Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?

Ambers Echo said:
Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.
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I agree that Mark Rashid was the best. I shall never forget how he helped a dressage lady to perfect her one-time changes in a matter of minutes. Plus he seemed to be a really nice guy and helped all sorts from the dressage horse to a bargy pony.
 
IME, many of the well handled young horses that went to the MR Stoneleigh demo in 1989 hated and were frightened of the join up process. They were comfortable around people and couldn't understand why this man kept sending them away when they tried to approach him.

My own 3yo thug coped fine with the whole occasion, as I knew he would. I would not have sent my other year older sec D/TB, a sensitive soul who would have been distraught at the handling.
 
Ladyinred said:
I loathe Monty Roberts (and others of similar fame and notoriety) He relies on smoke and mirrors plus a fair amount of mental cruelty and sly jabs of the 'Dooly' (Dually) whilst regaling the audience with anecdotes of his cruel father.

He maintains he wants to leave the world a better place for horses, well that is possibly his truest statement because when he leaves the world horses, will no longer be tormented by his unpleasant methods.

To those that think he is wonderful, I suggest you watch his videos with the sound off. Without the distraction of his voice it is only too plain to see what he really gets up to.
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Whole heartedly agree with this. Monty did my horse at the WHW a few years ago, they chose Tarquin because he was very showy and made Monty look good. He also responded well to the techniques. Because even though Monty didn't touch him before the demo, they worked my horse for a good few hours in the round pen with Monty watching him.
I had to beg to get the video of the demo and I watch it back now without the sound on and it is truly horrific. He did a lot of surreptitious jabbing on the Dually etc, Tarquin did at one point tell him where to go and nearly ran him down (good old Welsh D roots) Anyway he didn't solve Tarquin's problems and they all watched at the end of demo as I struggled to load my tired horse, him, Kelly Mark and Ian Vandenburg and not one offered to help.
Interestingly enough, two of my horses that I have had an incredibly strong bond with will not do 'join up' but happily follow me about and would do as I say regardless of the danger as they trust me. I do understand now that because both had been beaten in their past then that is why join up didn't work for them, but providing a consistent and fair handling environment let them learn to trust me, and you can't do that in 20 minutes in a pen.
 
Tiddlypom said:
IME, many of the well handled young horses that went to the MR Stoneleigh demo in 1989 hated and were frightened of the join up process. They were comfortable around people and couldn't understand why this man kept sending them away when they tried to approach him.
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I think the UK at some point had hundreds of bewildered, perfectly OK family horse wondering what the hell was going on after being chased round a round pen for no good reason. dont get me wrong, I know how it works when it works (lunging is a stylised form of join up when you think about it but with better cues, progression and goalposts when done well) but dont see its place with a normally brought up horse.
 
I have seen a Monty demo where I had a horse on livery (Keysoe) he watched a lot of horses working in the round pen and chose the ones he would use in the demo.
I wonder why the video has been removed? At Montys insistance? It didnt make him look good....
 
fburton said:
Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.


What do you think join-up is meant to do?
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I can see your point. There are many things that can go wrong if someone attempts join-up, as not everyone are naturally perceptive to what the horse is communicating, hence as you say miscommunication can easily happen. So at home it's probably best to be taught how do it by someone that's already mastered it. In a small school the 4 corners can be closed off by putting jumping poles across each corner.
By 'playing with your horse', I meant it that if you are proficient at joining up, then instead of riding on that day, it's like a fun 'day off' for you and your horse to strengthen the bond between you.

To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her. This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.

Have I misunderstood the meaning of join-up all this time?! :-O
 
fburton said:
Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!)/QUOTE]

do you think corners are a good or bad thing in this context? have heard an argument that the circle is a bad thing psychologically for the horse.
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Before join up was invented as a thing I used to play with my horse loose in the field. Not with the youngsters though!! I never had a dually or a stick but just body language would get my mare doing all sorts, we had an exceptional bond though. When I went in poo picking she would come over and we played.
 
npage123 said:
To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her. This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.
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There's what a technique is "meant" to do, and what it actually achieves. And they're not always the same thing.
 
Clodagh said:
Before join up was invented as a thing I used to play with my horse loose in the field. Not with the youngsters though!! I never had a dually or a stick but just body language would get my mare doing all sorts, we had an exceptional bond though. When I went in poo picking she would come over and we played.
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I used to with my first luso, we'd play tag (without the actual tagging part!) and a game which was alot like 'whats the time Mr Wolf'-he'd also play with a football that had a harness type thing on it and lob it about too and fro. he was an exceptional character, miss him all the time.
 
Nearly all the horses I've ever owned have followed me around. You don't have to do join up to get a connection with a horse; some just won't in a round pen situation and for some the chasing away waving a rope is positively harmful.
 
npage123 said:
I can see your point. There are many things that can go wrong if someone attempts join-up, as not everyone are naturally perceptive to what the horse is communicating, hence as you say miscommunication can easily happen. So at home it's probably best to be taught how do it by someone that's already mastered it. In a small school the 4 corners can be closed off by putting jumping poles across each corner.
By 'playing with your horse', I meant it that if you are proficient at joining up, then instead of riding on that day, it's like a fun 'day off' for you and your horse to strengthen the bond between you.
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I can see your point too. :) I'm wondering, though, whether this is the best way to go in pursuit of a stronger bond.

To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her. This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.

Have I misunderstood the meaning of join-up all this time?! :-O
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Well, different people have different understandings - that's for sure. Can they all be right? For example, researchers have shown that you can get what look like the same responses from a horse through purely mechanical means, using a remote-controlled car to move the horse around, and go on to claim that join-up can be explained entirely by behaviourist / conditioning processes. How much sense does it make then to describe the car as 'herd leader'?

There has been discussion about what individual elements of join-up signify - in particular, the 'licking and chewing' gesture that is usually seen at some point in a successful join-up. I have 'put my oar in' with regard to that matter in the past.

I am personally sceptical of both the 'herd leader' concept (especially when it gets mixed up with notions of dominance) and the idea that it can be usefully applied in our own interactions with horses. It seems an unnecessarily complicated idea and prone to misunderstanding - or, sometimes, understanding in any way that people see fit to justify behaving in the way they do towards horses, leading to misuse.

Incidentally, I came across the following clip in the last couple of days which raises questions about the 'herd leader' idea... https://youtu.be/zf_YHnob9dI?t=2m42s.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I used to with my first luso, we'd play tag (without the actual tagging part!) and a game which was alot like 'whats the time Mr Wolf'-he'd also play with a football that had a harness type thing on it and lob it about too and fro. he was an exceptional character, miss him all the time.
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Yes, just like that. I will never have another horse like her.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
"Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!)"

do you think corners are a good or bad thing in this context? have heard an argument that the circle is a bad thing psychologically for the horse.
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In the context of join-up, I think corners are unhelpful because horses can get 'stuck' in them. The advantage of a circle is it allows the horse to run away continuously without sudden direction changes being imposed by the shape of the arena (although the handler may impose them by blocking flight and pushing the horse in the other direction).
 
ycbm said:
Nearly all the horses I've ever owned have followed me around. You don't have to do join up to get a connection with a horse; some just won't in a round pen situation and for some the chasing away waving a rope is positively harmful.
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Following is natural for a horse that likes and trusts you. It's not the only reason why a horse might follow you, though, and it is of course possible to train a horse to follow - with liking and trusting not necessarily being at the forefront.
 
any horse being backed by me always has the saddle girthed up fully, and through all the preceding sessions leading up to backing for several weeks, any instability of rider or saddle during the backing process gives the wrong signals to the horse at a time when slight losses of balance are likely to occur during the early ridden sessions, when the actual flow of the session sets in the horses mind that leg on means walk forward,not stagger around , stop and get booted in the ribs, but a smooth flowing lesson that months of work have led up to this moment, it should be easily understood by the horse, a moment that defines the future.

i too saw that mustang being chased by mr, years ago and it shocked me to my core, after 48 hours of being chased it gave up and said`eat me`.

i can`t find any words to express how i feel about the people in the audience,but i know if i had been there nothing would have stopped me from intervening, i would have been compelled.

i think the rider is a blxxdy fool, should not have got on first time, and i don`t know what they were thinking of to get on again!

joinup as marketed is a myth, all horses join up with their handler or rider when forming a partnership.

a friend of mine rescued a cob foal, never had a horse before, its now three years old, and very well behaved, lunges beautifully, he saw monty on the h and c tv, and said `that bloke is full of shxte`the genuine impression of an innocent mind.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.
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At the Monty Roberts show I was at (Keysoe) he had loads of Dually, ropes etc, even hats, for sale! All rather expensive....
 
oh yes, how can mr say he doesnt like lunging when he spends most of his life chasing horses around a round pen?

i believe lunging is the most valuable tool in the box, lunging in large squares, down the long side it does`nt need to permanantly round, over poles and jumps, purely to voice commands, walk to canter, using it for prewarming up, evaluating a horse mood, freeing the back and letting out tension.
 
On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training. Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.
 
PapaverFollis said:
On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training. Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.
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Never a truer word said!
 
PapaverFollis said:
On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training. Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.
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Indeed.
 
I saw the video and was appalled. I am especially appalled about the fact that this method is fed to the masses as a way to gain horses' trust. No. Chasing a prey animal round and round until it helplessly submits, because there is no other relief as to come to the chaser, is NOT trust. Trust takes time, patience, empathy to the animals' needs and skill, not a roundpen and half an hour of your time. Besides that, it is even more utterly useless to do with a horse who's already been handled and has learned to listen to the human even in the most basic way.

Ugh. Not a fan of MR at all.
 
Sleipnir said:
I saw the video and was appalled. I am especially appalled about the fact that this method is fed to the masses as a way to gain horses' trust. No. Chasing a prey animal round and round until it helplessly submits, because there is no other relief as to come to the chaser, is NOT trust. Trust takes time, patience, empathy to the animals' needs and skill, not a roundpen and half an hour of your time. Besides that, it is even more utterly useless to do with a horse who's already been handled and has learned to listen to the human even in the most basic way.

Ugh. Not a fan of MR at all.
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This ^^ sums it up very well.
 
fburton said:
Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.


What do you think join-up is meant to do?
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Completely agree with this. I read The Man Who Listens to Horses years ago and liked the idea of join-up. I did not ever do it though as I was not sure I fully understood how. Until one day a thuggish 3 y/o I was loaning charged me in the field as I was putting a field lick out. I yelled, twirled a rope, and drove him away. He started circling me and I ended up in a sort of impromptu join-up. I kept driving him away until he dropped his head, licked and chewed etc. Then I finished taking the plastic off the lick while he remained a respectful distance away and then I invited him in, gave him a scratch and walked away. He followed me round - the full 'labrador' treatment. So I decided join-up was pretty cool and I did it with my angelic pony. But no sooner had I started driving him around the arena when I started feeling uncomfortable. He seemed to be saying "What?! What have I done wrong!!" And I did not know why I was driving him away or what I was trying to achieve. He ended up jumping out and that was that. (I had made a make shift round-pen but it was not very tall). It took ages to rebuild trust with him.

I also no longer believe in the 'be the alpha' stuff though I do agree that making them move their feet in whatever direction you want them to is useful - and being attentive to their efforts to move yours so you can make sure you don't let them. My little Welshie ALWAYS used to take a little side step to push my daughter off balance. So subtle that she never even noticed he was doing it. But if you let him, he'd end up dragging her all over the place within a few weeks of those nudges. Never giving him an INCH on the ground meant all his behaviour was much better. Not sure why moving their feet and not letting them move yours is so effective. I don't know what it "means" in terms of hierarchy/status etc.
 
I took my old cob to a clinic run by Intelligent Horsemanship associates around 14 years ago when I first bought him. It was incredibly useful at the time and if nothing else gave me confidence to start dealing with an angry, domineering Welsh-D with a somewhat chequered past. Nowadays I would not do the same thing again. My younger cob and my son's horse would be utterly confused and mortified if we attempted anything like a join up. I do sometimes send one of the herd away if they forget their manners when I'm in their field but they come in again quickly and without drama. Essentially this mimics what their 'glorious leader' (my lovely old cob) :) does when he feels his herd needs to get back in line. However, in my opinion the herd leadership thing is a myth too - it really does depend on the situation. My old cob is very dominant round food and if I'm in the field. In other circumstances one of the others will investigate something new first, or decide to lead everyone to the water trough, or start some mutual grooming etc. Everyone has a role in the team.
 
tristar said:
oh yes, how can mr say he doesnt like lunging when he spends most of his life chasing horses around a round pen?

i believe lunging is the most valuable tool in the box, lunging in large squares, down the long side it does`nt need to permanantly round, over poles and jumps, purely to voice commands, walk to canter, using it for prewarming up, evaluating a horse mood, freeing the back and letting out tension.
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Lunging is good if the horse isn't bracing its head and neck and shoulder to the outside which a lot of horses do when only a single rein is used. Using a round pen, or a makeshift circle, or two reins, means that the horse does a proper circle and is being worked correctly. (Dr. Deb Bennett explains)
 
The Mustang being chased for 48 hours was what made me realise that MR is nothing but a bully. Also on the boys that he fostered he would put them to work cleaning the toilets for hours if they missed behaved again just a bully,
I am surprised that the video stayed up as long as it did.
I do hope the poor mare gets to live her life in peace even if it means having her put down.
 
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