Modern livery - adequate?

[Spring Feather]

Each to their own, but I would never feed hay if there was plenty of grass........lots of pennies! 30 small bales lasts my three a year

Tell me about it lol. I went through 780 large round hardcore bales last year and a fair few small squares. But the horses like having hay so I'm happy to give it to them

 

[honetpot]

Looking that the behavioural problems and problems with horses suffering from field injuries and obesity I can not believe that being cooped up in a quarter of an acre or less out door patch can be good for their long term mental or physical health.
Horses are social creatures and I despair when young horses are turned out on small patches and then of course become a handful when someone wants to do something with them, so obviously they must need: a calmer(what the hell is that?), their teeth, back, their mind read or what ever guff that someone will sell the delusional desperate owner. All horses need turn out with company and lots of poor quality forage to chew on, ones that are worked hard will probably quite happily sand for 22hrs a day chewing hay but the majority of horses are not worked hard, and that's the problem.
Studies have been done that show exercise is good for bone density, studies have been done on the need for forage in the diet to promote mental and physical wellbeing in the horse but owners seem to think the chance of the odd kick is worse than the known complications of poor horse management.
Mine live out most of the time, had three gelding over 16hands one spring charging round their four acre paddock for hours on end slipping and sliding in mud, none broke not even the teenage TB, they were at livery but I manage their paddock and it was me that harrowed and seeded afterwards. If I had been on most yards they would have been put on the naughty step in solitary.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Each to their own, but I would never feed hay if there was plenty of grass........lots of pennies! 30 small bales lasts my three a year

yes, although feeding hay daily (year round) is thought to be a factor in protecting against grass sickness and atypical myopathy just fyi

 

[twiggy2]

well I dont think my dogs lives are always ideal but I would not consider keeping them in a crate for 20+ hrs per day, it amazes me that people think keeping a horse in a stable 20+ hrs per day is ok

 

[HollyWoozle]

Mine live out most of the time, had three gelding over 16hands one spring charging round their four acre paddock for hours on end slipping and sliding in mud, none broke not even the teenage TB, they were at livery but I manage their paddock and it was me that harrowed and seeded afterwards. If I had been on most yards they would have been put on the naughty step in solitary.

This is pretty much how it is at mine. Ours gallop around, slipping and sliding, but I would rather they did that and run the risk of injury than stand around confined all day. It's what they want to do! It also keeps our shetland (from AngieandBen!) and our old pony running around as he has to keep out of the way when the two bigguns are being loonies. I'm sure a livery yard would despair at having ours there!

AngieandBen - thank you for your nice words! I wish our field was bigger but the shape of it helps as they can charge all the way around if they want to gallop around.

 

[AngieandBen]

yes, although feeding hay daily (year round) is thought to be a factor in protecting against grass sickness and atypical myopathy just fyi

Oh ok, fair enough; but I don't remember the last time mine had hay in any quantity, they only time they have it if they are waiting for the farrier, all very well living out unrugged and are 23, 21 and 16 so I must be doing something right!

 

[HollyWoozle]

Oh ok, fair enough; but I don't remember the last time mine had hay in any quantity, they only time they have it if they are waiting for the farrier, all very well living out unrugged and are 23, 21 and 16 so I must be doing something right!

You know, Cookie still isn't that fussed about hay! It works out really well because I can put hay out for the others and he will just nibble at a little bit and then go off into the field to forage for himself. Really handy at stopping him from becoming a real porker!

 

[AngieandBen]

Tell me about it lol. I went through 780 large round hardcore bales last year and a fair few small squares. But the horses like having hay so I'm happy to give it to them

Oh my lol, how many horses have you got?!

 

[AngieandBen]

You know, Cookie still isn't that fussed about hay! It works out really well because I can put hay out for the others and he will just nibble at a little bit and then go off into the field to forage for himself. Really handy at stopping him from becoming a real porker!

Neither Ben or Turbo are bothered either. grass is greener !

 

[Spring Feather]

Oh my lol, how many horses have you got?!

50. And loads of grass lol!

 

[ihatework]

Modern livery has evolved to meet the market. If the YO needs to overstock land on small postage stamps then that is because liveries have unrealistic expectations of what they should get for their money. Being a YO is a mugs game.

I have always been very pro turnout, and very pro group turnout. All my life my horses have been turned out in groups and if they are in light/no work they live out 24/7/365.

If however they are competing they do so from a stable, although still with daily turnout. My current horse has turnout arrangements that had you asked me 3 years ago, I would never have considered. She is on small acreage individual turnout at my request (I also have the option of a larger field group turnout). This is multi factorial - I like to keep her grass restricted as she puts on weight easily, she is a very dominant character and would definitely get into kicking matches, and she is quite independant and actually isn't really bothered about company. She is much more settled on individual turnout than she was when I first got her and had her as a pair. She is a valuable competition horse so while she is working hard this type of routine suits her the best.

There will come a day when she winds down and will need to be integrated into a herd, but it will be done very carefully and minus shoes!

 

[Theocat]

I agree with you. I find it ridiculous that some think if you can't provide an ideal environment you shouldn't have a horse. It's not realistic. I know many who keep dogs, cats and children in less than ideal circumstances too. Perhaps nobody should ever have anything they can't provide an ideal environment for? I don't think that's necessary. We have welfare laws to try to prevent and to deal with the worst homes.

I don't know anyone who went out to buy a horse because they wanted to give a horse a good home. There were always other reasons eg they wanted a pet, wanted to compete or hunt, or simply liked riding and wanted more freedom than in a riding school whilst doing so. When people buy horses for their own needs there will inevitably be compromises. Someone posted about those who "turn a blind eye rather than admit they shouldn't have a horse".

I don't have a problem with people making compromises (within reason) - I just get annoyed when they try to portray it as being forced into something by a greedy / uncaring YO. The owner makes the choice - if they aren't happy they should do something about it; if they choose to accept it they should be honest about it and not just pretend it's out if their hands.

 

[Nudibranch]

I cant quote on here but in reply to sugar and spice, my point wasn't perfect vs nothing, it was inadequate vs nothing. Everyone has to compromise in some way. However I seem to see, and hear about, more and more horses being kept in unsuitable conditions. Some people compromise their horses far more than themselves it would seem.

 

[cbmcts]

Yep this; I have advertised ( private home with no other liveries ) I have a big 17 x 13 stable for rent, as much grazing as you want nice hacking and I'm here all the time; But I don't have a school and its not posh ( although the stables are lovely stone ones. I have had no takers for £110 diy a month which I'm quite shocked at. The place down the road which only has 1.5 acres is full with three liveries, they do have a small school tho!

You see, I'd pay more for decent grazing rather than a postage patch turnout with lots of facilities, The way I look at it is that I'd save the extra livery and more on hay AND I'd have sane horse. Win Win for me

I don't have a problem with people making compromises (within reason) - I just get annoyed when they try to portray it as being forced into something by a greedy / uncaring YO. The owner makes the choice - if they aren't happy they should do something about it; if they choose to accept it they should be honest about it and not just pretend it's out if their hands.

Yes, of course people have to take responsibility for how they keep their animals, nobody else makes the decisions! However, when you are told at yard after yard that " it does no harm, they'll hurt themselves in the mud, nobody turns out in winter (or even if it's wet in summer), that an hours exercise a day is enough" owners start to believe it because they feel they have no choice. That's what I meant by it's become the norm to restrict or ban turnout. As a result, when the horses do get out they go barmy, there are injuries and the ground is trashed so the above fallacies are 'proven'.

I don't want keeping a horse to go back being the preserve of the landed and the rich (I certainly wouldn't be able to afford one!) but we do have to consider true welfare over our own wants. Maybe livery does need to be more expensive, it certainly needs to be more business minded and professional and as horse owners we need to come away from the mindset that facilities ie, schools, walkers, loos, tearooms and competition opportunities are more important than proper turnout. At the moment I feel that there is too much emphasise on what we can do/have on a yard rather than our horses quality of life day in, day out.

I'm not judging anyone btw, I struggled badly with this before I retired mine and felt guilty/stressed about it all winter while I kept them in situations that weren't right. What can you do if that's all that's available? Move further from work? Well, I was already commuting 3 hours a day... Full/Part Livery? tried that but it wasn't any better. Pay a premium for extra space? That went well - not! Demand was just too high for any YOs to resist the extra money from more liveries. Believe me, I wasn't keeping mine on a shoestring. All I can do now is refuse to bring a new horse into an area where adequate livery is unavailable. Ok, so I'm the one that loses out here (at least until I retire and can move away to a more rural area ) but 15 years ago the reason I moved here was that while it added cost and time to my commute it was semi rural and there was space and land for my horses. In those 15 years I reckon we have lost 70 -80% of our grazing to development and various wildlife/SSI schemes. On the other hand, many more people have now moved here, thinking it's 'to the country' and want to have their own horse so there are probably 50% more horses in the area but only 20% of the grazing IYSWIM.

Roll on a lottery win or retirement I say

 

[Arzada]

Maybe livery does need to be more expensive, it certainly needs to be more business minded and professional and as horse owners we need to come away from the mindset that facilities ie, schools, walkers, loos, tearooms and competition opportunities are more important than proper turnout. At the moment I feel that there is too much emphasise on what we can do/have on a yard rather than our horses quality of life day in, day out.

Exactly. But when you look at equine college brochures they promote their amazing facilities but as turnout doesn't seem to come under the heading 'facilities' then it doesn't get mentioned. From limited experience there isn't much turnout at colleges and there must be many horse owners who are influenced by this.

 

[skint1]

It's sad to think people class facilities over turnout. I am only a lowly DIY happy hacker and my horse isn't particularly thrilled to have been turned out today in the rain, but I would rather pay a bit more rent for better turnout facilities

 

[AngieandBen]

It's sad to think people class facilities over turnout. I am only a lowly DIY happy hacker and my horse isn't particularly thrilled to have been turned out today in the rain, but I would rather pay a bit more rent for better turnout facilities

I actually had a lady come and look at my yard the other day...........turned it down because mine live out on 5 acres and her horse would have to come in at night on his own I give up...........I have grass.....lots of it......too much.........no takers lol

 

[Equi]

I don't need to livery thankfully, but if i was i would be a nightmare. At the end of the day it is a business and a service. It is not the livery owner being a good friend and helping you out by keeping your horse, they are being paid. You wouldn't go into a sit down restaurant and get your dinner on a paper plate and be told it was from another customer who didn't like it, you get what you expect. Some livery owners tend to have god complex and think they can get away with gathering money for little output - and people accept it cause the YO can just ask you to leave.

 

[Nudibranch]

I actually had a lady come and look at my yard the other day...........turned it down because mine live out on 5 acres and her horse would have to come in at night on his own I give up...........I have grass.....lots of it......too much.........no takers lol

Indeed! I've had two people turn me down for a companion loan because their precious babies would be turned out on 15 acres of good mixed grazing in the winter with a free access barn - rather than tucked up in a cosy little stable on their own....!

 

[Wagtail]

I would hate to have to use a livery yard again. I run one myself and try to make it as I would like it if I were a customer. The horses are all treated as well as my own. They get 24/7 turnout for as long as their owners want (including winter if they want). But my liveries choose to bring their horses in at night once the weather gets colder. Except for one who has a youngster who stays out with my youngster. They also have the choice of field or sand turnout during the winter. Again, all have chosen to have their horses in the sand turnout as the fields are on heavy clay and the horses would get very muddy if out in the fields once the weather turns consistently wet. Personally I think the horses are happier in the sand than in muddy fields. When the weather is bad and they are in the fields they hang around by the gates and stress to be in, whereas when they are out in the sand they seem to be content to stay out all day long. They have haylage in hay hutches inside the enclosure, and stay out for 7 - 8 hours every day no matter what the weather.

My memory of winter turnout as a livery customer was awful. Two - three hours stood in deep mud. That is, except for when I moved to my friend's yard and we had a lot more acreage per horse, and they stayed out longer, but is was still extremely muddy and I fought with mud fever every year. Since I have been running my yard, I have not had a single case of mud fever.

 

[cbmcts]

Wagtail,

While grazing is the ideal, sand turnout seems like a really good compromise to me. Room to move around, socialise and forage can be provided. Big bonus in that horses stay clean

I fully accept that we can't just magic up more space for horses on what is an already overcrowded, prone to wet, island so we need to start thinking of other ways, like hard standing/sand turnout and as owners be prepared to pay a fair price for it.

 

[Clannad48]

At a previous yard we had small turnout for only a couple of hours a day and the horses were fed 4 times a day, this was a smart competition yard. Yes it had all the facilities, horsewalker, manege, nice stables etc but our horse was not happy so we moved to somewhere that was decidedly scruffy, rough stables, you had to fetch and carry water and poo-pick. However, our horse flourished - as previously said the horse does not care whether the stable is modern and new, or old and tatty, whether it has a horsewalker and posh school, or long hours of happy hacking and company. Admittedly a lot depends whether you are a 'happy hacker' or a serious competitor as to the facilities you need, but at the end of the day struggling to pay an extortionate livery bill for services you do not need, stops you enjoying your time with your horse.

 

[Merrymoles]

Turnout is of great importance to me. My horse is currently out with just one other but they have loads of space, fab grazing, get on well together and don't particularly stress if separated.

I do think a lot does come down to the attitude of the YO. I voted with my feet from my previous yard where the YO refused to spend any money on maintenance at all! No harrowing, rolling, fertilising, resting, just a bunch of over-grazed fields sprouting more weeds than grass. It would not have taken much effort or money to sort it out but there was no interest in doing so. Needless to say, YO's horse was in the only decent field on the place.

Current yard is fab!

 

[coffeeandabagel]

Its incredibly difficult to get"good livery" where i am.

In the last 4 years I have now been at:

a large yard with "facilities" and horses crammed in with mud for turnout which was limited in the winter, run as part of the farm business. (some had lovely airy big stables, some in dark barns), good hacking,

a riding school / DIY yard with no chance of getting in the school and ragworty fields, good hacking

a private yard with just the owners horse and my 2, 24/7 turnout but no school which was a nightmare for me trying to rehab one horse and compete with the other, brill hacking though

a DIY yard with huge herds and only one herd of each sex, although it was 24/7 turnout which was brill for rehab horse but when he died new mare just got beat up and poor hacking, OK school,

and now v small part livery yard, big school but needing a top-up, good hacking, friendly people, helpful yard manager BUT small stables, surrounded by sycamores (v scary) and today I was the only one who turned out because of the rain - and TO will be limited through winter.

Should I move for more TO and bigger stable, safer fields?

I just cant find the perfect or even near perfect yard so people who seem to easily say "Move yards" make me feel very sad and depressed since I just dont see how I can find one.

 

[Goldenstar]

It is a lot about what the owner finds acceptable .
I would never ever keep a young ( as in prior to riding ) horse anywhere with out good proper sized fields I simply would not own young horse if I had to endure it being on turnout sand pens or hard standings as I find it completely unacceptable .
I also would not keep a horse in light work in such circumstances or an old horse no longer in work .
I can see it is possible to manage horses in situations with inadequate turnout as long they are in proper hard work and the owner has lots of time to make sure the horse has the care and exercise it needs or pays someone to do it but it's not how I would keep a horse that I owned .

 

[ihatework]

It is a lot about what the owner finds acceptable .
I would never ever keep a young ( as in prior to riding ) horse anywhere with out good proper sized fields I simply would not own young horse if I had to endure it being on turnout sand pens or hard standings as I find it completely unacceptable .
I also would not keep a horse in light work in such circumstances or an old horse no longer in work .
I can see it is possible to manage horses in situations with inadequate turnout as long they are in proper hard work and the owner has lots of time to make sure the horse has the care and exercise it needs or pays someone to do it but it's not how I would keep a horse that I owned .

Couldn't agree more!