my boys x-rays...

[cptrayes]

I have not caught all of your story, but if there is some suggestion that a trimmer, however trained, lamed your horse with a trim then I would have to say, looking at the photos and the xrays, that your horse lookos as if it has been an ongoing low grade laminitic for a long time (from all the wavy event lines, the flat soles and the bruises) and that any trim that appeared to make him unsound simply exposed a problem that he had all along.

 

[cptrayes]

ok maybe not 2 days training.. but they could off helped prevent this happening by keeping the toe's short.. and lowering the heels...

Fast heel growth is frequently a laminitic response, adding weight to my post above.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Cptrayes things my thinking too. Regardless of trim which can't comment on as no before pics def signs of lami so would go with this over trimming being the main issue. X

 

[tango'smum]

this is an old post with pics off his feet..... first ones after the trimmers trim and the next ones a week after trimmers trim....
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=538856

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Personally I would say ur main issue is the fact that your horse has cushings and will more than likely b more prone to lami. The trimmed could have taken.more flare off and taken the toe back slightly but she is better to b cautious than take off too much!!! The trim could b a little better but it's not that bad and it takes.time to correct any issues. I am very minimalistic on my first trim so I can balance foot then go back and c the horses wear pattern etc song can trim to their needs. I can always take more off but I can't put it back on!! I think ur vet Is very judgmental to blame the trimmer based on those photos unless the foot was a lot worse than this when vet saw it trim wise? If u have a metabolic issue such as crushings u might always b battling with the feet and flat soles.more prone to frog infection and lami leading to weak feet and rotated pedal bones!!

I.also think that there would b potential that the horse doesn't seem lame now because it may b lame in all 4 feet or.at least both front feet.

I can only make comments based on info given and pictures i have seen. I do not mean to offend.
X

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Also would swap hayledge for soaked hay and include a vit and min sup inc vit c and mag. This should help.x

 

[cptrayes]

this is an old post with pics off his feet..... first ones after the trimmers trim and the next ones a week after trimmers trim....
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=538856

The trimmer has taken the toe out of contact with the floor. Removing the flare is purely cosmetic. I can't see anything wrong with the heel trim from the sole shot, s/he'd have been risking meeting live tissue and/or excessive frog pressure to take them lower. A farrier may take that risk but few trimmers would, because if they were to draw blood they could be prosecuted, whereas for a farrier it would just be an unfortunate accident.

I do not think it was the trim that caused your horse's problems. He is a Cushings horse with long term ongoing laminitic issues and the lameness is far more likely to be related to spring grass than to the trim you have pictured.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Well said Cptrayes. X

 

[be positive]

I think the point with this pony is not who trimmed or what their qualification, if any, but that as a low grade chronic laminitic he needed to have his toes kept short to stabilise the condition. The old photos show a foot that was not trimmed appropriately, this would not have caused the lameness but would probably have extended his recovery time at the very least.

Laminitics need fairly aggressive trimming at times and an experienced trimmer to do this, being conservative is not always the best course of action, hopefully this pony is now on the road to full recovery.

Regarding feeding for growth, yes they often do grow very quickly in response to the laminitis, this enables new horn to develop and a whole new foot in a fairly short time, the faster the growth the more trimming required but the sooner the recovery, my pony has very hard fast growing feet that are trimmed every 4 weeks and this has speeded up his recovery so he is now sound and back in work with very well balanced feet.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

I don't think that the trim is that poor. It would have been slightly more aggressive but they have been on the following trim.
The feet will not recover until the underlying issue has been resolved!! Ie cushings!
Just my humble experienced and qualified opinion.
Most importantly.can change the past but can learn from it (hopefully in an appropriately informed.manner). Hope horse is ok. X

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I believe the 2 day course is to raise owners awareness and provide enough info for them to do a maintenance trim on their own horse only between EP visits!! I also would not let sum one with only 2 days training do my horses feet. However I wiuld b extremely cautious about letting a farrier near my horses feet either!! I would always find a qualified EP if I was unable to do it myself.

Can I just ask why not a farrier, my horses are not shod but trimmed by my farrier. One of them has major problems but thats another story and nothing to do with the farrier but the other three have great feet and the farrier does a great job. He is in full agreeance with bare foot horses if possible.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Because I haven't found a farrier yet (mine or other peoples horses) that trims a barefoot horse correctly. I may just have been very un lucky but my horses were foot sore for 2 days after a farrier trim but were jumping the same day as an EP trim. This lead me to look into trimming in far more detail and become fully trained myself through an appropriate course. I also have relevant degree.

Keep hold of a good farrier if u have found one. I am not saying they are all the same (good and bad in both professions) but i prefer the holistic approach of an EP anyday over a farrier.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Ps would genuinely b interested to c peoples pics of good farrier barefoot trims. Thanks.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

My vet has trained as a bare foot trimmer and had trimmed my horses for many years but he suffers with a back problem and suggested the farrier to me as he is very sympathetic to the bare foot brigade as he affectionately calls you lot, so I think he does a good job of them. He actually has more bare foot horses on his books than shod ones. I am obviously lucky. How long does it take to train for this sort of thing and can it be done around a full time job?

 

[be positive]

Can I just ask why not a farrier, my horses are not shod but trimmed by my farrier. One of them has major problems but thats another story and nothing to do with the farrier but the other three have great feet and the farrier does a great job. He is in full agreeance with bare foot horses if possible.

My farrier is also happy for horses to be unshod and trimmed appropriately, they also have good feet.

The problem is that there are good farriers and trimmers with experience that really care about the job they do and not such good ones to whom it is a job that pays the bills, it is not about the qualification but experience, knowledge and the desire to get the horses feet right. Finding the right person is not always easy for the owners whether they choose a farrier or trimmer it is still to some degree luck if you get a good one or not, the damage may be done before it is realised the wrong person was employed.
A newly qualified or inexperienced person is probably not going to do as good a job as someone that has dealt with numerous similar cases and has the knowledge that comes with it, a chronic laminitic needs that experience it is not fair on the pony otherwise , I know they need to gain the experience from somewhere but maybe working alongside an older person who deals with problems would be the way forward.

 

[Oberon]

My vet has trained as a bare foot trimmer and had trimmed my horses for many years but he suffers with a back problem and suggested the farrier to me as he is very sympathetic to the bare foot brigade as he affectionately calls you lot, so I think he does a good job of them. He actually has more bare foot horses on his books than shod ones. I am obviously lucky. How long does it take to train for this sort of thing and can it be done around a full time job?

Training takes around two years and can be done around a job.

Courses such as the ESA http://www.equinesciencesacademy.com/esa_00006b.htm can be done at your own pace and finances.

There are great farriers who do a great trim out there. It's not all black and white.

It's unfortunate when a hoof care professional (farrier or trimmer) is publicly blamed soley for a horse's ongoing pathology. It would be nice if it's that simple but sadly, in cases of chronic metabolic diseases it really cannot be down to one aspect or one person's 'fault'.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

My farrier is well past retirement age and that worries me although he as fit as a fiddle!

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Thankyou Oberon that is very helpful information.

 

[Oberon]

My farrier is well past retirement age and that worries me although he as fit as a fiddle!

He can supervise you trimming from his wheelchair

 

[Crugeran Celt]

He can supervise you trimming from his wheelchair

He'd be horrified that you suggest he will ever need a wheelchair, he thinks he will be like Tommy Cooper and die doing his job, and still doing it better than the 'upstarts'! Hope its not at my stables though!

 

[tango'smum]

these are a week before he became barefoot.... yes i know cushings and having laminitis didnt help... but nothing was done to correct it... he feet were much better when he had shoes on and the farrier was dealing with him.. i have now chose to go back to a farrier and poss shoes...

 

[cptrayes]

Tango you don't seem to have fully taken on board that Cushings is likely to be causing constant foot problems for your horse, and it is unlikely that one trim that has caused his issues. He's had multiple bouts of acute laminitis, yes, but the rest of the time his feet are still under stress from the disease, as you can see from the multiple growth ringsm and from teh pedal bone rotation, which does not result from a trim, poor or not. Shoes may well mask this ongoing discomfort, and they might be the best option for you both.

I am not surprised that he was sounder in those shoes. His feet seem long and the shoes are very thick for their size, keeping his sensitive soles well out of contact with the floor.

I have known Cushings ponies that have had to be kept rib-showing thin, with no grass ever, in order to keep them sound. Yours may be one of those.

 

[LucyPriory]

these are a week before he became barefoot.... yes i know cushings and having laminitis didnt help... but nothing was done to correct it... he feet were much better when he had shoes on and the farrier was dealing with him.. i have now chose to go back to a farrier and poss shoes...

OP - has anyone talked you through the very obvious problems with these shod feet - which to be honest are quite severe?

CPtrayes - quite agree with you, untreated Cushings can have devasting, negative consequences for hooves. But if the Cushings is managed well, the horse can have almost beautiful feet that can be very serviceable and bare and a dirt lot is not necessarily a requirement.

 

[Wagtail]

I would be very reluctant to shoe a horse that has repeated bouts of lami, as it may mask signs of the disease which will delay essential action being taken.

 

[tango'smum]

OP - has anyone talked you through the very obvious problems with these shod feet - which to be honest are quite severe?

CPtrayes - quite agree with you, untreated Cushings can have devasting, negative consequences for hooves. But if the Cushings is managed well, the horse can have almost beautiful feet that can be very serviceable and bare and a dirt lot is not necessarily a requirement.

he on meds for cushings, 1 prascend a day and has been since october.. bloods done and his levels are good.. from 245 to 26.... so hes well managed... he was being trimmed every 4 weeks since december.... he been on a bare paddock, although hes been in for 4 weeks now... but am going to start putting him out.... what problems with the shod feet? yes hes got very slight seperation..

 

[tango'smum]

Tango you don't seem to have fully taken on board that Cushings is likely to be causing constant foot problems for your horse, and it is unlikely that one trim that has caused his issues. He's had multiple bouts of acute laminitis, yes, but the rest of the time his feet are still under stress from the disease, as you can see from the multiple growth ringsm and from teh pedal bone rotation, which does not result from a trim, poor or not. Shoes may well mask this ongoing discomfort, and they might be the best option for you both.

I am not surprised that he was sounder in those shoes. His feet seem long and the shoes are very thick for their size, keeping his sensitive soles well out of contact with the floor.

I have known Cushings ponies that have had to be kept rib-showing thin, with no grass ever, in order to keep them sound. Yours may be one of those.

i KNOW the trim didnt cause the problems.. but NOTHING was done to correct it....

 

[LucyPriory]

he on meds for cushings, 1 prascend a day and has been since october.. bloods done and his levels are good.. from 245 to 26.... so hes well managed... he was being trimmed every 4 weeks since december.... he been on a bare paddock, although hes been in for 4 weeks now... but am going to start putting him out.... what problems with the shod feet? yes hes got very slight seperation..

The photos are too small to give a detailed point of view, but even from these thumbnails you can see that the outer hoof wall has been very heavily rasped - removing the event lines from the lower half of the foot. Above this rasping there are very heavy event lines.

The shape of the foot doesn't look right - but I need a bigger photo and it looks suspiciously like there is lamellar wedge poking out over the toe of the shoe - again I'd need a bigger more detailed photo to be sure.

 

[tango'smum]

The photos are too small to give a detailed point of view, but even from these thumbnails you can see that the outer hoof wall has been very heavily rasped - removing the event lines from the lower half of the foot. Above this rasping there are very heavy event lines.

The shape of the foot doesn't look right - but I need a bigger photo and it looks suspiciously like there is lamellar wedge poking out over the toe of the shoe - again I'd need a bigger more detailed photo to be sure.

yes as i said there is some seperation. but when his shoes came off, nothing was done to keep the toes short, as i said i will stick to a farrier and maybe put shoes back on in a few months...see how things go, repairing his feet....

 

[Archie73]

OP, Im no expert but if I were to describe the shod pics it looks like his feet have been crammed into shoes and the actual hoof walls look pretty bad :-s Shoes may well be the best option as the diet management and exercise regime required to keep your horse with out shoes is really really hard work. I suggest correctly fitted boots and pads for the interim until (if) the hoof wall is able to grow enough to take nails. I would definitely change from that farrier though especially if they did not discuss the event lines they had to keep filing out. , perhaps ask the treating vet to re advise. I will be interested to hear how you get on. Best of luck to you and horsey

 

[tango'smum]

OP, Im no expert but if I were to describe the shod pics it looks like his feet have been crammed into shoes and the actual hoof walls look pretty bad :-s Shoes may well be the best option as the diet management and exercise regime required to keep your horse with out shoes is really really hard work. I suggest correctly fitted boots and pads for the interim until (if) the hoof wall is able to grow enough to take nails. I would definitely change from that farrier though especially if they did not discuss the event lines they had to keep filing out. , perhaps ask the treating vet to re advise. I will be interested to hear how you get on. Best of luck to you and horsey

thankyou.. its not the same farrier... vet said boots and pads are only usfull in acute laminitis hes got cronic.. so passed the boots and pads working....