Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?

[JillA]

Herd leadership is one of those flexible things that depends on resources and how important they are to each individual (as with dogs - dominance is a movable feast). And it isn't about domineering, it is about quiet confident leadership - read Mark Rashid "Horses Never Lie, The Art of Passive Leadership. My old mare was never a bully, but all she had to do was look at a herd member, flick an ear and they would follow wherever she led. They WANT to be led, to have someone make decisions for them.
I have never really done any Join Up - I felt it was wrong with a horse who wanted to be with me to send it away for no good reason. If it refused to be caught, or crossed a similar boundary, that was another matter - sending away is a very strong aversive for herd animals whose safety lies in numbers. So for all Kelly Marks courses to major on it is a big mistake IMHO. Aversives can be powerful but need to be fairly rare and interspersed with reinforcing the good behaviour, which I don't see a lot of in MR's work - the balance is wrong.

 

[eahotson]

This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.

Quite agree.The best horseman I have personally met was a man called John Wilmot who broke horses for driving.He was amazing.Was very quiet and patient but also very effective.All the horses he handled also had lovely manners.

 

[eahotson]

I can see your point too. I'm wondering, though, whether this is the best way to go in pursuit of a stronger bond.


Well, different people have different understandings - that's for sure. Can they all be right? For example, researchers have shown that you can get what look like the same responses from a horse through purely mechanical means, using a remote-controlled car to move the horse around, and go on to claim that join-up can be explained entirely by behaviourist / conditioning processes. How much sense does it make then to describe the car as 'herd leader'?

There has been discussion about what individual elements of join-up signify - in particular, the 'licking and chewing' gesture that is usually seen at some point in a successful join-up. I have 'put my oar in' with regard to that matter in the past.

I am personally sceptical of both the 'herd leader' concept (especially when it gets mixed up with notions of dominance) and the idea that it can be usefully applied in our own interactions with horses. It seems an unnecessarily complicated idea and prone to misunderstanding - or, sometimes, understanding in any way that people see fit to justify behaving in the way they do towards horses, leading to misuse.

Incidentally, I came across the following clip in the last couple of days which raises questions about the 'herd leader' idea... https://youtu.be/zf_YHnob9dI?t=2m42s.

Well said.Very well said.

 

[eahotson]

Never a truer word said!

Agree.

 

[Clodagh]

The Mustang being chased for 48 hours was what made me realise that MR is nothing but a bully. Also on the boys that he fostered he would put them to work cleaning the toilets for hours if they missed behaved again just a bully,
I am surprised that the video stayed up as long as it did.
I do hope the poor mare gets to live her life in peace even if it means having her put down.

It was not letting the mustang drink that got me. Poor beggar.

 

[Clodagh]

I very much believe in the herd leader thing. My mare, who I worshipped, lived in a stable mixed herd of up to 8 individuals, mares and geldings. When she wanted a drink they formed an orderly queue behind her, and heaven forbid if one tried to push in. She would stand by the trough for ages after she had drunk, making them wait. When she moved away no 2 would come in, and so on. Some shared, some didn't.
I am alpha - when I open the stable door they step back, they do not rub on me or push me around, they hold their heads politely for bridle or headcollar. I expect manners, and enforce them. No beatings, just zero tolerance of bolshiness. The mare in charge never had to do anything more than put her ears back to express her displeasure.

 

[eahotson]

Herd leadership is one of those flexible things that depends on resources and how important they are to each individual (as with dogs - dominance is a movable feast). And it isn't about domineering, it is about quiet confident leadership - read Mark Rashid "Horses Never Lie, The Art of Passive Leadership. My old mare was never a bully, but all she had to do was look at a herd member, flick an ear and they would follow wherever she led. They WANT to be led, to have someone make decisions for them.
I have never really done any Join Up - I felt it was wrong with a horse who wanted to be with me to send it away for no good reason. If it refused to be caught, or crossed a similar boundary, that was another matter - sending away is a very strong aversive for herd animals whose safety lies in numbers. So for all Kelly Marks courses to major on it is a big mistake IMHO. Aversives can be powerful but need to be fairly rare and interspersed with reinforcing the good behaviour, which I don't see a lot of in MR's work - the balance is wrong.

I had a Highland pony who I watched send away a youngster who has transgressed.It was interesting to watch and the relationship between pony and youngster was good after that but the youngster had transgressed and it was definatively a disciplinary thing.It was never repeated to my knowledge.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I personally do not believe that the horse sees us as part of their herd. I do not believe 'Equus' is the language of the horse.

That said, I have no problem using anthropomorphic stories to explain what is going on. I say the pony is 'taking the mickey' out my daughter when he pretends to need a pee to get a break. What I really mean is he has learned through negative Sr that standing with his back legs out behind him and splayed leads to total cessation of pressure! But that does not trip off the tongue quite so easily as 'kick him on he's taking the...."

But I think MR goes a lot further - he seems to genuinely believe the stories around join-up/Equus etc so I lost interest when I decided that was all just nonsense.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I was disgusted when i viewed the programme about the mustang and have had no time for Monty since then.

 

[fburton]

I very much believe in the herd leader thing. My mare, who I worshipped, lived in a stable mixed herd of up to 8 individuals, mares and geldings. When she wanted a drink they formed an orderly queue behind her, and heaven forbid if one tried to push in. She would stand by the trough for ages after she had drunk, making them wait. When she moved away no 2 would come in, and so on. Some shared, some didn't.
I am alpha - when I open the stable door they step back, they do not rub on me or push me around, they hold their heads politely for bridle or headcollar. I expect manners, and enforce them. No beatings, just zero tolerance of bolshiness. The mare in charge never had to do anything more than put her ears back to express her displeasure.

Could it be that your horses have simply learnt manners from your consistent rejection of behaviours you consider rude and rewarding of behaviours you do want? That wouldn't need you to be viewed as another horse.

If this is the case, what does the idea of being 'herd leader' add?

 

[southerncomfort]

Personally I think 'Join Up' a giant con.

Any one of us could lunge or rope circle a horse a couple of times in each direction, unclip them and they'd follow us around. There is no magic to it, it isn't a short cut to a fantastic relationship with a horse. It's just plays on the fact that most horses will take the path of least resistance. Most horses are curious and will follow a human to see what he/she is up to.

It can actually be great fun to play with a horse at liberty and have it follow you over jumps etc and in my book this is far more likely to forge a good partnership than chasing it round a round pen throwing a rope at it.

'Join Up' is Monty Robert's USP so I guess he has to stick with it but I'm not sure it's actually taken training horses any further forward.

 

[stormox]

I think join-up is really silly. Maybe it originated from wild horses that were hard to catch, but most horses these days are too much 'in your face' and lack respect, pampered from foals, bargy and pushy. Join up is useless with these horses.

 

[tristar]

when i am lunging i allow horses to counterbend if they need to, that`s the whole point of humane training, listening to the horse`s needs, its a living creature with feelings!

in time my horses have come to bend sometimes almost overbend to the inside on 10mt lunge circles at times, i am not asking for this they are offering it, i accept it, i use lots of going straight not circles all the time, and lost of the time its done on 16 17 mt circles

if you are in a round pen you can`t go straight, or give the horse a break

i find horses love to feel you there, on the end of the lunge rein, they love the interaction.

i never use 2 reins, my oldest horse practices his canter pirouettes on the lunge at close quarters to whoever is lunging.

all our horse do medium trot on the lunge.

i have sadly, never heard of doctor whatshername orangehorse

 

[dogcalleddill]

This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

 

[fburton]

This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

Well, it certainly speaks volumes about horse breaking practices in another country and culture. What happened would be illegal here, and possibly illegal in the US too.

How does it relate to what we're discussing here? I guess we have to ask what would have happened if MR had said "Stop! You can't carry on like this!". What do you think? What should he have done or said?

 

[9tails]

This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

This isn't being endorsed by Monty Roberts AT ALL.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

if you are in a round pen you can`t go straight, or give the horse a break


i have sadly, never heard of doctor whatshername orangehorse

agree re the straight lines-unfortunately too few people know how to lunge well these days.

Dr Deb Bennet-US paleontologist by trade, good on equine anatomy. Has some very interesting things to say about horse maturation, rider and horse weight and some training aspects. for her other stuff (horsemanship) I was unconvinced and she's not known to be the easiest of people.

 

[JillA]

This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

It's the kind of thing Monty was a reaction to. He had his place, especially in the USA where breaking was very stressful and often downright cruel as I understand it. But his methods have run their course and been superseded by other more sensitive horsemen (and women??) and now he is more of a showman than a horseman IMO - time to retire Monty, and let the younger generation carry on

 

[Nasicus]

It can actually be great fun to play with a horse at liberty and have it follow you over jumps etc and in my book this is far more likely to forge a good partnership than chasing it round a round pen throwing a rope at it.

I love playing with my girls at liberty, the youngster has always loved it, but the older mare (who has had a hard life and trust issues) really started to come out of her shell and relax around me once we started the liberty stuff. I know if I tried to chase her around a pen and fling a rope at her, she'd be terrified.

 

[JFTDWS]

I think join-up is really silly. Maybe it originated from wild horses that were hard to catch, but most horses these days are too much 'in your face' and lack respect, pampered from foals, bargy and pushy. Join up is useless with these horses.

I wonder how far - even if you accept MR's concepts of equine psychology and herd dynamics to be true, which I don't - any of it is applicable to the majority of horses in this country. So many horses aren't even reared in mixed herds as youngsters and certainly don't live in them as adults. Given the impact this has on behaviour, I wonder how much, if any, herd-type behaviour is innate and how much is learned. And if they've never been in the situation to learn these things, they're certainly not going to apply that when a human tries to "tap in" to that behavioural dynamic.

 

[JillA]

I wonder how far - even if you accept MR's concepts of equine psychology and herd dynamics to be true, which I don't - any of it is applicable to the majority of horses in this country. So many horses aren't even reared in mixed herds as youngsters and certainly don't live in them as adults. Given the impact this has on behaviour, I wonder how much, if any, herd-type behaviour is innate and how much is learned. And if they've never been in the situation to learn these things, they're certainly not going to apply that when a human tries to "tap in" to that behavioural dynamic.

Except it is hard wired into them as prey animals to get security from the company of others of their own species - look at any equine living on its own. I have studied a little of dog ethology, but not horses but I can see there are conditions in which they used to live as a pack (or herd) which they haven't yet evolved far enough away from to discount. Their behaviour is descended from that which enabled the species to survive, and is still in there.

 

[JFTDWS]

Except it is hard wired into them as prey animals to get security from the company of others of their own species - look at any equine living on its own.

Well yes, I'm more talking about the MR concepts of responding to the alpha, humans mimicking horse body language and the equus stuff, rather than the very basic instincts which allow prey animals to survive. I don't think anybody is disputing that horses are herd animals by instinct.

 

[fburton]

If by "the alpha" we mean the most dominant in the group/herd, perhaps we should ask the question: what can the alpha do with body language - and, by extension, what can we do by mimicking it?

One obvious thing it can do is tell other horses to "Go away" or "Get out of my way". What other messages can alpha body language send? Maybe that is all.

 

[SEL]

The first time I ever saw my Appy she was in an arena with someone attempting to 'join up'. It wasn't going well. Even then I thought it was a bit odd you'd try this method on a hand reared horse - she has pretty odd interpretations of horse and human behaviour at the best of times.

She was clueless as to what the human wanted and never once started following them round. The approach of 'sling a rider on her back' was the next step. She bucked violently and went over backwards. Thankfully I wasn't there for that bit and thankfully for her they gave up then.

 

[prodigal2]

I hate the Alpha thing... I am not a horse and they know it, we smell different for a start, and they are not a human, what we do need to be a aware of is how they react, interact, and comprehend, and use that to build a framework for training. In fairness there is much in the american working tradition, english tradition and classical methodology that works around this and have many similar concepts across these very different styles of training horses.
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not bear up under any form of scrutiny. He has a great back story that makes a great narrative to hang a sales pitch around, but at the end of the day he is a sub par Ray Hunt/Dorrance brother with a great USP. If he was a great horseman he would have read the horse and changed the direction of the demonstration, but that would not have been great theatre.

 

[Clodagh]

Could it be that your horses have simply learnt manners from your consistent rejection of behaviours you consider rude and rewarding of behaviours you do want? That wouldn't need you to be viewed as another horse.

If this is the case, what does the idea of being 'herd leader' add?

Quite possibly, although I have been known to turn round and boot them, like a horse would, I have never mastered putting my ears back. working on it.
I suppose I would call myself herd leader, but I don't speak fluent 'horse', I just get the larger hints from them. I could just call myself their master, it would make no difference.

 

[ycbm]

If by "the alpha" we mean the most dominant in the group/herd, perhaps we should ask the question: what can the alpha do with body language - and, by extension, what can we do by mimicking it?

One obvious thing it can do is tell other horses to "Go away" or "Get out of my way". What other messages can alpha body language send? Maybe that is all.

Follow me, I know best. And if you don't follow me I'll drive you in front of me. My Alpha is a gelding. When he comes in, all come in. When he goes out, all go out. Sometimes the others try and drag him out when he wants to be in , but he won't go and they won't go without him. Humans use this one all the time.

'This is not safe, I'm out of here'. If the Alpha is frightened by something, everyone is frightened by it. Any of the other three can be frightened by themselves, but not the Alpha. Humans inadvertently use this one all the time, to ill effect. Nervous handlers/riders make nervous horses.

I'll think of more if you give me enough time

 

[ycbm]

I have never mastered putting my ears back. working on it.

...

 

[Rowreach]

In fairness there is much in the american working tradition, english tradition and classical methodology that works around this and have many similar concepts across these very different styles of training horses.
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not bear up under any form of scrutiny. He has a great back story that makes a great narrative to hang a sales pitch around, but at the end of the day he is a sub par Ray Hunt/Dorrance brother with a great USP. If he was a great horseman he would have read the horse and changed the direction of the demonstration, but that would not have been great theatre.

Spot on.

 

[9tails]

...
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward...

It's not going to do a thing for his pockets if he turns round now and says that join up is claptrap that's for sure. I feel that horsemanship is being broken down into painting by numbers.