also don't agree with individual turnout (at least not 24 hours a day) but if they can see other horses next door then I guess it's OK (if there are no other options).

Your place is amazing If I didn't have my own land, I would be on your doorstep !