Muscle Myopathy.. the worst luck with horses :(

[Hormonal Filly]

Urgh, feeling really meh at the moment about everything. Are some people just destined to have broken horses?

My 5yo ISH has always had good days and bad days. My last horse (Welsh D) had a muscle myopathy so she has always been on vitamin E. micronised lisneed and a good balancer since I bought her.

She is over all the liver issues (entire yard affected) so that is a pro. One day shes really up for it, the next she isn't. On my lesson a couple of weeks ago she was amazing.. I jumped in the field a couple of weeks ago to and she was pulling me arms out and then a couple of days later like riding a different horse. I have always thought the change was greenness and nappiness if I'm honest. She is also difficult to shoe, she doesn't do anything naughty she just can't hold the position for long and fidgets. No issues ever picked up with physio or oestopath, my vet is happy with her movement wise.

She was scoped last week because she became reactive to me touching her girth 3 weeks ago. She has also been grumpy and not herself (she will try and bite my arm off if I touch her girth area, have tried time off, changing girths, massage, no improvement) She also became very tail swishy suddenly to ride, even to lunge. The scope showed a very healthy stomach bar two very tiny (2mm) ulcers.

She had her bloods done at the same time last week, her CK and AST are higher than they should be.

My vet thinks the bloods and her symptoms shows she probably does have some kind of myopathy. (Neg PSSM1) He has said we could try some ulcer medication for 2 weeks, see if the sensitive to touch improves. He said after we could do a muscle biposy and go from there.

Last night I turned her out in a light weight (her clip has grown back) and this morning she was cold, feel guilty about that but another sign she needs to be kept warm?

A friend said to add Equijewel to her diet, because they get energy from fat? She is a really good doer so doesn't get much feed wise.

She is currently fed:
Dengie Healthy Tummy
Micronised Linseed 150g (Have just recently started giving her 200g)
Pea protein (just had a sack delivered, she hasn't had this for 3 months)
4,000 IU Vitamin E day
Equimins balancer
Joint supplement
Regumate
Salt
Any feed advice appreciated.

We team chased once last month and she was cracking, we've also done a few funrides and camp. She is a lovely genuine horse. On my mind in the fuure - I'm aware some of these horses need to take a step back which is what happened with my Welsh D (He was loaned as a casual happy hack/pet to a older lady with all issues disclosed) and I'm stressing the same will happen again. I don't want to just plod around if I'm honest, I did that for 2 years on my Welsh D which is why I decided to part with him. That sounds really heartless but its so expensive and we need to enjoy to. I don't know what will happen if it comes to that She is on DIY livery, seen to twice a day by myself and really wants for nothing.

Sorry for the huge post. Applause to anyone who read it all!

 

[ycbm]

If you aren't insured then I would ask your vet what difference to the treatment it will make for you to pay a very big bill for a muscle biopsy.

I feel your pain. I reduced and reduced my aims for my last horse and his stamina still got less as he got older, until at 8 he bulked up and was no longer able to hold his second problem, wonky bones, at bay.

It does seem likely you have a horse with PSSM or some other muscle myopathy. Did you just want to vent or would you like to ask some specific questions?
.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

If you aren't insured

She is insured, NFU have been great.

Did you just want to vent or would you like to ask some specific questions?
.

Bit of both.. I feel better now I've had a vent (sorry all) but also not sure if I need to adjust her feed (is it worth adding Equi-jewel?) or not.

Any advice on feed or what I could do differently would be helpful. She has been in during the day and out at night, but recently (weirdly) hates being out, even in the herd and is waiting at the gate a lot. Not tons of grass, but enough out there. She hates being out 24/7 and hates the rain, so might be related to a myopathy and preferring the comfort of her stable. She already gets warmed up for a good 15 minutes before doing any work.

 

[ycbm]

Hating rain has certainly been a thing with a couple of PSSM horses I've known. Cold is a well known issue, "over" rugging is standard for these horses. There's a PSSM thread running, you could join that or check it out for feeding ideas.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My mare is -ve for type 1, but responds very well to being kept warm (utterly essential) and to high levels of natural vit E (also essential), she is on 8000iu Pro Earth nat vit E per day.

I did not get her muscle biopsied as the above management changes completely turned her around. This was in 2017, a year after I had bought her aged 10.

Before this, she was so grumpy and unhappy that I was at the point of gifting her back to her breeder. She had previously flown through a 5 stage vetting by a top referral practice. Putting her on vit E was a last chance whim that I didn’t expect to work - she was transformed for the better within 48 hours.

My vets agree that she has very likely some sort of PSSM, but without the muscle biopsy results there is not a definite diagnosis. I swerved the biopsy as it is invasive, can give false -vet results and I had her management nailed by then, but for completeness it ought really to have been done.

She has a very extensive collection of rugs to keep her warm enough year round.

Good luck.

 

[SEL]

Mine is diagnosed P1 and has a whole shed full of rugs

Linseed can affect some. It was one of the old posters on here years ago who told me to try without and she was markedly better.

I was always useless at keeping a diary but it's a good idea to give you awareness of what is triggering the sluggish days. I had to retire mine when her suspensory injury meant she couldn't stay in enough work to keep her muscles soft. She's fine in a field but if I put a saddle on her I'd probably not live to tell the tale! When she was rideable then if she had a day off I'd do a quiet day the next day and build up a bit more the day after. She was happy enough 45 minutes hard work in a clinic but would then hit a wall. I found feeding her higher sugar grass pellets or haylage just before the clinic gave her extra oomph. It's worth playing with the timing of your feed as well as what you are feeding.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Mine is diagnosed P1 and has a whole shed full of rugs

Linseed can affect some. It was one of the old posters on here years ago who told me to try without and she was markedly better.

I was always useless at keeping a diary but it's a good idea to give you awareness of what is triggering the sluggish days. I had to retire mine when her suspensory injury meant she couldn't stay in enough work to keep her muscles soft. She's fine in a field but if I put a saddle on her I'd probably not live to tell the tale! When she was rideable then if she had a day off I'd do a quiet day the next day and build up a bit more the day after. She was happy enough 45 minutes hard work in a clinic but would then hit a wall. I found feeding her higher sugar grass pellets or haylage just before the clinic gave her extra oomph. It's worth playing with the timing of your feed as well as what you are feeding.

Thanks SEL. Are hard muscles a symptom? Her muscles have always been very loose and wobbly to touch (I remember my gelding had solid muscles)

I do notice for the first 10 minutes she is very quiet and then perks up the more she does.

Today I rode at just walk for 45 minutes, just to keep her moving. To early to see a change from diet as it’s only been a day on the protein.

 

[paddy555]

I would do a lot more rugging and a lot more vit E. ie 10000iu and see if there is any difference.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I would do a lot more rugging and a lot more vit E. ie 10000iu and see if there is any difference.

She is now in a 100g combo, her clip has grown back but when re clipping her this week (usually hunter or blanket) I think she’ll need a 200g?

I did try 8,000 IU at the start of the year and she became SO spooky. She doesn’t usually look at anything and I remember nearly being launched off. I’ll try more vitamin E now and see how things go.

Her feed is mostly just powder!

 

[paddy555]

I found mine became spooky on micro linseed. Try going totally over the top on rugging. You have nothing to loose. Everything is experimenting. What suits one doesn't suit another. I presume you are using a good quarter sheet for riding?

you could blood test for vit E. May be interesting.



we along with perhaps others, seem to have grass problems in Oct. Gassy if too much, seems to give them "guts ache" (I don't mean colic just unhappy) I have 2 like that and started feeding one of them bicarb about 3 days ago and he is a lot happier. (he lets you know with his teeth otherwise) I gave the other one bicarb yesterday and I think gut wise he is happier. The other 2 don't seem to care. Cheap and can't do much harm to try.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I presume you are using a good quarter sheet for riding?

Only use a quarter sheet when it is sub 0.. would you use one if it’s 10 degrees? She always feels warm when I ride.

Thank you for all of your help.

She is very gassy at the moment and is in a big paddock with 4 others but has little grass. She was having very loose poo (another reason for the scope) but noticed today her poos were much more formed.

 

[paddy555]

I just about always use a warm quarter sheet and it if was sub 0 it would be the thick backpart of a rug (I posted about earlier on another thread)
10 degrees and no question it would be on. Wet or windy it would be on.. These past few days has been iffy. Some days it is on, some he has gone without. He's not allowed to get wet on his backside.

When I get back he either has a proper rug and goes out or if he has to stay in he has a thermatex but I always put a blanket (old travel rug folded into 4) as well over his bum.

Perhaps I am over rugging per many people but it does work for mine. If I made a mistake and only put say a 100g on (he wanders between a shelter and down a short track at night,, hates being stabled) and should have put a 200g on by the morning it would be obvious when he was ridden.

Like some others we have an extensive wardrobe of rugs

 

[SEL]

Thanks SEL. Are hard muscles a symptom? Her muscles have always been very loose and wobbly to touch (I remember my gelding had solid muscles)

I do notice for the first 10 minutes she is very quiet and then perks up the more she does.

Today I rode at just walk for 45 minutes, just to keep her moving. To early to see a change from diet as it’s only been a day on the protein.

Mine can have looser bottom muscles than some but she's very tight down her back which is why she can't really do light hacking - she was cold backed in regular work and in irregular / light work I'd probably get decked. Very tight hamstrings.

What we did find was although the surface muscles felt loose she was very restricted in the deeper muscles such as the psoas. I've often thought that tightness there probably didn't help her hocks (arthritis at just 6) and she responded well to steroid in her SI when there was nothing much in the joint to see on ultrasound - but tight muscles getting relief from steroid would make sense.

Sometimes though even without a diagnosed myopathy vitamin E and decent rugs can really help. I've lost track of the number of times people have said their horse feels stiff & grumpy and I've suggested a warmer rug only for it to miraculously improve. I know over rugging is a problem but so is a cold horse!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Really helpful thank you @SEL @paddy555!

I’ve increased her vitamin E to 8,000 IU a day and she is getting approx 250g a day pea protein, for the last 2 days.

I clipped her out yesterday. I did try a 100g Horsewear turnout with a 100g under it but she was far too warm, so took the 100g under rug off. She was warm this in the field this morning in the 100g.

She definitely seems a lot happier in herself.. can it make a change that quickly?

She was wormed just over a week ago with Alonate P because her count came back slightly high, unless it was that which affected her.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My mare is -ve for type 1, but responds very well to being kept warm (utterly essential) and to high levels of natural vit E (also essential), she is on 8000iu Pro Earth nat vit E per day.

I did not get her muscle biopsied as the above management changes completely turned her around. This was in 2017, a year after I had bought her aged 10.

Before this, she was so grumpy and unhappy that I was at the point of gifting her back to her breeder. She had previously flown through a 5 stage vetting by a top referral practice. Putting her on vit E was a last chance whim that I didn’t expect to work - she was transformed for the better within 48 hours.

My vets agree that she has very likely some sort of PSSM, but without the muscle biopsy results there is not a definite diagnosis. I swerved the biopsy as it is invasive, can give false -vet results and I had her management nailed by then, but for completeness it ought really to have been done.

She has a very extensive collection of rugs to keep her warm enough year round.

Good luck.

This is like my story apart from mine was always fine to ride apart from being sharp when younger and he tied up twice.

Parents neg for type 1, vet agreed not to do the byopsy as its invasive and we were going to change the management anyway.

So he is on 5,000 iu of vit e
Salt


He was on chaff but since jis cushings diagnosis (he is now 15) he wont eat it) so now only eats it in a small amount of baileys low cal soaked. I have never given him anything like that and i hope the fillers in it do not cause any other issues. He is sensitive to oat feed and alfafa but as he is having less than a quarter of a cup soaked i think ut should be fine.


Again he was rugged up but since his cushings diagnosis he temp regulation has gone haywire and he is now a 'hot temp' horse

I do think it sounds like a muscle myopathy.

 

[Landcruiser]

Selenium. I know I keep banging on about it in multiple threads but there is little awareness in the UK (including amongst vets) and it's a real and increasing problem. Have your vet do a Selenium level test. My mare had raised CK levels over 2 or three blood tests which were unexplained, and vet/lab suspected a myopathy. Then I had them test Se levels on a hunch - results showed them to be very low, about half the bottom figure of the reference range, as below:

(SELEN) Selenium 697 nmol/L (ref range: 1200 - 3200).

I see you are giving Equimins OP. So was I. It contains very little Selenium. It's no good giving Vit E if the selenium is too low, as they work hand in hand. I'm not saying this is what's going on, but it's an easy one to rule out. My mare has been much happier and more active since her Se levels have normalized, and the CK levels are also now normal.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Really interesting thank you @Landcruiser.. I haven’t opened an insurance claim for muscular yet but want vitamin E levels checkedand will ask if selenium can be tested.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@Landcruiser my vet agreed it was worth trying supplementing the selenium. He said blood testing for it is difficult. Will start her on the supplement today.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

A week tomorrow on the diet of increased vitamin E and added protein.

If I’m honest can’t say I’ve noticed much of a difference.. she is still quite grumpy. In summer she was keen as anything to canter across the usual fields pulling my arms out, this week she just wanted to walk.

She is very quiet and ‘sleepy’ almost, she doesn’t want to go out and drags to the field (she is in at night) so that could be a bit of stubbornness as she does like her stable.

She is still very sensitive (will bite) if I touch where the girth sits or her pecks. No reaction to the girth weirdly. New saddle was fitted last week along with a new girth, the sensitive to touch in this area has been going on for the last month now.

Vet is baffled if I’m honest, bloods are all normal bar muscle enzymes ever so slightly raised. He did say it could be hormonal even though she is on regumate.

The physio is out today so interested in her thoughts.
Considering trying a Bute trial if no difference on selenium. I originally got the vet a year ago in October because she became stuffy and similar, even though liver damage was diagnosed it’s a similar thing happening again.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

In the field she often running about (and loosing shoes) even though the others are old and quiet, very strange.. expect her to be quiet in all aspects but she isn’t when turned out.

 

[Landcruiser]

I'm surprised your vet advised to supplement Se without checking levels - too MUCH is very toxic/deadly, so you definitely don't want to supplement if you don't need to. It's a blood test - my vets had no issue testing for it at all, in fact the first time we tested it I'd already had the bloods re-tested tested for CK levels and the lab were able to use same blood when I got those results and saw the still elevated CK, and asked for an Se test. Apparently there's also a skin/hair test but I think bloods are easier. I stopped specifically supplementing Se once levels normalised.

 

[Landcruiser]

| Rossdales Veterinary Surgeons

Sample RequirementTurnaround TimeSerumSame working day Elevations are seen in the presence of acute muscle injury (eg exertional rhabdomyolysis, atypical myopathy, myositis, trauma, recumbency, vitamin E/selenium deficiency, HKPP) . Levels peak at 6-12 hours post injury and return to...

www.rossdales.com

This is what alerted me to the CK/Se link

 

[Landcruiser]

Q&A: Selenium Deficiency in Horses - Kentucky Equine Research

ker.com

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I'm surprised your vet advised to supplement Se without checking levels - too MUCH is very toxic/deadly, so you definitely don't want to supplement if you don't need to. It's a blood test - my vets had no issue testing for it at all, in fact the first time we tested it I'd already had the bloods re-tested tested for CK levels and the lab were able to use same blood when I got those results and saw the still elevated CK, and asked for an Se test. Apparently there's also a skin/hair test but I think bloods are easier. I stopped specifically supplementing Se once levels normalised.

I asked him if the lab could use the same blood sample, he said it would need to be a different vial. He also said selenium test shows other minerals as well so isn’t simple to differentiate between them? I’m not very clued up on it all.

Thank you, all very helpful.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Physio today. No soreness. She said she feels exceptionally well so that is good news. Slightly tight behind the back of the saddle area if anything at all.

No reactions to her girth area or pecks today.. physio said muscles don’t feel tight there and very loose. Very strange. Yesterday she was still trying to bite me when I touched her there.

 

[DabDab]

Horses with some kind of gut discomfort can be really upset by activating (probably the wrong word, but can't think of a better one) the nerves by touching their chest area. And I also have a vague recollection of hearing about horses who's nervous system was on overdrive (can't remember the reason) that almost dropped to their knees when poked in the chest. Might she still have something a bit amiss with her body after the liver issue?

Also, if she is really reactive in particular places, it might be worth trying a Bowen equine practitioner. I've found Bowen treatments (for both horse and for myself actually) really useful with non-specific not quite right-ness, and if nothing else it is a different set of eyes that will look at the patient from a slightly different viewpoint if your current set of professionals are drawing a blank. They might just notice something that gives vet etc something different to look at.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Horses with some kind of gut discomfort can be really upset by activating (probably the wrong word, but can't think of a better one) the nerves by touching their chest area. And I also have a vague recollection of hearing about horses who's nervous system was on overdrive (can't remember the reason) that almost dropped to their knees when poked in the chest. Might she still have something a bit amiss with her body after the liver issue?

Also, if she is really reactive in particular places, it might be worth trying a Bowen equine practitioner. I've found Bowen treatments (for both horse and for myself actually) really useful with non-specific not quite right-ness, and if nothing else it is a different set of eyes that will look at the patient from a slightly different viewpoint if your current set of professionals are drawing a blank. They might just notice something that gives vet etc something different to look at.

Thank you that is helpful

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Well today she is unhappy with me touching her girth or peck area. Going to bite herself when I touch there but no reaction to the saddle and girth being done up..

Physio did note she lacks muscle through her middle gluteal and it’s bilateral. She always has, she doesn’t have a very good bum considering the work she is in which is ridden 4 days a week and we do lots of cantering across open fields.

Rode today and she seemed more keen, but it was extremely windy (45mph winds) so maybe just a bit more on edge due to the weather.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Sorry for all these updates, but mainly for me even if no one else is reading.

Today another livery said she was galloping around the field bucking about.

She seemed much brighter to come in and in general. Rode in the school, she was keen and did some lovely canter poles. She just felt really nice, lovely outline and contact.

It’s day 3 of the selenium.. she’s getting 2mg a day. Not sure how long it would take to make a difference if she was deficient.

 

[Landcruiser]

Sorry for all these updates, but mainly for me even if no one else is reading.

Today another livery said she was galloping around the field bucking about.

She seemed much brighter to come in and in general. Rode in the school, she was keen and did some lovely canter poles. She just felt really nice, lovely outline and contact.

It’s day 3 of the selenium.. she’s getting 2mg a day. Not sure how long it would take to make a difference if she was deficient.

It didn't take my mare long - a few days after starting supplement I was seeing a real difference in her activity levels and freedom of movement.