Muscle stiffness

[PapaverFollis]

I think it's a very complex picture and no use boiling it down to soundbites. I suspect many horses would benefit from PSSM management... especially the consistent work and the vitamin E. The keeping warm is questionable given general over-rugging issues. So perhaps people try management and it works and they say their horse has it. In some ways that's what I've done... except I've also had three very clear tying up episodes so I think I can diagnose with some certainty. If she struggled generally and she hadn't tied up I'd definitely have been doing other investigations.

I've been in touch with the vet each time The Beast has tied up. Each time the vet has been mildly interested at best, spectacularly unconcerned at worst. None of them wanted to come out and pull bloods and the only advice they offered was "remove hard feed" until I pointed out she wasn't getting any. It's been 2 years since I spoke to the vet about it though do maybe it's got better.

On the flip side the Facebook group is utterly insane. There was a video of a horse shivering with cold a while ago and more than half the comments were like "definitely tying up OMG"... suspect none of these people have actually witnessed a proper tie up...

 

[PapaverFollis]

And yeah I can't decide if it's tye up or tie up or tying or tieing. ?

 

[Sail_away]

Right, I've been rugging him in 200g for the last few days which has helped but he's still flinching initially when I touch his back. I've ordered vitamin E oil from equimins so that should be coming in the next few days. If it's going to make a difference how long will it take to make a noticeable change? Is it within a few days or does it have to build up?
The vet is out tomorrow to sedate him for clipping so I'll ask him to have a look at his back before he sedates. They're at the yard again on friday so will be able to do further investigations then if needed. I'm so glad we have him insured, he's been an expensive little sod this year.

 

[paddy555]

Right, I've been rugging him in 200g for the last few days which has helped but he's still flinching initially when I touch his back. I've ordered vitamin E oil from equimins so that should be coming in the next few days. If it's going to make a difference how long will it take to make a noticeable change? Is it within a few days or does it have to build up?
The vet is out tomorrow to sedate him for clipping so I'll ask him to have a look at his back before he sedates. They're at the yard again on friday so will be able to do further investigations then if needed. I'm so glad we have him insured, he's been an expensive little sod this year.

I found mine very flinchy when I touched the withers. This has now gone but flinchy has been mentioned a few times about these horses. 200g is not very thick for PSSM. Vit e, I got results within 36 hours, horse was just a little nicer, within a week were were going great guns. Don't build it up just go straight in at 10000iu. If you can do 5000iu
am and the same pm so much the better.
I don't clip anything on the back end, I leave the hair to keep him warm. If the insurance are going to pay I would blood test to rule anything else out and expect high CK and AST levels.

 

[Sail_away]

I found mine very flinchy when I touched the withers. This has now gone but flinchy has been mentioned a few times about these horses. 200g is not very thick for PSSM. Vit e, I got results within 36 hours, horse was just a little nicer, within a week were were going great guns. Don't build it up just go straight in at 10000iu. If you can do 5000iu
am and the same pm so much the better.
I don't clip anything on the back end, I leave the hair to keep him warm. If the insurance are going to pay I would blood test to rule anything else out and expect high CK and AST levels.

He's usually in pretty hard work so have been planning on doing a full clip - I'd like to take the bum off ideally but I'll ask to have his saddle area left, and then perhaps a blanket clip next time if we do get a pssm diagnosis. He's got a thick fleecy exercise sheet but I'll look around for a thicker lined one.
With the rugging - I think I'm just too used to under-rugging (he needs to lose some weight) that I'm struggling to get used to the idea of very thick rugs on him. I'll have to get some more liners, can only go up to 400g at the moment (and that's 150 more than he's ever needed!).
Insurance have actually been pretty good at paying out so I don't see why they wouldn't, I'll ask about getting bloods done on Friday. That's really encouraging about the vitamin E, and yes he gets two feeds so I'll spread it out. Thank you for answering so many questions!

 

[paddy555]

He's usually in pretty hard work so have been planning on doing a full clip - I'd like to take the bum off ideally but I'll ask to have his saddle area left, and then perhaps a blanket clip next time if we do get a pssm diagnosis. He's got a thick fleecy exercise sheet but I'll look around for a thicker lined one.
With the rugging - I think I'm just too used to under-rugging (he needs to lose some weight) that I'm struggling to get used to the idea of very thick rugs on him. I'll have to get some more liners, can only go up to 400g at the moment (and that's 150 more than he's ever needed!).
Insurance have actually been pretty good at paying out so I don't see why they wouldn't, I'll ask about getting bloods done on Friday. That's really encouraging about the vitamin E, and yes he gets two feeds so I'll spread it out. Thank you for answering so many questions!

no problem. Re the rugging, every PSSM horse is different. If one has a PSSM horse that thrives on rugging it can seem totally and utterly ridiculous to a person with an ordinary horse.
Good luck I hope something becomes obvious one way or another.

 

[Sail_away]

Back again with more questions (sorry)! The vet's opinion was that it was definitely muscular, he was sore mainly by his withers and behind the saddle - he suggested getting the saddler and the physio out and if they don't find anything then he can investigate further. I've already got the saddler and physio coming on Wednesday and Thursday respectively next week - admittedly I doubt saddle fit as he came with a rock hard, narrow saddle and that didn't cause as much muscular pain as there is now. But it will at least rule things out if nothing else. He's in 400g now which will hopefully be enough.
I'm trying to start the PSSM diet now on the basis that it will give us a head start if it is PSSM and won't harm him if it isn't - with the tri aminos, where do people get them and what should I be looking for? And how much should I be feeding daily (roughly)?

 

[SEL]

Back again with more questions (sorry)! The vet's opinion was that it was definitely muscular, he was sore mainly by his withers and behind the saddle - he suggested getting the saddler and the physio out and if they don't find anything then he can investigate further. I've already got the saddler and physio coming on Wednesday and Thursday respectively next week - admittedly I doubt saddle fit as he came with a rock hard, narrow saddle and that didn't cause as much muscular pain as there is now. But it will at least rule things out if nothing else. He's in 400g now which will hopefully be enough.
I'm trying to start the PSSM diet now on the basis that it will give us a head start if it is PSSM and won't harm him if it isn't - with the tri aminos, where do people get them and what should I be looking for? And how much should I be feeding daily (roughly)?

Progressive Earth are the only UK based company I've found that do just Tri Aminos. I've fed off their packet recommendations.

My mare (who does have type 1) responds really well to a pretty high dose of magnesium oxide when her muscles play up - especially at this time of the year when I think even the little grass she has access to is probably way out of whack with electrolytes or something. October is a challenging month for us.

Is there any chance he could have fallen in the field? I saw my other horse fall hard a few years ago and he was in a pretty bad way despite a tonne of danilon for a couple of months. My instructors horse did a sliding halt into a fence and really screwed up his SI area - that took months for the muscle soreness to reduce.

 

[paddy555]

Progressive Earth are the only UK based company I've found that do just Tri Aminos. I've fed off their packet recommendations.

My mare (who does have type 1) responds really well to a pretty high dose of magnesium oxide when her muscles play up - especially at this time of the year when I think even the little grass she has access to is probably way out of whack with electrolytes or something. October is a challenging month for us.

Is there any chance he could have fallen in the field? I saw my other horse fall hard a few years ago and he was in a pretty bad way despite a tonne of danilon for a couple of months. My instructors horse did a sliding halt into a fence and really screwed up his SI area - that took months for the muscle soreness to reduce.

I just tried to get the pro earth link for you but it says site under maintenance so I think you will have to try later. Search for pro 3 amino and come back if you can't find it.
Presumably you are using a supplement with selenium in it.

ETA just wanted to add that when I was in your position I did the saddle fit route and the chiro route. Chiro found thing wrong but even though he corrected them the problems came back. Saddle fit was a nightmare with muscle wastage below the withers. Once resolved he is now the easiest horse to fit a saddle on and all the muscle wastage below withers and over his back just went.
Just trying to say it is all linked.

 

[paddy555]

Is there any chance he could have fallen in the field? I saw my other horse fall hard a few years ago and he was in a pretty bad way despite a tonne of danilon for a couple of months. My instructors horse did a sliding halt into a fence and really screwed up his SI area - that took months for the muscle soreness to reduce.

there is of course the possibility you have a muscle problem but not a PSSM one. Have you already tried a bute/danilon trial say for a week, eliminate pain and inflammation and see if you are left with an improved horse or if it makes no difference?

 

[Sail_away]

SEL - I'm sure he does occasionally - one of their fields is on a hill, I'll call him and watch in horror as he comes pelting down it then slams on the brakes two strides before me
The reason I haven't been thinking a field injury is that it's getting worse and not better - he wasn't as sore by the withers when the physio came for example. But perhaps he is compensating. I think I'm looking at pssm as I've done what I can for the other possible causes - plus him being so cold.
Thank you both for the feeding recommendations - looking at pro earth it's not hugely expensive so I'll get that and their MgO as a 'just in case'. He does have selenium in his balancer but only small amounts, is that another thing I should be looking at?

 

[Sail_away]

there is of course the possibility you have a muscle problem but not a PSSM one. Have you already tried a bute/danilon trial say for a week, eliminate pain and inflammation and see if you are left with an improved horse or if it makes no difference?

No I haven’t - it’s worth a try and I think I’ve got at least a few days worth of bute. On the other hand I don’t want to introduce too many new things at once and then be left with singling out what had an affect.

 

[paddy555]

No I haven’t - it’s worth a try and I think I’ve got at least a few days worth of bute. On the other hand I don’t want to introduce too many new things at once and then be left with singling out what had an affect.

Delaying vit e for a few more days won't hurt. If you get him onto bute then after a couple of days you will have some indication which way it is going. Could be worth a try??

 

[SEL]

Delaying vit e for a few more days won't hurt. If you get him onto bute then after a couple of days you will have some indication which way it is going. Could be worth a try??

Especially as vets tend to recommend a danilon trial even when they know your horse has PSSM and you have elevated CK and AST

He does have selenium in his balancer but only small amounts, is that another thing I should be looking at?

If its in the balancer I wouldn't add extra (although balancers themselves appear to be problematic for some PSSM horses - welcome to the supplement rabbit hole). Most places in the UK have soil deficient in selenium but there are some exceptions and it is toxic if overloaded. Down the line if you don't see improvements then its worth asking local farmers in the area what the selenium levels in the soil are like ditto the iron levels - or test via soil sample. For now though I'd just follow your current plan and see how you go. Its hard to sit on your hands and not throw the kitchen sink at them when they're not right.

 

[Sail_away]

You’re exactly right SEL I’m worrying too much and chucking everything at him when I really need to slow down!
With the Bute trial - he was bad enough to ride tonight that I’m asking the vet to have another look tomorrow and I’ll push them to take bloods or at least get him some bute. I’ve got a few sachets but not enough for a whole week. In reality I know he was just very slightly stiff but when you ride them so often it’s hard to push through when they’re struggling.

 

[Sail_away]

Okay, we had the vet out again on Friday. There was still pain over his back but they couldn’t see any obvious lameness or stiffness when ridden. So they took bloods and he’s been on bute over the weekend. He was much better on bute - sort of 95% okay instead of 70%.
I got the blood results today which showed inflammation of the liver but nothing else unusual - no idea what’s caused it but the vet wasn’t worried. They suggested putting him on vitamin E for a couple of weeks which he is fortunately already on and then taking more bloods.
However that doesn’t help us with the back pain. The physio is out again on Thursday so I’ll ask her thoughts on it. I just don’t know where we go from here. We could nerve block his hinds but he’s very needle phobic so I doubt we’ll get very far. My gut instinct is that it’s his back - he has a full range of motion in his back legs, and no sudden preference for one rein, he just can’t seem to carry it over his back to sit and push.

 

[SEL]

Okay, we had the vet out again on Friday. There was still pain over his back but they couldn’t see any obvious lameness or stiffness when ridden. So they took bloods and he’s been on bute over the weekend. He was much better on bute - sort of 95% okay instead of 70%.
I got the blood results today which showed inflammation of the liver but nothing else unusual - no idea what’s caused it but the vet wasn’t worried. They suggested putting him on vitamin E for a couple of weeks which he is fortunately already on and then taking more bloods.
However that doesn’t help us with the back pain. The physio is out again on Thursday so I’ll ask her thoughts on it. I just don’t know where we go from here. We could nerve block his hinds but he’s very needle phobic so I doubt we’ll get very far. My gut instinct is that it’s his back - he has a full range of motion in his back legs, and no sudden preference for one rein, he just can’t seem to carry it over his back to sit and push.

It could well be related to the liver. I couldn't understand why my PSSM horse was sore and cranky a few years ago and ran bloods expecting the usual problem muscle enzymes - hugely elevated GGT instead. No idea what caused it and took forever to come down (nearly a year and a yard move). Milk Thistle was helpful.

 

[Sail_away]

So a lesson for me in not jumping to conclusions... it was not pssm. It wasn’t even back related (directly). It’s mild hock arthritis which he’d been compensating for by tensing up his back muscles to support himself. It was too minor to see apart from the back pain and general performance loss. He was treated immediately after we got the x rays with steroid injections in the hocks and his first cartrophen injection too. The vet was really positive about his work moving forward, he said that it was very mild and would expect him to return to full work with no limitations. We also have a sedated physio treatment next week to help the sore back muscles along. And then after that it’s back to work for him with no more excuses! This is his third major illness/injury this year so I’m really hoping it’s the last. Though if you’d all cross your fingers that his liver is no longer inflamed (check-up bloods done today as well) that would be much appreciated...