Move on or review and change?

HufflyPuffly

HufflyPuffly

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Thought I would try and open a discussion on something I've seen a fair bit recently on social media. When a result/ judge does not go your way what do you do?

To expand, it is dressage championship season and the usual 3 judge score discrepancy discussion is in full swing, if you get a lower score than you expect do you move on and try not to think anymore than the judge has it wrong, or do you analyze what they have seen and judged and try to work on those areas?

I'm pondering this as for me I always take a good look at the test sheet, and if possible look at the video or at least really think about the test and where bobbles/ tension/ mistakes happened. I generally can always agree with the judge even if another judge might have given a different mark, the actual comment and reasons are generally 100% spot on.

I have seen more than one person be encouraged to ignore the judge as they normally score much better and so this judge must be wrong. Even though actually the accompanying video (or if I've watched the test) you can kind of see where the judge might be coming from, (in an overall way as asides from the score I have no idea what the judge has actually marked and said!), and maybe listening to that judge might make them even better if they were to take the comments on board?

I'm a newcomer to the sport and would never think I know better than the judge (I've had odd things on my sheets and things I'm not sure are correct, but then judges are human and it is only generally been a mark or two a test not the whole thing). I've just found it odd that people are being encourage to almost be blinkered to their training/ expectations and that others must be wrong as they know they are on the right track.

Obviously a bit of a thick skin is needed (if anyone reads my sheets they'd probably say give up and take up tiddlywinks :lol:) and some moving on and not dwelling is needed, but really the competitions are for feedback on your training and in my mind even the negative can have a positive impact on the training at home.

So does anyone want to expand on my Monday ramblings?
 
Yes it's interesting isn't it... personally my response would differ on each horse.

On Millie - well, she's a straightforward kind of ride these days, I can rely on her to turn up and do her job. I don't know more than the judges we meet now (:p) and therefore their opinion is important to me as a competitor. If the judge says we didn't have enough impulsion, then we probably didn't. If they say the changes were wrong, they were!
Recently the judge said Millie looked tight... this is something I went away and dwelled on because to me she had felt super supple and soft - in the past I've struggled to get her soft in her back at a show so I was really REALLY puzzled... and then twigged she had got short in the neck, rather than tight in the back - so the judge wasn't wrong and nor was I, we were just at cross purposes.

Would I change everything based on one comment.... no - I have good structured training, I believe we are on the right path, a one-off comment isn't going to make me change course because when do you stop reacting? You could get totally distracted from the big picture. But if the same comment came up time & again, then you know your big picture needs changing ;)

On Kira, my approach would be different. Because I know how she can go, and I know that her way of going at shows is not representative of her training. If I can get 50% of what I get at home, then I've done well at a show. It's not relevant to the judge that her brain is a mess, they have to comment on what they see and I accept that - it's a competition on the day after all.
But I glance down the comments, quickly decide if I agree or not and then put it to one side and reflect on the private elements of our performance. Did she work in well? Did she stay on my aids in the test? Did she let me help her? Was she breathing? did she feel relaxed? Kira is on a longer and more complicated journey than Millie, so while the day-to-day test sheets are of some incidental interest, the long-term building of confidence is what I pay attention to.
There are very few comments that I would get on one of Kira's sheets that would make me change anything, because I know I have a bigger challenge than just getting a test right, I have to get her BRAIN right and then the tests will come easily... being told this weekend that she needed more engagement doesn't actually help or mean a great deal - I can't add that until she is confident enough in the arena.
 
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We've been out twice recently, with the spotty and his rider. I told her to ignore the comments/marks on the first sheet, as I thought they were very unfair, not at all representative of the way the horse went, and the rider rode. I've since discovered that the venue is well known locally for marking its liveries high, and outsiders low -and that the judge was the yard manager. Written that one off as a useful outing for a new horse/rider combo.

Yesterday, he was hard marked, but the judges comments were fair, and useful, so she can take away some useful feedback from that outing.

I feel for people who compete alone, and don't have eyes on the ground to help them analyse performance. Spottys rider was very despondent after the first test, until I talked her through why I thought it was unfairly marked. She wasn't thrilled yesterday, but I think she'll go through the test sheet, and watch the video, and be able to take away some useful feedback from it.
 
Auslander said:
I've since discovered that the venue is well known locally for marking its liveries high, and outsiders low -and that the judge was the yard manager. Written that one off as a useful outing for a new horse/rider combo.
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yes, I think it's pretty important to know who is judging you before deciding what value to put to any particularly outstanding comments ;)

I definitely put more weight in the comments we get from list 1s these days, these are the people I want to be judged by more frequently - by virtue of the tests I want to ride!! :p

Sometimes you need a bit of doublethink going on - one one hand, what the judge sees and comments on is valid on the day - it's of no interest to them how far you might have come or whatever personal battles you've conquered, the only thing that matters is whether you performed the requirements of the test well or not.
On the other hand, acknowledging that kind of personal stuff is deeply important for building your own confidence and competition experience.
 
Definitely agree it's important to know who is judging, I think unaff you can be very correct in throwing sheets away :o!

I think I meant more at looking at what the judge has marked on and said and reacting to it rather than just ignoring it. Especially as people move up levels and then seem surprised when maybe the marks don't follow, as when that judge suggested they where not engaged or supple or connected or really through enough it wasn't really worked on and then it comes back to bite you later on.

I have a lot of 'no ***** sherlock' moments with Topaz and judges commenting on suppleness or tension when it's pogo'ing around :lol:, so maybe if I had a more consistent high scorer my attitude might be different? For me it's important to really see the weaknesses and then work on them, rather than hope they just go away :D.
 
Personally, for myself and the Chillston, it completely depends on the day! If we've had a bad test where for some reason we've completely mucked up (like the 57% we had a couple of months ago at Novice:eek:) then I tend to completely discount it. The judges comments are usually representative of the test we've performed, but I know that that day was a write off and nothing like we can do. So on those days I'd put it behind us and ignore. However, on a day when a test has gone fine I will always pay attention to the judge's comments, even if I feel I've been marked harshly. A lot of the time I have no video of my tests so have to go by my memory (which can be hazy due to nerves!) and the comments we receive.

I think sometimes you can disregard a sheet, but 99% of the time there's something to gain by having a good read.
 
I guess it depends on what went down on the day! It helps if you have an instructor that you can discuss the sheet with.
 
AlexHyde said:
so maybe if I had a more consistent high scorer my attitude might be different?
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if you had a consistent high scorer, then it's a different proposition though - the comments aren't going to be those 'not enough engagement' or 'contact inconsistent' or whatever... cos presumably the consistent high scorers have those bits nailed :p
Dunno, never been one! :lol:

I think it's foolhardy to ignore the comments full stop, assuming it's not a stupid competition like the one Aus mentioned where it's rigged against outsiders :mad: if the judge is trained and knowledgeable then even though some elements of dressage are a bit subjective, it's worth noting because you might well get one of those subjective opinions at a big show ;)

I had an interesting chat with my trainer about Millie's area festival sheets last week. One judge said they wanted to see more air time in her paces - I thought to myself on the day 'pah, what do they know, she's 20 with 4 bust legs so there's no way I'm faffing about teaching her to be more prancey'.
He said that it was probably not saying she didn't have enough flash in her paces, more that she looked like she'd be capable of getting that bit of suspension... no one but me knew that she had such a calamitous medical history, so it was actually a bit of a compliment. Food for thought (she is still going to be keeping her energy efficient safe basic trot ;) )
 
I think that's why I found the idea to just ignore completely as a missed opportunity, it might be a surprise but then the judge might have a valid point you could take away with you.
 
I look at where the marks were lower and higher and see if there is a pattern , if there is - am I aware of it and working on it, or not, is it normal or not, is this a demonstration of success at fixing a particular issue. Looking at it this way has helped as sometimes a different way of saying the same issue can really help it click.

I try to not take things personally as I judge and write for a lot of judges and it has never been a personal thing, you are a partnership on a conveyor belt at most competitions (exceptions withstanding) which is how it should be, judging say as you see.

Honestly I am rarely surprised by my sheet but then I judge too so I have that in my head when I reflect.

The only time I disregard a sheet is if it just plain went tits up! And that is me ignoring my cock up, not the judge.

Even a crap judge is seeing something so I always have a read.
 
At this stage of my training, I tend to take the not-so-good scores on the chin and will just feel satisfied that at least B has had a positive experience.

I've not yet had any comments on my sheets that I would deem negative - I always get the same comments at the end (correct paces, needs to be more through & in self carriage, needs more impulsion etc), so at least the judging is very consistent in that respect. My % tend to range between 59-64%, which I don't think is terribly huge for us as a combination.

Twice now I've ridden a test that felt great but the judging wasn't as I was hoping for. I'm not very sensitive about this as I have an unconventional dressage horse and I ride like a potato, but I can see how some would get upset by this if you get very consistent scores usually.

I might feel differently about it if we were more established and were out much more regularly. However, if I did at any time feel that my score was particularly low I might appeal it.

But as I say, at the stage B & I are at and the level we are competing, I accept what the judge has given us and will move on.

Ask me again in a few years!
 
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For me, every judge has a different opinion and some will be more keen on certain things (or so I seem to have noticed), equally if they are not along the centreline its a different view so again they'll see diff things? I also think having written for judges that aren't all seeing and can only interpt what they can actually see?

Equally if the scores are roughly similar with roughly the same comments (or common thread) then I'd take it on the chin and say they were right and I need to up my game. If out of three judges one seemed to be wildly different I'd query it and file it in the not so sure about what you wrote pile. I never get 90%, I'm not charlotte so any feedback can be helpful usually as long as you can suck it up. There has been times at certain venues I've laughed and hoyed the sheet in the poo bin, I've also laughed and wondered how I got so much. Soooo very difficult to mark without training as judge methinks and if I wonder how a judge scores things (if odd) I write for them to try and understand what they see, it helps me and the sport (must say I have been non the wiser for this effort sometimes). Again if I have three sheets have same comments and diff scores then its filed in the 'ponder' section, important bit is that they reflect each other, its when they don't that puzzles me!
 
I think it depends on the horse and the judge. I've had test that have scored better than I thought and test that have scored lower but never anything wildly out either way. Even within my friends, we know which type of horses some judges prefer on the local UA circuit. However, I think if people believe they know better than the judge, then why bother to enter.

The judge can only mark the test in front of them and doesn't know how experienced/old the horse is or how difficult a week you've had getting to the competition.

Also what the judge sees and what you feel from the horse aren't always the same thing.
 
Interesting posts thank you all :).

I think there will always be more discrepancies unaff than BD, so I get that you might have more case of actually that judge is talking nonsense :o.

Glad to see most will consider the sheet and review, before deciding how relevant it is for them.
 
I normally take my sheets quite seriously, bring them in to lessons and recognise where they're coming from.
My most recent test was not great and I felt the marks were reasonable for the moves, throughout the test I could see why some things got 4s and others got 7s! The score was a not great, but I've had worse, 56.5% at Novice including an error of course. The judge's final comment was "does not have the balance or engagement to compete at this level." Now I feel that this kind of comment warrants a score below 50 not one halfway between sufficient and satisfactory! So guess what I did...
I disregarded that sheet, my instructor and I ranted about bloody unaffiliated judges and then I decided my next test will be an elementary one because everything is easier when you've got a curb rein
 
I disregard comments I deem to be incorrect - I had occasional comments about my pony not having the "paces" to score highly, or needing to show more "sparkle" or, worse, be "flashier". He is what he is. Especially if the horses which score highly are those which are wildly overbent and incorrect, but with flicky warmblood paces, I tend to think the judge is working on a different definition of dressage to me. This is massively more common unaffiliated in my experience.

I also once had a comment about not being ready to compete at this level. It was the last test I rode because I'm not paying to have people make comments like that - both my trainers at the time were most unimpressed as the pony isn't flashy, but is very capable of correctness at the level he was working at, and I had a video of the test which backed that up. Dressage judging does have an unfortunate undercurrent of individuals who reward genetics over training and don't think ponies should be doing it. They're definitely the minority, but they do exist.
 
abbijay said:
I normally take my sheets quite seriously, bring them in to lessons and recognise where they're coming from.
My most recent test was not great and I felt the marks were reasonable for the moves, throughout the test I could see why some things got 4s and others got 7s! The score was a not great, but I've had worse, 56.5% at Novice including an error of course. The judge's final comment was "does not have the balance or engagement to compete at this level." Now I feel that this kind of comment warrants a score below 50 not one halfway between sufficient and satisfactory! So guess what I did...
I disregarded that sheet, my instructor and I ranted about bloody unaffiliated judges and then I decided my next test will be an elementary one because everything is easier when you've got a curb rein
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HA! Love it. THAT is when to disregard :)
 
JFTD said:
I disregard comments I deem to be incorrect - I had occasional comments about my pony not having the "paces" to score highly, or needing to show more "sparkle" or, worse, be "flashier". He is what he is. Especially if the horses which score highly are those which are wildly overbent and incorrect, but with flicky warmblood paces, I tend to think the judge is working on a different definition of dressage to me. This is massively more common unaffiliated in my experience.
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I have a flicky Warmblood. I think he gets marked a little harshly though because he looks the part, they expect him to be amazing, but he isn't. He hates it. He always gets his best mark for the first centre line !!
 
Fig usually splits the judges at champs, he's that kind of horse. There's a few judges who quite simply don't like him (or my riding), and they don't score us well.

I still read their comments but I don't dwell on the score. If it adds up right, just pick a few points that DO apply and then continue your training.

IE no amount of work will persuade judges to give him a 10 for his medium trot. But we can definitely work on staying softer over the back and being more accurate in our work.
 
Like others have said, I will pick and choose a little but in general I go carefully through my sheets, discuss with my instructor and make sure we're on the right track. Both my horses are PREs and some judges tend to understand them more than others - in general I'd rather be judged by a list 1 judge than a list 5 as they tend to be able to see beyond the breed's movement and reward a correct way of going (this was quite stark at my Area Festival in May, but that's another story!). I general the comments are usually things we're already working on, such as 'more engagement', more ground cover in mediums (for Pocholo), more suppleness (for Indio). It's good to check the comments and make sure we're working on the right things and spot any specific movements that we've scored low on.

I don't understand why you'd pay money to be judged and then disregard the comments? To me it's one of the best things abou dressage, despite how frustrating it can be!!

Auslander- just spotted your location. Was that venue in West Berkshire by any chance?
 
It depends on the test i think. If i felt my horse went well, tried hard and the judge gave me a crap mark yes i would feel disappointed. Any comments that i feel i need to work on i tell my instructor and we will go through them in our lessons. I know some judges don't like him he's fairly plain and i, unfortunately i don't sit like Charlotte but on a good day you'd struggle to find a more accurate and obedient horse on a bad day, well the judge can find sand in their tea from his 'freestyle' moments. I recently went to an area festival and did the novice and elementary. His elementary sheets were pretty much bob on all the judges agreed the marks were fairly similar and i was pleased. The novice test was probably one of the best novices hes done in a while. 2 judges agreed had him on a very good mark the last had constantly short in the neck written right throughout the sheet. He is a horse that does get tense but he doesn't shorten his neck and come back at you, hes more likely to set his neck and lean onto your hands but he is part new forest, but looks like a warmblood, and has a short stocky neck almost like a stallion. And that judge gave me 61%. There wasn't anything else on the sheet that was constructive that i could take away and work on, and as hes 13 his neck isn't going to get any longer so needless to say that sheet went in the bin. However some of the scores at that particular area festival were shocking one prelim got 49% 57% and 63%. I know the judges all get a different viewpoint but 14%? But i know BD have been made aware of it.
 
Ooo, interesting question, and I'm probably going to give a controversial answer.....:p
I should say that my view is coloured by having competed a large amount of green horses at the basic levels and never having really got the pleasure of producing one up through the levels, and I think at medium plus dressage judging is somewhat a different experience....that being said....

One of the things I really dislike about dressage judging is that I think it consistently fails to reward what I see as the main point of dressage - training. I know that there is a certain type of youngster that I can back, do 4 weeks of work with and take out to a prelim test and get a high 60s mark. There are other horses that I need to do a year's worth of work with and have reasonably competent at elementary level to get the same mark at prelim. The first type of horse doesn't need to be flashy or a warmblood, it needs to have a natural cadence to its trot and a generally 'fluid' way of moving. The judge sees active, supple movement and that's what they reward, as per the directives. They don't know that I am on top, thoroughly uncomfortable, feeling like I'm steering a precariously balanced board around while trying to hold up the brick in place of its head. Why? Because they can't really see those things in a prelim test - the loose back and skippy legs meanwhile are easy to see.

So do I take note of all comments? Yes, I think I do, but the importance I place on them is heavily tinted by my knowledge of the horse.

As much as I think a Judge's eye is very useful in progressing in your training, I do think that there is considerable room for improvement in the way dressage tests are judged to make competition closes to what I consider the true principles of dressage.
 
JFTD said:
I disregard comments I deem to be incorrect - I had occasional comments about my pony not having the "paces" to score highly, or needing to show more "sparkle" or, worse, be "flashier". He is what he is. Especially if the horses which score highly are those which are wildly overbent and incorrect, but with flicky warmblood paces, I tend to think the judge is working on a different definition of dressage to me. This is massively more common unaffiliated in my experience.

Ive had the exact same comments about my gypsy cob and like you I know that he just isnt that type of pony. If I try to spark him up we lose accuracy and he gets on his forehand. I ignore those comments but I listen to everything else and remember to listen to the positive comments too
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JFTD said:
I disregard comments I deem to be incorrect - I had occasional comments about my pony not having the "paces" to score highly, or needing to show more "sparkle" or, worse, be "flashier". He is what he is. Especially if the horses which score highly are those which are wildly overbent and incorrect, but with flicky warmblood paces, I tend to think the judge is working on a different definition of dressage to me. This is massively more common unaffiliated in my experience.

I used to get this all the time a few years ago when I rode small downhill appaloosa. He was always obedient, accurate and correct, but was never going to have big flashy paces. It drove me mad and in the end I stopped competing him.

I now have a quality horse with great paces,but live in a relatively small "pond"so often get the same judges time and time again. There is one who always marks me 10 less than whoever the co judge is, I am starting to take it personally as we do know each other slightly through a friend as she has always been very unfriendly towards me. I am the only person she does this with but just ignore her sheets.

My trainer who is often competing at the same shows always looks at my sheets and usually agrees to an extent with the comments, some she doesn't. I always go with her thoughts as she has taken 4 very mediocre horses to Grand Prix in her career and has a much greater knowledge than many of the judges, some of whom have had very little competition experience or what they did have was many years ago. She always says that prelim to an extent is more of a showing class and not until you get to elementary and above then are horses marked properly on their training.
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silv said:
My trainer who is often competing at the same shows always looks at my sheets and usually agrees to an extent with the comments, some she doesn't. I always go with her thoughts as she has taken 4 very mediocre horses to Grand Prix in her career and has a much greater knowledge than many of the judges, some of whom have had very little competition experience or what they did have was many years ago. She always says that prelim to an extent is more of a showing class and not until you get to elementary and above then are horses marked properly on their training.
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That's a pretty astute remark from your trainer
 
DabDab said:
That's a pretty astute remark from your trainer
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yes, agreed.

When reading the AM tests that double up as FEI junior tests (85, 92 and 96) I was surprised - and encouraged, on a not-for-dressage horse - to see that the paces (and impulsion!) collectives carry a coefficient of 1, rather than the 2 that is seen in most other tests.

The submission and rider collectives keep the double coefficient and there are some others dropped in at specific movements.
Some of the more recent BD advanced mediums are the same.
 
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Glad I've managed an interesting discussion :lol: and the showing remarks about Prelim is clearly the reason for Skylla's poor efforts do far ;), show horse she is not :lol:.

I think a lot can be learned from how listed judges comment and mark, by writing for them or attending judge training. I've found that sometimes what is interpreted by what they've written is not always quite what they meant.

I have a marmite horse who doesn't have warmblood flashy paces either, she doesn't have the action in her trot naturally to extend for a 10, she has managed a medium for a 9 :eek3:, so sometimes they can surprise you.

Teaching a horse cadence and to move with a relaxed and swinging back can be done, Topaz has shown me that. She is built with short thick legs for her height, added her hackney knee action she shouldn't be able to get those extensions, but teaching her how to push off from behind and move her shoulder means we are (glacially) slowly getting that penny to drop and our scores are going up. If I had ignored the judges comment of needs more ground cover, suppleness over the back, expression, etc then I would now be missing out on my 7's (and that one elusive 9 :lol:). As I could say she's not built for it, she's not a warmblood, it's not applicable for her so end of discussion. It's similar to a horse built downhill (have one of those too :o but thankfully showing was her bag) and it is possible to train them to move uphill, it is much harder than one naturally built uphill, but possible.

The main reason warmbloods do well in my opinion is that most of the difficult stuff to teach is naturally there, uphill, cadence, loose swinging paces, you've just got temperament left and the ability to train them.

I hope the above doesn't come off 'preachy' or look how well we've done (we don't look up our BD record :lol:) but if we can improve anyone can, it's just harder work with a not bred for the job horse :), though I am definitely more aware of why people are saying disregard those sheets, so thank you all for sharing your stories :).
 
Absolutely agree Alex, but I do think that often when people are saying 'just ignore the comment' or similar, it is because the comments don't really relate to their horse that well. I think (cleverly linking back to other discussion thread here :p), that it is far more common for people to take the comments to heart and feel like their not good enough to progress beyond prelim/novice, so spend hours and hours going round in circles trying to give their horse more cadence. When really they could be moving onto harder movements and developing cadence through higher level training.

I personally don't think that the higher marks at prelim/novice should be reserved for horses with a more advanced way of going (whether natural or trained). If expectations of a novice horse are exceeded then they should just top out on the scores, without an ordinary, well executed test having to score lower.

Just for fun - if you took Topaz into a prelim or novice test what do you think she would score?
 
I agree there can be a lack of confidence to move up sometimes and this can stifle improvement in general. There was another great discussion started by MP about using the lateral work, and how at the lower levels people seem to see it as a dressage goal to ride them rather than use them to improve their horse.

I did actually do a prelim level test last year but out eventing and on grass, we did not score well :lol::o... I would expect her to get a decent score in a BD setting, though she doesn't suit simple tests (too much time for monsters to get her), but my baseline for a decent score is 65%+ so not as high as others. Also though, I've not found this push in the lower levels in the comps and area I am, to reward incorrect flashiness over obedient, relaxed and correct.
 
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