Muscle stiffness

[Sail_away]

I had the physio out for my horse as a routine appointment a couple of weeks ago and she found quite a bit of stiffness over his back and his shoulders. I'm not too worried about the shoulders because I'm fairly sure that came from the field injury on his left fore and the subsequent compensation on the other leg, plus box rest etc. The back however surprised me as he'd been going very nicely. Since then he's stayed stiff across his back - it's not super noticeable, but he's not collecting as much as he has been and when I run the back of my hand firmly over his back he tenses the muscles there. It takes about five minutes of massaging gently and he's fine again but it is unusual for him. He's better after exercise than before - and worse after a day off.
I'm very much jumping to conclusions but I was thinking about treating him as a PSSM horse - namely rugging up more and trialling a high vitamin E dose (would welcome any further suggestions) whilst keeping the exercise going, just to see how he reacts. He has been on the cold side the last month - he's been out in a 0g for the last two weeks but hasn't been warm in it, even in mid/high teens with his winter fluff coming through. The few days he's had it off he's come in a little tucked up. He's in a 100g for tonight and tomorrow and if he's not hot in that I'll keep it on; he's getting clipped next week so will bring out the midweight rugs for then. He's definitely colder than last winter - I don't think I even rugged him bar torrential rain until he was clipped in mid october.
He is however very forward as usual, he just doesn't seem to be using that energy to collect himself unless he's excited or made to. So he's hardly classic PSSM horse and I'm feeling a bit silly for considering it - I just don't know what else it could be. The physio is out again in two weeks (soonest we could get) so will see what she says then, but in my amateur eyes he seems just as stiff as when she came out the first time. I'm quite sure I've missed something really simple so any ideas would be welcome!

 

[Dexter]

Test for Type 1. It costs £30 and takes about 10 days to come back. Its not silly to consider it. For the sake of £30 it will put your mind at rest or not as the case may be

 

[Sail_away]

Test for Type 1. It costs £30 and takes about 10 days to come back. Its not silly to consider it. For the sake of £30 it will put your mind at rest or not as the case may be

I’d thought about that but in my (admittedly limited) research I thought that type 1 was predominantly in certain breeds and unlikely to come up in others? He’s IDxTb, is there still a chance it could be type 1?

 

[Dexter]

yes, unfortunately, its been found in pretty much every single breed. TBs are much more likely to be Type 2 and it can sometimes be traced down the bloodlines from affected horses. IDs can be both. Type 2 is more usually characterised by explosive behaviour and muscle wastage but there's variation between the types. Type 1 tends to be a reluctance to go forwards, and the more classic tight muscles and tying up that people think of. But every horse is different. They can go years with no issue then have sudden problems, or have very mild low grade issues ticking away in the background from birth.

I'd test for type 1, if its negative then you have a dilemma as Type 2 testing is £240ish. Type 2 is the hardest to manage and the most likely to end a ridden career. There are some things you can do to see if they help which can provide an indication before testing though.

Ive been dealing with this for a few years now and tend to find when people start suspecting their horses have it, they do sadly. People know their horses and know when something isn't right

 

[rextherobber]

I'm testing my IDX TB with CAG in Germany, still waiting for type 1 results but got type 2 result yesterday (n/px) I have also had my horse on a PSSM type diet while dithering about testing (low sugar/starch chaff and vitamin e oil, salt and tri aminos) which has definitely helped.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I'm testing my IDX TB with CAG in Germany, still waiting for type 1 results but got type 2 result yesterday (n/px) I have also had my horse on a PSSM type diet while dithering about testing (low sugar/starch chaff and vitamin e oil, salt and tri aminos) which has definitely helped.

Where do you get your tri aminos from? need to adjust my suspected type 2 horse diet as this year he has become slightly symptomatic due to injury and drop in work load.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Mine is suspected type two, his parents are type one neg so he isn't that. he tied up twice four/five years ago and at the time there was no tail hair test for type two. so the vet and i agreed to just put him on the pssm diet and it worked up till now.

 

[Sail_away]

Thanks everyone - and thank you dexter for that explanation, that’s very informative. I’m schooling this afternoon so assuming he has the same difficulties I’ll start the pssm diet and rugging just in case. He doesn’t sound like he’d be type 1 as he’s still very forward. He had a rearing episode out hacking yesterday - there was a trigger but he’s never done it in the two years I’ve had him so that concerns me too. Think it’s time to get the vet involved (again...)

 

[Dexter]

Mine is suspected type two, his parents are type one neg so he isn't that. he tied up twice four/five years ago and at the time there was no tail hair test for type two. so the vet and i agreed to just put him on the pssm diet and it worked up till now.

The big problem with that is you have no idea which variant he has and treatment of PX will differ from the treatment of P2. You really need to test to know exactly what the issue is and what the best options are for treatment.

Its also worth bearing in mind that Type 2, in particular, is a degenerative condition sadly. Its almost certainly going to get worse with age and what worked once may well not work in the future.

People who knowingly breed from these horses are incredibly irresponsible and anyone who sells one on should be shot

 

[paddy555]

The big problem with that is you have no idea which variant he has and treatment of PX will differ from the treatment of P2. You really need to test to know exactly what the issue is and what the best options are for treatment.

bearing in mind of course that the PSSM 2 test has not been scientifically validated.
Point 2 of this link refers.

type-2-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

 

[rextherobber]

Where do you get your tri aminos from? need to adjust my suspected type 2 horse diet as this year he has become slightly symptomatic due to injury and drop in work load.

From Progressive Earth

 

[Dexter]

bearing in mind of course that the PSSM 2 test has not been scientifically validated.
Point 2 of this link refers.

type-2-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

Of course it hasn't. It is an enormous amount of work to validate something that tests for so many variations and they are still working on it. P8 and K1 will be available November 1st I think. Peer review is coming relatively soon though I believe talking to Paul at Equiseq.

There is more than enough evidence to back up the testing so that vets are happy to recommend it and insurance companies to pay for it.

 

[Sail_away]

Schooled today and he was running and could seem to collect or push. He’s tracking up and doesn’t look bad but there’s no sit at all. I don’t know what to do - vet is out anyway on Wednesday but would rather get them sooner. I don’t want to be worrying about it til then. Is there anything else apart from pssm to ask about? There’s definitely something wrong but I don’t want to jump to conclusions.

 

[paddy555]

Of course it hasn't. It is an enormous amount of work to validate something that tests for so many variations and they are still working on it. P8 and K1 will be available November 1st I think. Peer review is coming relatively soon though I believe talking to Paul at Equiseq.

There is more than enough evidence to back up the testing so that vets are happy to recommend it and insurance companies to pay for it.

did you not read the link I put? I seem to remember you quoted Valberg's work before but apparently not for this.


Equiseq have been saying peer review is coming soon for a VERY long time, they seem to be dragging their heels somewhat. . They were saying this back in 2016. We are still waiting. If there is enough evidence get on with it even if only for the variants P2, PX etc I very much suspect they will carry on making excuses and won't publish it. Why should they?

What/where is the scientific evidence you are talking about to back up the testing?

At one stage I was like you, thought this test was a game changer, now after a lot more reading I am waiting until it is validated by scientists.

 

[paddy555]

Schooled today and he was running and could seem to collect or push. He’s tracking up and doesn’t look bad but there’s no sit at all. I don’t know what to do - vet is out anyway on Wednesday but would rather get them sooner. I don’t want to be worrying about it til then. Is there anything else apart from pssm to ask about? There’s definitely something wrong but I don’t want to jump to conclusions.

I think you will make progress, one way or another, if you rug your horse and really get him warm. Mine TBx highland(not yet clipped) has a 450g rug on and will continue to do so until the end of next March. Keep him moving ie wandering with a shelter rather than shut in a stable. They do better if they keep moving. Exercise daily with an exercise sheet and trial some vit E. Many who have been successful have used equimins natural oil or forage plus natural vitE powder. If you were to do that for a good week you may have some answers.
Not sure what your vet is visiting for but you could ask them to blood test to look at CK and AST levels. That may give some idea.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I don't know what breed your horse is or where you are in the country but could your horse just have been a bit cold, I find 0g rugs actually make horses colder as they flatten the coat and add no warmth whatsoever, it's been quite windy and wet here in Hertfordshire and wouldn't have left mine out in the weather we have been having in no fill rugs, I sometimes find if a horse is stood cold for hours they don't perform as well and often look tucked up, I would be inclined to just put a warmer rug on and see if the situation improves before spending out on tests.

 

[Sail_away]

I don't know what breed your horse is or where you are in the country but could your horse just have been a bit cold, I find 0g rugs actually make horses colder as they flatten the coat and add no warmth whatsoever, it's been quite windy and wet here in Hertfordshire and wouldn't have left mine out in the weather we have been having in no fill rugs, I sometimes find if a horse is stood cold for hours they don't perform as well and often look tucked up, I would be inclined to just put a warmer rug on and see if the situation improves before spending out on tests.

I’m hoping this is what it is. He’s an Irish sports horse but takes after the draft side. Usually he’s not in anything at this time of year - he had a good 100g on today and was still stiff to touch. He’s noticeably better in a 0g than naked so I don’t think it’s the 0g causing issues. But perhaps there’s less grass than last year to keep him warm? Eta it’s been mostly 10–15 with a couple of storms where I am.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The big problem with that is you have no idea which variant he has and treatment of PX will differ from the treatment of P2. You really need to test to know exactly what the issue is and what the best options are for treatment.

Its also worth bearing in mind that Type 2, in particular, is a degenerative condition sadly. Its almost certainly going to get worse with age and what worked once may well not work in the future.

People who knowingly breed from these horses are incredibly irresponsible and anyone who sells one on should be shot

That's a very generalised veiw. His breeders test for type one which his parents are neg for due to the breeds society rules.

At the time of his birth there was only a muscle biopsy for type two and type two wasn't associated with his breed as much as type one.

His suspected type two is from the good amount of TB in him.

He is on the diet and management, it works for him so we just carry on, the vet said it's 50/50 if it's type two or a vit e deficiency.
So we treat as type two.

He is slightly worse this autumn but some of that is also down to having the first part of the year off due to bruised hoof and then the first half of the summer due to inflammation in his stifles because he had lost a lot of his strength so it's just a case of slowly slowly building him back up again and seeing how we go.

 

[Dexter]

did you not read the link I put? I seem to remember you quoted Valberg's work before but apparently not for this.


Equiseq have been saying peer review is coming soon for a VERY long time, they seem to be dragging their heels somewhat. . They were saying this back in 2016. We are still waiting. If there is enough evidence get on with it even if only for the variants P2, PX etc I very much suspect they will carry on making excuses and won't publish it. Why should they?

What/where is the scientific evidence you are talking about to back up the testing?

At one stage I was like you, thought this test was a game changer, now after a lot more reading I am waiting until it is validated by scientists.

Nope I didn't. I see so much utterly horrendous advice given about PSSM on here that I didn't bother. I'm constantly shocked at the horses that people post about that have it that arent being treated properly. No doubt at least partly caused by people telling others not to bother testing and just feed vitamin e and it will all be fine. And people talking openly about selling on horses with PSSM.

I linked to Valberg as there's a poster having horrible problems with her PX horse, blaming everything from feet to SI but not actively treating it or seemingly aware that it can and does cause all the symptoms she posts about and I thought it might help.

I dont spend a lot of time on here but do spend a lot of time raising awareness elsewhere and dealing directly with people who are currently involved in research, people at Equisec, university of minnesota etc. I am more than aware of the criticisms regarding the testing, but as far as I am concerned it is a game changer. The work coming out of the latest huge research project should go someway towards verifying that.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I’m hoping this is what it is. He’s an Irish sports horse but takes after the draft side. Usually he’s not in anything at this time of year - he had a good 100g on today and was still stiff to touch. He’s noticeably better in a 0g than naked so I don’t think it’s the 0g causing issues. But perhaps there’s less grass than last year to keep him warm? Eta it’s been mostly 10–15 with a couple of storms where I am.

I do think that it has suddenly got quite cold and some horses take time to adjust to sudden weather change, it's the same with heat one of mine will change performance wise when it gets really hot, and let's face it the weather is so changeable now it's no wonder horses struggle, I have Arabs that mainly live out they are quite hardy but don't like wet windy weather and will be cold and miserable if not warm enough and I think a lot of horses are the same really, one of my weather apps give me a real feel of the weather and sometimes with wind chill and rain it's surprisingly lower than you would expect.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No doubt at least partly caused by people telling others not to bother testing and just feed vitamin e and it will all be fine.

Nobody says that.

Feeding elevated vit E works for some - it did for mine, as does keeping her warm. She tested -ve for PSSM1, which I think at the time (2017) was the only test available. Vet agrees that she likely has a version of PSSM, and whilst she’d have liked to confirm that by muscle biopsy, agrees that seeing we have the management nailed, the results wouldn’t change anything. As the biopsy is invasive, I declined to have it done, as it wouldn’t change anything.

 

[paddy555]

Nope I didn't. I see so much utterly horrendous advice given about PSSM on here that I didn't bother. I'm constantly shocked at the horses that people post about that have it that arent being treated properly. No doubt at least partly caused by people telling others not to bother testing and just feed vitamin e and it will all be fine. And people talking openly about selling on horses with PSSM.

I linked to Valberg as there's a poster having horrible problems with her PX horse, blaming everything from feet to SI but not actively treating it or seemingly aware that it can and does cause all the symptoms she posts about and I thought it might help.

I dont spend a lot of time on here but do spend a lot of time raising awareness elsewhere and dealing directly with people who are currently involved in research, people at Equisec, university of minnesota etc. I am more than aware of the criticisms regarding the testing, but as far as I am concerned it is a game changer. The work coming out of the latest huge research project should go someway towards verifying that.

so you haven't bothered to read the comments about genetic testing and PSSM2 from one of the leading researchers, you think the advice given on here is frequently rubbish. I'm sorry we have given utterly horrendous advice. I thought much of the help given to people was pretty good actually and people have spent a lot of time trying to help. Apparently not.

I am not sure how we are supposed to suggest people treat their horses. I don't think that any of the advice I have given (or many others) has been just give vit e and all will be fine. You must have missed a lot of threads about PSSM. Most help given has suggested testing to eliminate PSSM1, for which there is a recognised test.

The validation of the PSSM2 test seems to be based on FB comments. They may be right, it may be the most perfect test or it may have flaws. Who knows.

Possibly when you are talking to your friends at equiseq you can ask them to get a move on, get the test reviewed and validated and they we can recommend it.

 

[BBP]

Nope I didn't. I see so much utterly horrendous advice given about PSSM on here that I didn't bother. I'm constantly shocked at the horses that people post about that have it that arent being treated properly. No doubt at least partly caused by people telling others not to bother testing and just feed vitamin e and it will all be fine. And people talking openly about selling on horses with PSSM.

I linked to Valberg as there's a poster having horrible problems with her PX horse, blaming everything from feet to SI but not actively treating it or seemingly aware that it can and does cause all the symptoms she posts about and I thought it might help.

I dont spend a lot of time on here but do spend a lot of time raising awareness elsewhere and dealing directly with people who are currently involved in research, people at Equisec, university of minnesota etc. I am more than aware of the criticisms regarding the testing, but as far as I am concerned it is a game changer. The work coming out of the latest huge research project should go someway towards verifying that.

I assume this is me? What active treatment is there for RER? I’m fully aware of the symptoms it can cause, but that doesn’t mean that hoof balance and sacroiliac/back are not relevant.

 

[SEL]

I assume this is me? What active treatment is there for RER? I’m fully aware of the symptoms it can cause, but that doesn’t mean that hoof balance and sacroiliac/back are not relevant.

I assumed it was you as well! In my case a suspensory injury has caused more problems than the myopathy - likely vicious circle with the 2 together.

One of the reasons for suggesting owners try vitamin E and rugging it because it can have life changing effects. I can't tag Leo Walker but the change in her pony from doing just that is incredible. Vitamin E deficiencies can present like a myopathy (Valberg)

I've had a number of friends with horses come back positive from the type 2 panel. For justifying their fears that there was something wrong with their horse it has been useful. For explaining exactly what is going wrong then less so - & that's why I'll be looking forward to Minnesota's study.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Following advice given on here has made a difference to mine. I've been told repeatedly to test for type 1 as well. I haven't but that is what I was advised. Never got a "chuck vitamin E at it and it'll be fine vibe". But also got clear, simple advice on what to try.

Regarding other symptoms etc... my impression from Valberg was that it was also important to rule out other possible causes if symptoms first before considering PSSM. I'm pretty sure she says that in the lecture I watched/listened to.

I don't know the ins and outs of the Equiseq thing but I'm not going to be parting with my money until there's peer review. But just want to say that they advice I've received here has been invaluable to me in response to seeing it being called into question.

 

[TPO]

Nobody says that.

Sadly they do. Although it's usually vit e AND heavy rugging.

PSSM seems to be this year's equivalent of previous year's Kissing Spines and Ulcers.

FB groups are full of self diagnosed PSSM this year. Never mind testing, vets in any capacity are totally bypassed. Information from dubious internet sources is enough to diagnose these days and now every second horse has it ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Sadly they do. Although it's usually vit e AND heavy rugging.

I’ve suggested trialling both vit E and maybe heavy rugging on here, as that is what, out of the blue, worked for my mare. I had been on the point of returning to her breeder as she was so noughty. The change was miraculous.

I would not ever recommend that people routinely bypass their vets, but trialling management changes isn’t too wacky. I did inform the vet of the positive changes in her, and then we discussed biopsies etc. I always respect her opinion and keep her in the loop.

As for barefoot etc FB groups, I have learned to steer well clear of those .

 

[TPO]

I’ve suggested trialling both vit E and maybe heavy rugging on here, as that is what, out of the blue, worked for my mare. I had been on the point of returning to her breeder as she was so noughty. The change was miraculous.

I would not ever recommend that people routinely bypass their vets, but trialling management changes isn’t too wacky. I did inform the vet of the positive changes in her, and then we discussed biopsies etc. I always respect her opinion and keep her in the loop.

As for barefoot etc FB groups, I have learned to steer well clear of those .

That would be the common sense approach but it's not a flower that grows in everyone's garden ?

It's pretty scary how many internet experts (admittedly mainly on the book of face) there are not only diagnosing their own but others horses and giving questionable "treatments" when in some instances the horse needs a vet and in other instances the horse needs an owner that isnt a bandwagon jumper

 

[paddy555]

Sadly they do. Although it's usually vit e AND heavy rugging.

PSSM seems to be this year's equivalent of previous year's Kissing Spines and Ulcers.

FB groups are full of self diagnosed PSSM this year. Never mind testing, vets in any capacity are totally bypassed. Information from dubious internet sources is enough to diagnose these days and now every second horse has it ?

you've forgotten the importance of regular daily exercise which also stressed, don't confine to a box often gets a mention ie letting horse have a shelter and to wander, the effects of box rest, use an exercise sheet. Sometimes we even manage to extend our advice to a supplement/selenium, we mention the state of the muscles of the hind quarters. I normally add keep a diary and relate weather, exercise and rugging. We often mention the age of the horse and how when work starts the signs come to the fore. In fact we seem to be mentioning rather a lot of things. I often mention October, the month when it comes to the fore. Many suggest a blood test to see the muscle enzymes and to rule other problems out

As that covers much of the basic management regime I am not sure what else we can add. How do you manage your own PSSM horse? what have you found success with?

Many are self diagnosed because there is and has been no choice. Many don't want to muscle biopsy. I can see their point when at the end of the day it is a management problem so they may as well try and diet before an invasive procedure. PSSM1's are easy £35 and you have an answer, there is no validated test for PSSM2 except biopsy. So it is never mind testing. I am sure we would all test is there was a recognised test. Most would jump at the chance.

vets are far from bypassed but sadly many have little knowledge. I didn't bypass my vet. I spent around 3k at horse hospital trying to find the reason for my horse's problems with no success and no mention of PSSM. After 3 blood tests a couple of years later with a different vet who had no idea why the CK levels were doing what they did I asked her to contact specialists with some ideas as to which path forward we should follow. I believe it was Leahurst who pointed her down the PSSM route.

You may have just started to read about PSSM and that could be why it seems to be this years KS and ulcers. I started struggling and looking for answers for my horse in 2012. .

As for every second horse having it then, whilst I fear you exaggerate slightly, it has to be considered as there is a considerable knock on effect from hind end muscle problems to the rest of the ridden horse.

 

[SEL]

As for every 2nd horse getting a diagnosis.... I have 2 with a positive test for type 1 and a 3rd under the care of the vet for breathing difficulties. The vet giving the second opinion (who doesn't know me or my other 2 horses) has just said not to rule out a myopathy as a cause of the breathing problems. My vet apparently said this was an owner who'd be all over myopthay symptoms. I flatly refuse to have a hat trick, but that shows that they aren't uncommon we're just not that good at recognising them .