My dogs are becoming socially unacceptable

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Oneofthepack

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As some of you know I have 5 rescue dogs, 4 lurchers and a collie, and I can't always control them when they decide to go after another dog. I know lots of you will say it's not acceptable to allow them to run at other dogs and I agree so I really need advice as to what to do. I don't want to have to keep them on a lead as it's no fun for them and it's not what I want for them. It happened again today and the woman was so cross, shouting 'EVERY f....... time' (it's only happened to her retriever twice and she's far more upset than the dog is!)

Mostly they are pretty good and we walk round the fields with loads of people and other dogs that we don't have problems with but there are a few that they consistantly go for to the extent that I now muzzle the 2 offenders, which is fine but I still don't like them being so aggressive.

The dogs they go for are 3 single dogs, a mixture of dogs and bitches, a mixture of submissive and dominant and the only thing that ties them together is the owners put them on a lead when another dog approaches. I think this makes it worse but the owners refuse to walk with us off lead, which I have tried with success before. 2 labs that we had to avoid are now best mates as the owner was willing to work with us and we gradually got them over it.

I did have a behaviourist visit a while back to help with recall and she said dog aggression is very hard to stop particularly when you have a pack. Any thoughts or other suggestions?
 
If they are aggressive they need to be on leash.

I would get the offending dogs into a training program for fearful/ aggressive dogs (depending on where you are i can recommend some)

And i would walk the offending dogs alone.

Work on recall on a long line with all of your dogs.
 
I would try and walk them separately if they are becoming too much for you, and well done for muzzling the 'main offenders' :o

Sorry, but I will be frank, that would be my idea of a nightmare to run into :o I've put so much work into my dog but a load of dogs charging up to him would freak him out and no, I will not allow him to run off leash just in case, he is capable of doing a lot of damage and I do not want to risk it.

He is on the lead anywhere unfenced or where we are likely to meet other dogs and I can't say he doesn't have a 'fun' life, look at my siggy :)

It's not something that will cure itself, you will have to get into a training programme and do tonnes of practise on recall - do you use a whistle? Reward the dogs EVERY time they come to you? Even in the house? Hand feeding? Anything like that?
 
^^ What they said. You must muzzle the aggressive ones and keep them leashed. What happens if you come across small kids with the dogs yours attack?

You would be my worst nightmare, too. I've worked really hard to get my adult dog over his fear of other dogs and if he were attacked, I'd swear at you too. I've finally got one lab owner to put her nasty dog on the lead when she hears me or sees Brig.

I see your point re working with you and it ends up fine, but I have three of my own dogs, a full time stressful job, the horse and frankly, no time or inclination to help you train your dogs. I'd find it hard to see past the fact that you can't control your dogs and that they were aggressive.

It's very unfair to let your aggressive dogs ruin other people's walks with their non-aggressive dogs. As you say, they're a pack and therefore more difficult to control. If you can, walk them separately.
 
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I have 2 rescues, brother & sister about 2 years old and would find it impossible to train them without training them separately. Darcy has nervous agression so she goes to dog training and it takes about 5mins to settle her. Ive also started to walk her up the road where we are likely to meet other dogs and am getting her sitting and looking at me whilst dogs go past. She is well rewarded with tasty sausages and there is a marked improvement in her behaviour. I will always be on her case but would be angry if a pack of 4-5 dogs descended on her causing her to flip out and undoing all that Ive worked for. She came to me just under a year ago with this problem and I doubt she will ever be truly trustworthy. I realize there is only a short step toher attacking other dogs, at the moment she is barking at them telling them to keep away. Its quite possible in the past she encountered someone with dogs similar to yours and your dogs might have had the same in the past.

I think what Im saying is the onus is on us to protect other dogs from our dogs behaviour and I think the woman you met was quite reticent compared to me in that situation.:(
 
Do they run at the dogs from a distance? Can you not recall them when you see them ahead and put them on a lead? Or are they gone by then?

There is one dog locally that goes for Harley. I have had a right go at her too (she doesn't say a word, eye contact just keeps walking waiting for her dog to follow). I put Harley on a lead as soon as I see it and expect her to do the same. I have a sensitive dog and it really effects him when dogs are antisocial like that.

at least you know your dogs are causing a problem (unlike the lady I know) and I would suggest doing something before someone calls the dog warden.
 
I have one rescue dog who has been very aggressive to other dogs since she was a pup (she was taken from her mother when she was 2 weeks old, apparently, then abandoned 2 weeks later, so I can't blame her entirely!). We have seen behaviourists, worked very hard on training, but we just can't stop her. It's a Jekyll and Hyde situation. She's absolutely sweet until she sees another dog and she grows a forked tail and trident and tears after them hackles up. She never actually bites, but certainly looks like she's going to. She's only whippet-sized, but it isn't right for her to terrify other dogs like this, 99% of whom are friendly. (btw, all those with friendly dogs, if you see a dog on a lead that is clearly aggressive, please could you possibly put your own lovely dog on a lead so that the angry one doesn't get baited!)

I always walk mine on a lead if there's any chance we might see another dog. She hates her muzzle - she'd prefer to be on the lead than free with a muzzle. Anyway, she's quite terrifying enough with a muzzle! I don't believe leads make for a dull life - they get to stay close to their master which has got to be good, right?

If anyone can advise me, great, but I'm basically saying to the original poster that if you've got a dog that is not trustworthy with other dogs, it's not worth letting it off a lead unless in your own garden.
 
OP, really not getting at you, at all (pleased to see you back :) ) but say one of yours ran up to mine, got right in his face, mouthing off, and he bit her?
He's never done that, but he has snarled and used teeth to tell rude dogs to get out of his face.
I don't keep him away from dogs altogether (I used to, it made him worse) but if I see a certain type of body language, I will intervene and 'protect' him (he used to think he had to protect me, very stressful for him) and if the dogs are polite, then fine :)
 
I wish people would only post replies if they can answer the question! As I said keeping them on the lead is no fun for them. Those of of you who keep their dogs on the lead that's fine for you but not for mine. The 'fun' Cavecanems dog is having in the siggy is off lead so what was the point there? And Cinnamontoast, as a doglover, why would you not spare 15 minutes of your day to walk with someone who was having trouble with their dogs if you knew it would solve the problem? It's something I'm always happy to do and I'm also really quite busy too.

As I said my dogs recall is 100% unless they see one of these dogs so more training isn't appropriate, the owners are far more bothered about their dogs being got at than the dogs and it's only 2 of the dogs that have a go not all 5.

I have worked at getting the aggression under control but then we have an incident, like 4 days ago a neighbours dog jumped over the fence as we walked past and attacked Liz, one of the main offenders, and we go back to square one.

I was hoping for more constructive help but thanks for all the comments...And this is why I don't come on here so much any more!
 
Oooookay... :rolleyes:

My dog doesn't have a 100% recall around other dogs either, which is why I'm still training him. You will have heard of the concept, I'm sure. He is also never aggressive... just over-enthusiastically playful. But we are still working on it, because it is a problem. You don't have a 100% recall either, because if you did, you would not be terrorising the neighbourhood with your out of control pack!

Better just hope no one reports you under the DDA for having out of control dogs in a public place. Have to tell you, if your dogs went for mine, especially more than once, a call would be made to the dog warden.
 
Wooooah...I did suggest training the dogs to a whistle, hand feeding from your pockets, rewarding each and every recall they do......and I mean the big grey dog in my sig, he is on a lead in those pics.

I would certainly walk with you and work with you, but if these people are not willing to, then working on the recall is the obvious option, apart from that and getting a trainer out, I don't know what other advice there is, other than keeping those two on the lead when you know you are going to run into the problem dogs.
 
Spudlet said:
Oooookay... :rolleyes:

My dog doesn't have a 100% recall around other dogs either, which is why I'm still training him. You will have heard of the concept, I'm sure. He is also never aggressive... just over-enthusiastically playful. But we are still working on it, because it is a problem. You don't have a 100% recall either, because if you did, you would not be terrorising the neighbourhood with your out of control pack!

Better just hope no one reports you under the DDA for having out of control dogs in a public place. Have to tell you, if your dogs went for mine, especially more than once, a call would be made to the dog warden.
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You sarcastic little wotsit! Really is there any need for this? I asked for CONSTRUCTIVE help not sarky comments like 'You will have heard of the concept, I'm sure'. My dogs are really well trained, people constantly comment on how good they are when I walk all 5, they are friendly and well adjusted and I DON'T terrorise the neighbourhood with my pack of out of control dogs! It's 2 dogs who have taken a dislike to 3 out of possibly 30 dogs that walk the fields. And I said I have 100% recall until they see these 3 dogs so please read fully before you post this pointless drivel!

I have been reported to the dog warden, which is why I was hoping a forum for doggy people would come up with more suggestions and things they might have learned from experience rather than criticism.
 
People have posted advice, which you have scorned, so if you don't like it love, that's tough, frankly.

Have you tried magic spells? Voodoo? There are no quick fixes you see - just a lot of hard work and training. But that doesn't seem to suit you...
 
Im at a loss what to suggest, I tried to show you what I was doing with mine and first and foremost I think I am a responsible dog owner. Perhaps if you looked at it from the point of view of the other dog owner you would have a different opinion.

Imagine you are happy walking your 5 dogs and 10dogs descended on them and started to be agressive I bet you would be more than miffed. What happens when they meet a small dog like a Peke or Chi the outcome might not be a happy one and there would be no going back. You are implying if they let their dogs off lead they would be fine but can you be absolutely sure.

I understand you want your dogs off lead to have fun but this can never be at someone elses expense.
 
Guys, it's Friday night, let's chill out, have a glass of vino, cuddle our dogs (or your baby Land Shark, if you're me :p)

And tomorrow we can ALL pull our wellies and waterproofs on (again, probably if you're me and you're here and it hasn't stopped raining for a week) arm ourselves with long lines, chicken wings (crack cocaine for dogs) a whistle and our cheeriest faces and work on some recall - deal?! Anyone?!
 
CaveCanem said:
Wooooah...I did suggest training the dogs to a whistle, hand feeding from your pockets, rewarding each and every recall they do......and I mean the big grey dog in my sig, he is on a lead in those pics.

I would certainly walk with you and work with you, but if these people are not willing to, then working on the recall is the obvious option, apart from that and getting a trainer out, I don't know what other advice there is, other than keeping those two on the lead when you know you are going to run into the problem dogs.
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Sorry, yes I do practice recall and they're brilliant, but Liz had a bad start and was attacked by a friends collie while we were walking and ever since she goes in first. We don't have a problem with those people who have just let the dogs be dogs and sort it out, no blood has ever been spilled and they all play together really nicely now but it doesn't stop her going for the other 3 who's owners rush to put them on the lead. I don't know how it is everywhere else but round here 98% of people walk off lead and it's not a problem. We all know each other as it's a small village and it's a social outing when we all get together and walk the fields with our dogs running and playing.

I'm loathe to spoil their fun and the doggy interaction because of 3 dogs that we might meet once a fortnight but of no one has any experience then fine, just don't be so judgemental everyone! Not you CC!
 
I'm just going straight for the crack-cocaine if it's all the same to you lot - for me, that is:D

And I apologise for my sarcasm. I have had a hellish week, topped off by some truly distressing news this afternoon, but I don't think any of you lot are to blame for that.:o
 
CC Im cooking more sausages as I speak more walking up and down the road tomorrow. Im sure the locals are wondering what Im up to the old bat has finally lost it.:D

I am drinking Crabbies ginger beer which Im rather fond of , its slightly alcoholic but cheered by the fact most of the fields are cut for silage so no more wet trousers.
 
OOTP, I do see your point about 'letting dogs be dogs' I have seen a lot of skirmishes which would have been easily sorted out and which humans have made worse by over-reacting.

But being a hypocrite, with my adult dog, he is very sensitive, easily set back and I do not want to take the chance in terms of his capability to do harm, he is taller than me when he stands up and is part donkey :o :o :o

But imagine if you were talking about two Rotts, Dobes, GSDs, rather than skinnydogs, you can see why some people would be wary?

I'm orf to spend some time with the neglected, tutting OH, laters!
 
Hmm, you agree that its not acceptable for them to run after other dogs, so I think you really will have to consider some of the advice offered, e.g. keeping them on leads or walking the 2 offenders separately. Just imagine if it was a pack of 5 GSDs chasing dogs, can you imagine the outcry, I bet there would be reports in the papers the lot, you are actually lucky yours are not seen as "dangerous" breeds in some peoples eyes.
My younger bitch can be a bit mouthy round certain other dogs (it is breed/colour specific with her), I just do my level best to make sure she is always on lead where I am likely to run into other dogs, makes life far easier.
The only other constructive advise I can offer is to take them to a training class and really work on their socialisation and recall amongst other dogs.
 
OP, I have a pack too, and its not easy walking a pack, if I need to do training (which is a frequent commitment with so many) then I have to take the individual dogs out to work on the issue, or sometimes in pairs. I do however walk all together everyday and also have a dog aggressive dog, she winds up my fear aggressive dog and then I could be in all sorts of bother. If my dogs EVER ran up to someone elses aggressively I would be mortified and think that the owners of these dogs are within their rights to be mardy with you. So it goes like this, aggressive dog is on lead whenever other dogs are around, yep she gets offlead time, yep shes happy but shes not offlead around new dogs unless there is an opportunity to sensibley introduce everyone first. I have one friendly dog much like spudlets with little recall around other dogs, he too stays on a longline around others unless a time of controlled play is on cards, I cant have him running up to every dog he sees, one day he could loose half his face running up to a dog on lead and his 'siblings' would then most likely kill the offending dog! ;) The dog friendly with recall spends most walk off lead and even fear aggressive dog with recall is mostly offlead but 100% recall is vital! So recall training is your way forward, the offenders MUST come back to you under any circumstance. And if you really dont want any leads ever then train them so well that you can recall to heal in any circumstance so you can amble past with them still off lead and then release them when past the other dogs. (I do this with fear agressive dog or I would be in a right old pickle with so many leads!)
 
Spudlet said:
People have posted advice, which you have scorned, so if you don't like it love, that's tough, frankly.

Have you tried magic spells? Voodoo? There are no quick fixes you see - just a lot of hard work and training. But that doesn't seem to suit you...
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Don't think I've come across you before even tho you are an 'old nag' but you really are an arse!

I haven't scorned anything! I asked for help to stop them be aggressive, people posted saying I had to keep them on a lead which was not what I wanted, I was hoping for someone who had overcome the problem and come out the other side with a well balanced dog to come forward.

I've said I've trained them, I've said I've had a behaviourist in, I've said I've worked with other people to help them, and got other people to work with me to help my dogs.........
thanks to all the people who have posted what they thought might be helpful in a pleasant way, it's the sarky nasty stuff thats out of order, not necessary and pointless.
 
Vizslak said:
I do however walk all together everyday and also have a dog aggressive dog, she winds up my fear aggressive dog and then I could be in all sorts of bother. )
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Can you tell the difference between dog aggression and fear aggression? I think Liz is fear aggressive but Jesse has joined in thinking she's being dog aggressive and thinks he'll have a go too and he doesn't ever seem nervous round dogs like Liz does so I think he's dog aggressive. When she goes it's the same as when she goes after a rabbit and not many people I know could stop a lurcher in full flight after prey so I'm not sure that her recall is the problem. Would the answer be to get Liz calmer with other dogs so she wouldn't go? How might I start that?
 
CaveCanem said:
OOTP, I do see your point about 'letting dogs be dogs' I have seen a lot of skirmishes which would have been easily sorted out and which humans have made worse by over-reacting.
QUOTE]

Thanks CC for making me feel not quite such a numpty dog owner! I can totally understand why people don't like my dogs rushing theirs, it makes me fume and I could kick their backsides so I was hoping someone would be nice and help. Think I might crawl back under my rock! Hope you and OH have a happy evening x
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I wouldn't have said it was necessary to have them on a lead ALL the time. You say you walk in fields, can you not see the dogs in the distance and be able to recall yours before they clock on? I know what it is like as Harley chases bikes, so walking in woods etc where you can't see what's 100m ahead is annoying, but luckily I don't meet many bikes there. But when I do see a bike a call Harley to heel and then focus him on me while the offending (;) ) object goes past.

Would that be doable?

I wouldn't be willing to walk Harley with a pack of dogs that had had a go at him, sorry. He is sensitive and when he was younger the dog I mentioned earlier had a go at him and I had a real job getting his confidence back up with dogs and not to bolt off it a dog so much as barked....
 
Sorry but what are you - nuts? What happens when your darling aggressive MUZZLED (so can not defend itself) dog runs up to another dog- who's owner has done the responsible thing and put it on the lead- and the on lead dog has a serious go at yours, causing damage? who would be doing the swearing then- you i imagine?

Why is keeping it on a long line not an option? Becasue you think its "nicey nicey" for your dog to be off lead? how odd that you would rather risk it having its throat ripped out, than it spending time on a long line

Feel free to slate me as a novice dog owner but it is your kind of dog management that is doing eff all to help my dog reactive rescue.
 
My fear aggressive dog would not run up to another and pitch into it. My dog aggressive dog would if given the chance. The dog aggressive dog (this is becoming a mouthful) I do believe is aggressive due to 'insecurity' and totally rubbish social skills but shes not fearful of other dogs in the same way my fear agressive one is. I'm no behaviourist so possibley my definition of their behaviours is not correct. Liz sounds very similar to my dog aggressive dog. She will go full hunting pace into another dog. Mine is improved with lots of contact with others on a regular basis but ultimately I would never 100% trust her unmuzzled and off lead around new dogs out walking, she has to be properly introduced to dogs to be trustworthy around them, if she sees one in the distance that isnt a dog she knows she will hunt it as she would any other animal. I have to be VERY VERY firm with her to get her focus away from another dog when in the pack, shes much better alone. If you are determined to keep this dog offlead around others you need to find another trainer, preferably one with a very 'no-nonsense' attitude to training.
 
I think the problem is you have to break the pattern by putting them on a lead. It doesn't have to be permanent or forever, just for a while and it will help both of you in the long run. I have a dog that chases and I thing I find most important with training is not letting them do it in the first place - once they have a taste for it, it becomes routine and they do it consistently (in my experience with my collie x anyway) If it is fear aggression it is also unfair to put the dog in that situation, if she is that bothered by this particular dog.

I have found using a whistle with mine helped immensely. She responds to it far better than the voice, it can be heard from a greater distance and a lot of the time can break through her reverie and I can catch her before she runs. (doesn't happen anymore as I am careful where I let her off) Perhaps you could consider this? I think dobiegirl mentioned this but if every time you see the particular dog, make yours sit and click and treat and make them watch you. It also helps to teach a good leave command and you can employ this at the vital moment when they are about to run. I have to quick though and on alert most of the time, mine is very quick and it sounds as if yours is too - if you haven't got your wits about you she will be gone but she is far better now she gets the opportunity less.

You could also try a distraction - if they like to chase (not sure this will work if it is agression) a ball in a chucker flung as far in the opposite direction might work. Dogs get a natural thrill out of chasing which is another reason it is difficult to stop once the start - it is self rewarding. If you whistle, then throw the ball. Agression might be slightly different but you have to instill more boundaries - if everytime you go and let them all off they will just continue to chase, hence, breaking the cycle and putting them on a lead.

Hope some of this helps. It is difficult and I have come to accept now that I will probably never be able to let my dog off everywhere I go as she is wary of certain things etc. But it sounds, because it is just a few select dogs, that if you nip this in the bud now with a bit of lead work, you will be able to let them off again all the time. Sorry for the long post, I got a bit carried away!
 
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