Muscle Myopathy.. the worst luck with horses :(

[Hormonal Filly]

We have a pole rally Sunday. She felt relaxed and 'loose' as soon as we got into the indoor, usually she feels a bit tense and unsure (very spooky arena, open sides with sheep outside) She was much more keen, I had to woah her because she wanted to canter over the trotting poles at one point.

We hacked early this morning, usually this one route she naps but she marched on out. Ears forward. She was wanting to canter and when we cantered it took me a few strides to steady her up.

She has been on the selenium for nearly a week now, the only other change is she did go into the winter field a few days ago but she is muzzled/out during the day. I saw the biggest difference 3 days after starting selenium before the field move. Don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, but fingers crossed.

I've reduced her vitamin E back down to 3,000IU a day (saw 0 difference on 8,000iu day) continuing with 2mg selenium a day. Noticed most balancers contain 1-2mg selenium bar Equimins with 0.3mg per dose.. I thought I did my research but clearly not very well, so kicking myself a bit.

 

[PurBee]

Noticed most balancers contain 1-2mg selenium bar Equimins with 0.3mg per dose..

Which equimins product are you talking about?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Which equimins product are you talking about?

Equimins Concentrate balancer

Per 60g dose (if my calculations are right) 0.4mg of selenium, if I’m wrong please do say PB.

 

[PurBee]

Equimins Concentrate balancer

Per 60g dose (if my calculations are right) 0.4mg of selenium, if I’m wrong please do say PB.

Crikey - sorry for the long-winded answer but its to answer the inevitable questions that arise from selenium forms/absorbancy.
Quick answer in bold, scroll down

If you mean their Advanced concentrate complete balancer, the selenium is:

Trace Elements​	Per kg​
Sodium Selenite (E 8)	650 mg
Selenised Yeast, Inactivated (3b8.11)	730 mg

2 Different forms of selenium used (we’ll get to that later) but combined equal 1380mg per kilo.


A 60g dose would give 82.8mg of these combined forms of selenium.


The RDA horse doses of ANY nutrient is the Elemental quantity. The pure substance not bound to anything at all.
For selenium the RDA for horses is between 2-5mg per day of PURE selenium. (Yet more is tolerated, and toxicity/death is way high)

All producers of feeds/supplements use forms bound to other nutrients, and it is my bug bear in this life, that they rarely tell us what elemental doses are included in the product - so we have to go hunting for that info, and do the maths that they couldnt be bothered to do!


In your 60g dose we have 39mg of Sodium Selenite - the elemental ratio of this form of selenium is 2:1 = 13mg pure elemental selenium.

We could think ‘crap! Thats a high dose!’ - but not all of the E. Selenium will be absorbed -its the poorly absorbed inorganic form of selenium that plants eat and convert to more bioavailable forms - its water soluble and is pooped out readily too.
Selenite is absorbed about 50% at best depending on gut health - 40% = 5.2mg likely absorbed.

The NRC have stated that the upper tolerable limit for horses is 22mg elemental. The kill rate is a really high dose over 1000mg. We do have some wriggle room with feeding selenium but, as we all may remember with the US polo horse group wrongly injection dosed, there’s no wriggle room for injecting a selenium supplement straight into the bloodstream and getting the wrong dose. Fed by mouth theres lots of losses compared to shooting a high dose straight into the bloodstream.
(if i remember correctly the polo horses dose was made up wrong by the chemists - grams instead of milligrams per dose )


The absolute lowest to stop the worst selenium deficiency symptoms showing is 1mg elemental selenium per day avg.500kg horse. Many nutritionists online do write that this is the lowest and is not optimal for full selenium bio-functionality. Its never good to be on the very edge of deficiency - the body systems will be struggling. So hence why the recommended dose varies between all official sources 1-5mg.

Here’s some info:

Calculating Selenium Levels in Horse Feeds and Supplements - Thorne Bottom Farm

The National Research Council (NRC) has estimated the minimum selenium requirement for horses at 0.1 milligram (mg) per kilogram (kg) of feed consumed. Using

thornebottomfarm.com

If we move on to the Selenium Yeast in the equimins balancer, that’s 43.8mg in your 60g dose.

Working out the elemental form of selenium in selenium yeast is not possible without that particular yeast theyve used being analysed. The yeast forms contain selenium methionine, cysteine, sodium selenite and pure selenium - YET from a paper dedicated to researching selenium yeast contents - they stated on average per kilo of the yeast product had between 1000-3000mg selenium forms in it. Out of all these various selenium forms, the volumes varied greatly between suppliers.


Selenium yeast form is preferred for it is the organic bio-available forms mostly in it, primarily selenomethionine.

Let’s say its even 3% - that would be 1.31mg of ‘bound’ selenium yeast in the equimins. The elemental value of methionine selenium is high and absorbed well, so we could ‘guess’ (hate to but have to due to it being a non-standardised product) there’s 1mg of well absorbed selenium

That is a total of 14mg of Elemental Selenium in a 60g dose of Advanced complete (roughly).
Likely absorption of both types of doses = 6.2mg

There are gut losses, 14mg is not all absorbed. Each horse will have a different gut biome and nutritional profile causing them to absorb more or less than another horse.

Selenium is a tricky mineral to deal with. We have to consider grazing and hay values do have some selenium in too. You’re in the southwest HF which is mapped by uk geological surveys of having good selenium levels on average, compared to the ‘bread basket’ counties that produce grains and no longer use FYM as fertiliser and rely just on NPK to grow crops, that scream about depleting mineral levels including selenium.

I get my haylage from the south west and feel content there‘s selenium in it on average, there’s some, its not completely barren, so i am mindful of that. Selenium from plants is far better absorbed than inorganic selenium used in powder mixes. So we have to factor in all the foods theyre eating, as soil devoid completely of selenium is rare - so there will be some in beets, in wheatfeed mash, in straw/hays/grasses/ bagged feeds - trace amounts everywhere that add up.

As your horse has potential muscle issues, it’s likely best to get the blood tested for selenium as landcruiser suggests and did herself, to confirm for your own piece of mind where your horse it at in the blood range values.
While youre getting that blood test, id test sodium and magnesium bloods too, as selenium can increase sodium which then causes excretion of magnesium, which also causes tight sore muscles. Having those 3 minerals looked at to compare values will be interesting due to their interbioactivity.

With the 6.2mg likely absorbed of elemental selenium in the 60grams equimins dose, and factor in grass/hay, i’d personally rely upon that for selenium blood being ok. I’d worry about the gut health if its low.

I recall one article i read a while back now saying the trouble with selenium deficiency and toxicity is that some of the symptoms can mirror oneanother - so the only way to know if its too high or low, if we do suspect symptoms due to selenium, is to test the blood for a clearer idea.

Youve added another 2mg, what form of selenium is that? Is it powder or liquid?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Youve added another 2mg, what form of selenium is that? Is it powder or liquid?

Thank you PB for such a long reply. Blimey, almost sounds like to much selenium in the Equimins compared to FB and PE balancers at 1-2mg.. that’s very helpful to know.

She is fed salt, I thought ther was not much magnesium in Equimins (unless I’m wrong about that to?)

RE gut health. She has always had occasional runny poo and was wormed 3 weeks ago, with Alonate P so maybe if it’s gut related that makes sense.

My vet has confirmed he saw 2 tiny ulcers when scoping so she would be a grade 1.. he doesn’t think the size of them it would cause any problems but I’m hoping we can treat and see.

This is what she is getting:

Selenium For Horses | Organic | Forageplus

Our selenium for horses is a highly absorbable organic form of selenium produced from a natural yeast strain. No fillers, additives or bulking agents.

forageplus.co.uk

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Having spoken to my vet this morning, he’s dropping some ulcer medication off because he thinks it’s worth a try even if it’s he grade is only grade 1.

 

[Dontforgetaboutme]

My mare can be bit like this, not sure whether hormones or gut issues are at play. Sometimes she’s defensive of being touched somewhere and then day later she’s nah you’re good. Physio says nothing in her body suggests that strong a reaction. I know she braces when tense & I guess that makes her muscles sensitive to touch. Try tensing your neck & touching it. To help her I do some masterston method releases to relax her & have fed her aloe vera which seems to be therapeutic. Hope you get to the bottom of it

 

[Hormonal Filly]

My mare can be bit like this, not sure whether hormones or gut issues are at play. Sometimes she’s defensive of being touched somewhere and then day later she’s nah you’re good. Physio says nothing in her body suggests that strong a reaction. I know she braces when tense & I guess that makes her muscles sensitive to touch. Try tensing your neck & touching it. To help her I do some masterston method releases to relax her & have fed her aloe vera which seems to be therapeutic. Hope you get to the bottom of it

Thank you for posting.

A few friends have said the same, they can be hormonal unlike geldings. She is on regumate but my vet says it doesn’t always stop all of the hormones. She has had huge teets recently to and been grumpy to other horses (but not to people)

She seems much happier in herself the last few days, maybe it wasn’t anything to do with the selenium and just hormonal.

Horses eh

 

[PurBee]

Thank you PB for such a long winded reply. Blimey, almost sounds like to much selenium in the Equimins compared to FB and PE balancers at 1-2mg.. that’s very helpful to know.

She is fed salt, I thought ther was not much magnesium in Equimins (unless I’m wrong about that to?)

RE gut health. She has always had occasional runny poo and was wormed 3 weeks ago, with Alonate P so maybe if it’s gut related that makes sense.

My vet has confirmed he saw 2 tiny ulcers when scoping so she would be a grade 1.. he doesn’t think the size of them it would cause any problems but I’m hoping we can treat and see.

This is what she is getting:

Selenium For Horses | Organic | Forageplus

Our selenium for horses is a highly absorbable organic form of selenium produced from a natural yeast strain. No fillers, additives or bulking agents.

forageplus.co.uk

I’d love to see a very large longterm study on blood selenium content in horses to ascertain truly what they should be getting. Especially for horses in work. If its easily excreted, and not easily absorbed,( unless yeast versions are solely used), and fed in such tiny amounts, there is likelihood for more cases of deficiency rather than toxicity.
The FP is yeast form and gives elemental values - theyre a brilliant company The dose given roughly matches the dose of yeast in equimins, so its small but a good absorption form.

If you had blood selenium tests knowing shes been getting equimins high elemental dose all this tine, and her gut isnt great, you’ll be so much clued-up on her absorption abilities.

I never forget reading the Hippocrates adage of “Good health begins with the gut” a few decades ago at the start of my nutritional journey. Horses being so gut sensitive, never has that phrase been so true. With good gut health ALL nutrients are better utilised.

Most balancers dont use enough magnesium - its understandable as that would really bulk up their product if they did as grams are needed per day compared to mg of everything else. I always have that as a separate.

Maybe your mare’s ulcers are aggravating her moreso despite being low grade? Fingers crossed the treatment helps.

You mention regumate, so i did a search and coincidentally found an old thread here from a poster who’s mare also became sensitive to touch in the areas you describe, bitey too - but her mare sounded like she got very aggressive and spooky, not wanting touch on regumate. There’s no follow-up on that thread, but a cervical infection was found and treated. Maybe pm the poster, if they still receive email alerts after all this time, to find out what happened?

A Side Effect of Regumate??

I have an extremely grumpy 15yo Haflinger mare who has early onset Cushing's. Her ACTH levels are now well under control with Prascend (Pergolide) but her temper has not improved (she first displayed her nasty side 6 months after I had bought her, in the autumn, when there is a seasonal rise in...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Maybe your mare’s ulcers are aggravating her moreso despite being low grade? Fingers crossed the treatment helps.

You mention regumate, so i did a search and coincidentally found an old thread here from a poster who’s mare also became sensitive to touch in the areas you describe, bitey too - but her mare sounded like she got very aggressive and spooky, not wanting touch on regumate. There’s no follow-up on that thread, but a cervical infection was found and treated. Maybe pm the poster, if they still receive email alerts after all this time, to find out what happened?

Thank you so much PB. We exchanged a lot of DMs over a year ago when I had all the liver troubles at my previous yard so thank you for your time on this to!

Very interesting because that posters description is the same as how my mare behaves.. will try contacting her.

Received the Gastroguard and Sucraflate today so she will be starting those . I was going to stop the regumate this month, but might wait a couple of weeks as don't want to change to much at once and not know what has effected her.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

We’re day 4 on ulcer meds.

Last night she reacted to me stroking her girth area, maybe it’s too early to notice a difference.

The last week she has felt brilliant to ride, she is keen and wants to go. I lunged in a head collar and she is moving so well, head lovely and low.

After speaking with @PurBee I stopped the selenium mid last week because Equimins has enough.

The only other change is over a week ago now she went into the winter field, long rested green grass. She’s been muzzled most days but can get enough.. PurBee mentioned there isn’t much magnesium at all in Equimins and it’s usually found in long grass so potentially this is what has picked her up?

Or maybe the pea protein, she has been on that for 2 weeks now.

I really have no idea.. but I’m not complaining!

Today I rode early with a friend, my mare wanted to lead the way and I struggled to hold her in a snaffle cantering across the fields.

Everything crossed, I find this useful to look back over (like a diary) so hope no one minds.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Yesterday evening she was extremely sensitive around her girth area, it seems to collide with me riding her.. I’m wondering if the Prolite girth doesn’t suit. I can’t see how with all the pressure being at the back of the girth, it’s comfortable?

I’ve switched back to the basic Shires fluffy girth today as we had a jump rally. She was amazing.. she is a super horse. I quote from the instructor after she jumped down a grid ‘wow, what a horse’

Going to look into the Mattes girths, and be interesting if she is sore if I start using the shires girth instead. 2 days off for her now.

 

[AandK]

I keep thinking I should get an anatomical girth for my guy, was also looking at Mattes. He is not girthy, but I think they must be more comfy for them maybe? But then he is very happy in his basic shires fluffy girth (snap!), so I'm thinking if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Update 2 weeks since my last update!

Ulcer meds made no difference to being extremely sensitive touch around her girth (had 2 weeks ulcer treatment) so vet agreed to not try more ulcer medication and to take her off the regumate because that can give some horses (like people) weird symptoms.

I stopped using the Prolite girth a couple of weeks ago, definitely seen an improvement using the Shires fluffy girth. She still has days she is more sensitive to touch, but it is a LOT better.

In terms of ridden, she has much more about her and is keen. She seems happier in herself to. This has been consistent for 2 weeks. I’m not really sure what’s caused the change.. but last week I had to change to a universal bit to hack because she has been strong.

She is now in at night (was in during the day) so maybe she wasn’t getting enough sleep out at night? I don’t know. I remember tacking her up 4 weeks ago and she was falling asleep.

Shes now on magnesium and has been for 2 weeks. Shes been on pea protein for 4 weeks and I’ve reduced the vitamin E to 2,000 IU day with no change in ‘muscle feel’

She is fully clipped in a 350g body with 200g neck and feels a good temperature, so she must be on the cool side of horses because some at my yard are fully clipped in 50g!

I don’t really know what’s caused her to perk up and be happier.. friends tell me their P2 type horses get a lot worse in winter yet she has improved.

Just wish they could speak!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Saddle fitter came yesterday, and commented on how lovely she went. Really 'pingy' according to her! Rode in the school yesterday and hacked today, she had plenty of energy and felt keen. Really pleased with her at the moment.

She is now up to 2x teaspoon a day of magnesium, @PurBee would this be enough? Although she was a bit spooky today, could that be due to to much magnesium? It hasn't calmed her, if anything the opposite which is what I wanted so thank you!

 

[PurBee]

Saddle fitter came yesterday, and commented on how lovely she went. Really 'pingy' according to her! Rode in the school yesterday and hacked today, she had plenty of energy and felt keen. Really pleased with her at the moment.

She is now up to 2x teaspoon a day of magnesium, @PurBee would this be enough? Although she was a bit spooky today, could that be due to to much magnesium? It hasn't calmed her, if anything the opposite which is what I wanted so thank you!

Great to hear she’s perked-up more now

2x tsp would roughly equate to 10g = 5g elemental magnesium. Horse 500kg maintenance RDA is 10g elemental (4tsp), as she is in work, you have scope for increasing her dose and seeing how she does.

Because magnesium is essential for producing ATP energy, the body will prioritise its use for that function, than the nervous system. Hence some horses becomes more energised and alert on mag.
The dose varies for each, finding the optimum dose for your horse is the key. We use the RDA as rough guidelines.

As she is getting a low dose, i suspect you’ll achieve the calming aspect by increasing the dose. I’d try 3tsp for a week, then 4tsp the week after. That will take you to RDA level. You might find you’d need to increase dose after 4tsp as she’s in work. Best to increase dose bit by bit and monitor effects.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Ridden wise she has energy and is forward.

Still extremely sensitive around her girth, she will fly around to bite air while putting the girth on and is clearly very uncomfortable.

She’s been off regumate, had the 2 weeks ulcer meds but vet said because no difference to stop.. but I’ve read some say it takes at least a month to see any difference?

Starting to wonder if it is ulcers, but it will take longer to see an improvement. Today she was worse reactive wise and she has been in over night. Saddle has been checked and is fine, back isn’t tight either is anywhere else (or the girth area) so it isn’t muscular tightness.

She does have high tape worm so will worm for that this weekend, will then phone the vet and ask for advice. I’m thinking now I have an ulcer claim might as well treat for ulcers for at least 6-8 weeks to see if it makes any difference.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

No reaction today to being stroked or groomed in the girth area.. baffled how one day she can be so bad, and the next totally fine. Hormones?

Didn’t manage to speak to my vet so will see what he says next week.

 

[PurBee]

Is the difference with her girthiness reactions maybe due to having food verses no food in her stomach, before being girthed/groomed?

If she’s just eaten literally before being groomed the food mass will alleviate acute acidic ulcer pain, but if half hour has passed since food, then she’s tacked-up, the stomach is likely emptying/more empty and ulcers more exposed to stomach acid and more acute pain?

I know you said her ulcers were low grade, but its strange the medication hasnt helped even just a bit.
One consideration worth chatting with your vet about it heliobacter pylori infection of her stomach as causation of her ulcers, rather than the ulcers being a result of an issue elsewhere - purely because of her history grazing the sewage spread fields of your previous yard, would have potentially exposed her to H. Pylori (much higher risk than the exposure level of the average grazing horse)
H.Pylori in humans is found to be the cause of a very high % of human stomach ulcers, which now helps cure thousands of sufferers rather than them living on atacids for life, as they are now treated with targeted antibiotics to kill H.Pylori, which resolves the ulcers.
This particular bacteria can survive stomach acid and live in the stomach nibbling on the mucousy stomach wall, creating lesions/ulcers

A while back i looked for studies in horses with H Pylori ulcer causes and the % was very low. So its not usual for horses to have ulcers due to this bacteria, but in your mares case, going by her sewage exposure history, it’s an angle worth considering, as H. pylori is commonly found in sewage water. I cant recall which antibiotic is the correct one to kill H. Pylori, but it does need to be a specific one, rather than generic anti.B’s.

Or maybe the move to a new yard has stressed her causing low grade ulcers? Has she been more stressed generally since moving?
My mare is a complete habit freak and any change can evoke a snort, glaring eyes, and a stroppy mood! When she moved to me there were grammy-worthy performances! The gelding thrives on change, having heaps of curiosity. Are mares more set-in-their-ways and opposed to change generally i wonder?

There’s alternative ulcer med routes to try, which you may have better luck with, while you have a claim ongoing currently.