Muscle Biopsy - Muscle breakdown - PSSM

[Hormonal Filly]

Morning all,

My gelding hasn't been quite right for over a year now. Without going into it, hes had over £10,000 spent on him in lameness examinations, x-rays, hind nerves cut, steriods in most of his hind joints but we're no better off. We nerve blocked one hind, he went lame on the other one.

He basically finds canter really difficult, to the point sometimes he almost can't do it.

I've had a very good second opinion vet out, who was a bit miffed. He visited on the weekend to nerve block his SI area, he was slightly better but just didn't quite feel right still. I asked the vet to test his blood as noticed after exercise he was rolling, he'd paw the ground and his bum had significant muscle loss to the point he looks like a 2yr old. He was also weeing a few times after exercise. He also had a episode of his full body quivering during box rest in November but my other vet wasn't interested. He was very nervy, to the point he'd come in and freak out at his own haynet tied up. My other geldings bloods were also abnormal last year when we tested them and they were on the same forage and grazing.

We got his blood results back, showing significant muscle break down was how the vet described it. I've already started feeding Vitamin E (thank you @SEL) and the vets posting me something else to help. The vets coming back next week to take a sample for a muscle biopsy to be sent to a lab and is testing it for PSSM as well.

I mentioned his grazing, he said it is possible its related. I've since found out the YO spreads human faeces onto the field he cuts for haylage every year although I've fed my own hay for a month now but that can't be good for them?! He was being fed that haylage for months.

Hes on quite a lot of grazing at the moment with a field full of clover, the vet said he can stay on that grazing but monitor him as currently he isn't over weight but make sure he does some work everyday with at least 10 minutes warm up each time.

Thank you for reading my essay!

 

[holeymoley]

I mentioned his grazing, he said it is possible its related. I've since found out the YO spreads human faeces onto the field he cuts for haylage every year although I've fed my own hay for a month now but that can't be good for them?! He was being fed that haylage for months.

Hes on quite a lot of grazing at the moment with a field full of clover, the vet said he can stay on that grazing but monitor him as currently he isn't over weight but make sure he does some work everyday with at least 10 minutes warm up each time.

Thank you for reading my essay!

Good grief ? I have no idea about the human faeces spreading but I’m afraid that would be a no for me. Surely there’s certain toxins that form in that?

Be very careful with the clover. I’m no expert in pssm- other members on here are fab, but what you’re describing sounds like it could be pssm. I believe they should have a diet very similar to laminitics and clover is definitely a no for them.

 

[be positive]

Interesting reading on the possibility of toxins as well as salmonella and e coli.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2020/02/04/sewage-sludge-landspreading-environment-agency-report/

That is assuming he is using treated waste and not just emptying septic tanks onto it.

 

[shortstuff99]

Is spreading human faeces legal?

ETA raw human waste, I know you can buy treated waste cakes from waste water works for fertiliser which is different as will be treated.

 

[holeymoley]

Is spreading human faeces legal?

ETA raw human waste, I know you can buy treated waste cakes from waste water works for fertiliser which is different as will be treated.

I would imagine Sepa/ep Uk etc would have something to say about it!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is spreading human faeces legal?

ETA raw human waste, I know you can buy treated waste cakes from waste water works for fertiliser which is different as will be treated.

I'm told it is illegal and its been reported, nothing gets done. Very dodgy.

 

[TPO]

Spreading raw sewage is highly illegal.

If its treated then ultimately its just phosphorous iirc.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Spreading raw sewage is highly illegal.

That is assuming he is using treated waste and not just emptying septic tanks onto it.

It is just raw sewage from the tank next to the cottages he rents out. No chemicals added, straight onto the field.

 

[shortstuff99]

It is just raw sewage from the tank next to the cottages he rents out. No chemicals added, straight onto the field.

Have you reported to the environment agency? They might do more about it.

 

[holeymoley]

It is just raw sewage from the tank next to the cottages he rents out. No chemicals added, straight onto the field.

Crikey.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Have you reported to the environment agency? They might do more about it.

Yes, not me personally but I know someone who has multiple times. Nothing has ever been done about it.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Human faeces?

On a more PSSM related note, my pony was diagnosed type 1 back in January after a horrific tie-up (CK levels were well over 40,000, AST off the scale), he had never shown any signs previously so came as a huge shock.

Mine copes well on my poor grazing, I know of others who can't have any grass at all however. I would be very cautious of any clover.

In addition to the natural vitamin e, mine is also on magnesium oxide and salt (plus a few other potions) and this has really helped him. Also, I soak his hay for at least 1-2 hours, rinsing off really well after (always have done as he's a very good doer anyway), and replace any lost goodness with the powdered equimins advance complete which was recommended on here by a few, and has had the pleasant side effect of completely transforming his feet (he's barefoot).

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Mine copes well on my poor grazing, I know of others who can't have any grass at all however. I would be very cautious of any clover.

In addition to the natural vitamin e, mine is also on magnesium oxide and salt (plus a few other potions) and this has really helped him. Also, I soak his hay for at least 1-2 hours, rinsing off really well after (always have done as he's a very good doer anyway), and replace any lost goodness with the powdered equimins advance complete which was recommended on here by a few, and has had the pleasant side effect of completely transforming his feet (he's barefoot).

Thank you for replying TSC. I'll look into that. I'm surprised my vet said to leave him on the good grazing when the more I read the more I'm told they need restricted grazing?! I gave him 10ml of natural Vitamin E (from Equimins) for the last 2 days and today his muscles seem softer to touch. He may of 'tied-up' when he was on box rest between October to January, he kept quivering and trying to wee but my previous vet said it was stress and to leave it. Even though he seemed very calm, just like he hurt.

@ycbm any thoughts, you're very knowledgeable on this too

 

[PapaverFollis]

The quivering and taking the weeing stance was probably tying up. It can present like that.

Mine does fine on grass, the less the better but it's not a huge no as it is for some... they do need turnout as much as possible, if not the actual grass. I found a track really benificial. Maximises movement, limits grass a bit.

Warmth is key for mine. She's rugged up to be hot and doesn't got naked under about 13-15 degrees, wind and rain dependent. Which means she lives in her rugs most of the time up here!

Vitamin E and alcar. Plus she gets the basic Equivita supplement but that's quite new so we're seeing how it goes. Magnesium didn't have much effect for her. Think there's enough in the supplement. Salt, but thats normal for all mine. She gets an extra electrolyte when working more.

Movement movement movement. When I had limited turnout I was walking her 3 times a day for 10 plus minutes. Plus her work on too of that. Fortunately I have more turnout now!

That's if it is PSSM and not some crazy poisoning from the hay field being spread with sewage!? Jeez. That's awful!

Sorry Im rambling and probably haven't helped at all!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Mine does fine on grass, the less the better but it's not a huge no as it is for some... they do need turnout as much as possible, if not the actual grass. I found a track really benificial. Maximises movement, limits grass a bit.

Warmth is key for mine. She's rugged up to be hot and doesn't got naked under about 13-15 degrees, wind and rain dependent. Which means she lives in her rugs most of the time up here!

Vitamin E and alcar. Plus she gets the basic Equivita supplement but that's quite new so we're seeing how it goes. Magnesium didn't have much effect for her. Think there's enough in the supplement. Salt, but thats normal for all mine. She gets an extra electrolyte when working more.

Movement movement movement. When I had limited turnout I was walking her 3 times a day for 10 plus minutes. Plus her work on too of that. Fortunately I have more turnout now!

Very helpful, thank you! He does get cold and have always thought hes a wimp although I've kept him rugged a bit heavier the last couple of days (150g) as usually he'd of been naked or in a lightweight and its below 10.

He is a gannet so will monitor the grazing side of things.. How much Vit E do you feed? I think hes been having about 10,000iu a day, is that about right?

The more I read about PSSM 2 he just hits the nail on the head, everything relates to him.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you for replying TSC. I'll look into that. I'm surprised my vet said to leave him on the good grazing when the more I read the more I'm told they need restricted grazing?! I gave him 10ml of natural Vitamin E (from Equimins) for the last 2 days and today his muscles seem softer to touch. He may of 'tied-up' when he was on box rest between October to January, he kept quivering and trying to wee but my previous vet said it was stress and to leave it. Even though he seemed very calm, just like he hurt.

@ycbm any thoughts, you're very knowledgeable on this too

Sounds spot on to me and you have the leaky muscle enzymes in the blood to suggest it. Mine did fine on rough hill grass but had to have vitamin e and alcar. He was 'ok' with high oil (as in, he would move instead of rooting to the spot ) but when switched to alcar his bum muscles deflated like a popped balloon full of water. Then he rebuilt proper muscle over time. He never stopped spooking, though he got a lot better, but in the end I sold him because I couldn't cope with it.

The last I heard he was doing well on the same regime as I had him on.

.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Mine gets 6000IU natural vitamin E. Started at 10,000 but reduced while keeping an eye on her and settled at 6000.

I should always add as a priviso to my post I havent had her tested so everything I say could be a nonsense. But she has tied up 3 times and the regime for PSSM improves the softness of her muscles and the very subtle PSSM indicators she has between tie ups so I stick with it. All tie ups so far associated with being very cold in the previous couple of days followed by either explosive episodes without a proper warm up or just a far too long, too hard workout. So cold followed by excessive muscle fatigue.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Thank you for replying TSC. I'll look into that. I'm surprised my vet said to leave him on the good grazing when the more I read the more I'm told they need restricted grazing?! I gave him 10ml of natural Vitamin E (from Equimins) for the last 2 days and today his muscles seem softer to touch. He may of 'tied-up' when he was on box rest between October to January, he kept quivering and trying to wee but my previous vet said it was stress and to leave it. Even though he seemed very calm, just like he hurt.

@ycbm any thoughts, you're very knowledgeable on this too

I'm surprised too as I am sure if I put mine on good grazing we would have problems, although maybe mostly in the waist department!

When mine tied up, he had been on box rest, and was on a blue chip balancer which I now know to be completely unsuitable (hindsight is a wonderful thing). It was honestly the worst two weeks being in limbo (he tied up on the 23rd December, not ideal timing!), when he was diagnosed, it was almost a relief. I hasten to add everything I have done has been from advice on here, my own research or from the Facebook groups as the advice my vets gave me was completely off, and in fact I am very lucky it didn't cause him more damage as I was advised to keep him on strict box rest throughout, not even to walk to the tie ring.

Movement is the most important thing for mine, TBH I haven't found myself having to overrug him too much, probably mostly 100g more than I usually would has been fine. He is now on a very strict exercise programme, which I built up to over 3 months. 6 days a week without fail he is worked, either schooling, hacking, lunging/long-reining and plenty of pole work. We've been jumping again too (bit of a taboo subject during lockdown I know), and I have found the harder work I do with him now, the better he is. We are regularly cantering a good few miles out hacking, lots of canter in the school too. He never lost his canter but now he's been on all of this, I can really feel an improvement - I just never knew there was anything wrong before.

Adding oil in the form of Copra was also a big deal, he has a lot more stamina now.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thank you all. Very helpful much appreciated. @TheSpottyCobby thats interesting, as mine was at worst when on box rest and being fed tons of haylage ad-lib to keep him occupied, even though he was never over weight.

So hes been in Vitamin E 3 days now, at 10,000IU a day and still on good grazing. Yesterday I went for a short hack on the private land, first time I've ridden in 3 weeks. When I first got on he didn't want to move, very crabby, felt extremely tucked up behind. I kept asking and eventually he walked out of it. Gave him 15 minutes walking around the fields before he was wanting to go faster, so had a trot and he took me into a canter! We walked down a hill, he walked down normally.. usually he 'tight rope' walks down any degree of hill even on 4 bute a day.

I also noticed he had froffed on the bit when we got back (this horse I've backed myself, owned since a youngster) which was a first. I put him out on his own as friends were still riding, so he had no neighbours at all. I usually stay with him but he just walked off and grazed like a normal horse yet no horses were in sight. He usually goes beside himself, calling, galloping, looses his head every single day. This morning, my friend bought hers in, he continued to graze. No horses in sight, no bother.

I really hope we have found what it is all along and hope he continues this way! I've been recommended on a Facebook group for PSSM a hair test to sample for PSSM 2, P3, P4, and Px. Has anyone else tried this? It feels worth it for about £200!
https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com/pssm2/

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Thank you all. Very helpful much appreciated. @TheSpottyCobby thats interesting, as mine was at worst when on box rest and being fed tons of haylage ad-lib to keep him occupied, even though he was never over weight.

So hes been in Vitamin E 3 days now, at 10,000IU a day and still on good grazing. Yesterday I went for a short hack on the private land, first time I've ridden in 3 weeks. When I first got on he didn't want to move, very crabby, felt extremely tucked up behind. I kept asking and eventually he walked out of it. Gave him 15 minutes walking around the fields before he was wanting to go faster, so had a trot and he took me into a canter! We walked down a hill, he walked down normally.. usually he 'tight rope' walks down any degree of hill even on 4 bute a day.

I also noticed he had froffed on the bit when we got back (this horse I've backed myself, owned since a youngster) which was a first. I put him out on his own as friends were still riding, so he had no neighbours at all. I usually stay with him but he just walked off and grazed like a normal horse yet no horses were in sight. He usually goes beside himself, calling, galloping, looses his head every single day. This morning, my friend bought hers in, he continued to graze. No horses in sight, no bother.

I really hope we have found what it is all along and hope he continues this way! I've been recommended on a Facebook group for PSSM a hair test to sample for PSSM 2, P3, P4, and Px. Has anyone else tried this? It feels worth it for about £200!
https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com/pssm2/

Yes I had also made the haylage mistake whilst he was in (for a completely unrelated issue), so that, the box rest and the balancer just tipped mine over the edge, if it hadn't happened I would probably be none the wiser, but there you go, in a way I'm glad it happened and that I know.

I know some people who have gone the whole hog and tested for all, it's what I would have done if mine came back negative for type 1, and if he ever develops symptoms again whilst on the same management he is now I wouldn't hesitate to see if mine is carrying any other types (I hope and pray to whatever looks over us that he doesn't as having 1 type is enough of a drama!)

Sounds very positive with the addition of the vitamin e, fingers crossed for you this continues

 

[PapaverFollis]

Sounds really positive, FH!

Regarding testing... if it changes management or satisfies curiosity then go for it. I've not bothered even doing the PSSM1 test yet because even if it came back negative I'd be too scared of her tying up again to change her management! I've spent the testing money on vitamin E! IF there was a question mark over there being another problem that would change what I needed to be doing or that would make my current management harmful then I would test. But for me, in discussion with a vet, there isn't. Vets still convinced the tye ups have been random events to be honest. I've phoned then every time and they've never wanted to see her. She probably has "BIG! NEEDLE PHOBIC!" written on her notes though which probably influences that! ?

So we carry on.

I think in your situation with the various potential complicating factors I'd want to test. If it comes back positive for PSSM1 and PSSM1 management improves the matter then I don't know if I would bother testing for the type 2s.

 

[paddy555]

I would test for PSSM1 and if came back negative I would test for PSSM2. I cannot see the PSSM2 test would be any more expensive than a muscle biopsy. There is a lot of info on the FB PSSM groups about PSSM2 and refining the diet in accordance with the various variants.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Have sent off tests for PSSM1 and PSSM2 using a hair sample (biposy was close to £1000, hair test was £200. Vet agreed to do DNA test)

He is still feeling much better. Hes been on Dantrolene for 4 days now (vet prescribed) as well as vitamin E at 10,000IU a day. I usually get on to ride and he won't go forwards without me really asking, I just assumed he was always nappy. I got on yesterday and he was trying to walk off before I'd finished tightening the girth! He then led the ride, where as usually he lags at the back like a donkey. His muscles are much softer too and hes standing much more normal, although he does still rest legs but when he stands square he stands 'normally' not with his hind legs almost right underneath him like hes uncomfortable.

He does still dig the ground after work, and am sure thats not a naughtiness as he doesn't do it any other time.

If it isn't PSSM, could it be hes been deficient in say Vitamin E and its caused a muscle issue? Hes just turned 8.. and I'm told PSSM usually shows at this age if they have it.

 

[paddy555]

yes, vitamin E deficient myopathy.

Point 6 of the link below refers.


https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...g-laboratory/selecting-a-vitamin-e-supplement

 

[SEL]

I'm still at raw human sewage on the fields!!

Mine can handle a little grass but she's a devil for destroying fencing and if she has too much those bum muscles go solid and she's exhausted.

You do need to play around with supplements. I bought baby food containers and made up 2 weeks worth in advance. Stopped me fiddling so I could see what was / wasn't working.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

So fast forward a few weeks. PSSM1 negative, but knew it would be. Awaiting type 2 results.

He is 100x better since being on Vitamin E, protein (3 Aminos) and dantroline. Although started falling over or tripping (not sure which, but had cuts on knees when in) so stopped Dantroline and thankfully hasn't happened since. He has been much happier, more affectionate and clearly feeling better. The vet visited yesterday and was shocked how much better he was, he could get canter on both reins on the lunge.. wow! 5 weeks ago he simply couldn't and would almost rope canter/bunny hop.

Anyway, I did mention to the vet his front tendon area had been a bit inflamed in the last week (since he was a random idiot in the fields) o I'd been cold hosing and going steady. The vet thought it was hot and slightly swollen below his knee behind, even though sound but because he tore his SDFT in that leg last October hes coming back to scan it this week and wants him kept in until its been scanned.

Vets now thinking he may of tore his check ligament in that leg, grrrrrrr. One thing after the other!

 

[milliepops]

Oh nooooo

I'm sure you know CLs are not so worrying in terms of soft tissue injuries. Millie did 2 and although more rehab was tedious they never bothered her again.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I'm sure you know CLs are not so worrying in terms of soft tissue injuries. Millie did 2 and although more rehab was tedious they never bothered her again.

What was your rehab process? I can't seem to find anything on it. Luckily after lunging for the vet it didn't make it any worse, he did say he could of gone out if you could GUARANTEE he won't run around He said to ride him, but stay in a walk. Vet wasn't to worried, said he could of just tweaked it rather than tore it. The swelling is in the same place (and same leg!) as it was in October when he tore his SDFT which worries me, that was 3 months box rest and scan showed it had healed lovely but I guess it won't ever be as strong as before.

 

[milliepops]

as you are scanning i think that will inform your rehab programme. The first one Millie did on the gallops (annoyingly I had hired them for some good footing for canterwork and she put a foot down a hole) the scan showed the ligament was very badly disrupted. She actually had PRP on that because it was insured and such a mess. she had quite a long spell of rest because it took a long time to start looking more organised but then it was standard soft tissue rehab of road work in walk slowly increasing up to an hour of walk/trot before starting in the school.

the second one she did playing in the field, it was a very subtle injury which took a bit of finding but I knew that's what she had done. small lesion in the ligament this time. similar rehab after a period of rest, i only started working her when the scans showed significant healing. if you haven't actually got lots of torn fibres then hopefully you won't have so much hassle.

 

[SEL]

That's good news on the pssm type 1 results & it sounds like you're getting good results with the supplements so even if pssm 2 is positive hopefully you've found what works.

Sharing your pain on new injuries. Mine trotted up lame for the physio on Fri. We were both desperately hunting for stones in her hoof but there's a bit of swelling up the leg. Don't think I've had a month without a vet bill this year!