My horse was sound, got shod, and is now crippled....

[Michen]

And I just don't know what to do. He's 2.5 months off the track and was shod 3 weeks after I got him by my very, very good farrier (really is the best in the area and I persevered like mad to get onto his list- he did a grand job with my last horse). Horse is flat footed and needed a lot of work doing. He was a little footy after he was shod 7 weeks ago, only lasted 24 hours or so.

This time he lost a front shoe on sunday eve (9 days ago). Farrier came Monday morning as was booked anyway, and the horse was in his stable having walked in from the field (across 100metres of stoney ish track) to get to stable. He was a bit ouchy without it but that's to be expected. Anyway so horse was shod, farrier again said to expect a little footiness so I gave him danilon for 24 hours and he was okay. By Wednesday (no more danilon in system) the horse was pottery and very lame on a circle. Farrier back out that day and found a bruise, put special aluminium shoes on which have a sort of woodeny bit in between hoof and shoe for extra protection. Horse seemed immediately a bit better. Next day, horse absolutely crippled. I mean he looked like he had foundered- that bad. Improved the more he's walked.

I called farrier and asked him to come and remove the shoes. I couldn't be there but he rang me after and said he didn't want to take them off as he really thought it would worsen the situation. He said to danilon for a few more days and re assess Monday. Did that, horse improved (but by no means sound), stopped the danilon sunday and now he's pretty bad again.

I just don't know what to do. I 100% trust my farrier but I'm terrified there is a nasty underlying issue here. A few things which are niggling away are; the horse trips a fair amount, he's a little back at the knee, after work his legs sometimes "shake" and he stands sort of over the knee (only after work), a stable lad who knew him from a couple of years ago said he was a sound horse but could sometimes look "pottery" coming out of the stable.

Equally its very feasible that my farrier got a bit too eager in altering his hoof, or cut his toe back too far too soon. The horses front feet are both quite a bit warmer than the backs, but no digital pulse.

Worth mentioning is that this horse has an insanely low pain threshold. Slightest wound sets him off.

Any ideas anyone as to what I should do? I don't want to re start him on the danilon as I want to be able to see a true picture of how he is and he's perfectly happy in himself. I'm worried about the niggling things I mentioned earlier... has anyone got any thoughts on what they could be?

Or anyone experienced something like this....

I'm torn between trusting my farrier and knowing he's fab, but wondering whether I really agree that a horse should be shod and "expected" to be a little footy. Don't see why the changes have to be made so quickly he gets sore. Equally I'm terrified he's got something really wrong and its been set off by the shoeing somehow.

ARGH!!! He's such a lovely little lad and I want the absolute best for him but I'm not sure whether I should be getting the vet out and x raying or giving it more time. He was shod on the 12th... so 9 days later and he's still sore...

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if there is something going on that has been there for some time, a sound horse should not pull out pottery and that was a couple of years ago he will have done plenty of work since then if he stayed in training.

If he was mine I would probably give him a break and turn him away so he can let down from racing, have the shoes off and let any niggles either show up properly so they can be looked at or if lucky having a real break may give it all a chance to settle, the wobbly legs sound as if they could do with a rest.

If you want to continue then I think you do need a vet to see what is going on, the farrier can only do his job well if the feet are healthy, if there is an issue inside then it will require correct care to deal with it but you may need a lot of investigations to get to the bottom of it, it is possibly longstanding due to his conformation and being continually worked hard.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No horse should be less sound after shoeing than it was beforehand.

 

[Michen]

It sounds as if there is something going on that has been there for some time, a sound horse should not pull out pottery and that was a couple of years ago he will have done plenty of work since then if he stayed in training.

If he was mine I would probably give him a break and turn him away so he can let down from racing, have the shoes off and let any niggles either show up properly so they can be looked at or if lucky having a real break may give it all a chance to settle, the wobbly legs sound as if they could do with a rest.

If you want to continue then I think you do need a vet to see what is going on, the farrier can only do his job well if the feet are healthy, if there is an issue inside then it will require correct care to deal with it but you may need a lot of investigations to get to the bottom of it, it is possibly longstanding due to his conformation and being continually worked hard.

Hmmm this is what I'm afraid of. He's essentially been turned away for 2.5 months, he's been doing a very very small amount of basic groundwork but no ridden.

I just don't see how he has been shod fine for the last 5 years (spoken to all three trainers) and then my farrier tries to change stuff and this happens...

 

[Andalucian]

I just don't see how he has been shod fine for the last 5 years (spoken to all three trainers) and then my farrier tries to change stuff and this happens...

Really? you've just pinpointed the problem my dear. Re-read this sentence.

 

[SusieT]

VET your farrier shouldn't be recommending danilon - horse is lame, not improving, get a vet.

 

[_HP_]

This is a job for your vet...

What are you feeding him? Has it changed since you've had him? I would feed to a high fibre, low cereal diet and treat him as a laminitic . Have you checked his pulse. It's not just fat ponies that get laminitis. My tb was very sensitive to grass and would go footy very easily.
I would be tempted whip off his shoes and get some boots and pads to keep him comfortable
No horse should ever be sore after being shod.

 

[Goldenstar]

VET your farrier shouldn't be recommending danilon - horse is lame, not improving, get a vet.

I agree you need to get the vet involved .
A farrier should not be telling you medicate a horse without imput from the vet unless you dealing with a long term issue where the vet has left you pain relief to use as needed .
This would be a huge alarm bells about this farrier for me it's an unprofessional and dangerous approach.
You need the vet to assess what's going on, you also need the to be a good equine vet .I assume the horse passed the vet before it arrived if it was not vetted I would be very worried .

 

[Scarlett]

But if someone has been saying that he could be 'pottery' after shoeing then he HASNT been fine the last 5 years.

It's not acceptable for a horse to be less sound after shoeing or trimming, nor to expect a horse to need bute.

It sounds like you have a long standing problem that you need a vet to address ASAP. Do you have any pics of the feet?

 

[Michen]

This is a job for your vet...

What are you feeding him? Has it changed since you've had him? I would feed to a high fibre, low cereal diet and treat him as a laminitic . Have you checked his pulse. It's not just fat ponies that get laminitis. My tb was very sensitive to grass and would go footy very easily.
I would be tempted whip off his shoes and get some boots and pads to keep him comfortable
No horse should ever be sore after being shod.

UPDATE all. So I did some digging last night and spoke to the wife of the trainer he was with a year ago. She said they never used to let the farrier apprentice's shoe him as if you cut back too much of the toe he would always go very footy, so he was always done by the guy himself (my farrier shod him- not the apprentices). She said once they had figured that out and the farrier knew how to shoe him he was fine. The same farrier shod him at his next yard, where I bought him from, and they never had any problems so that does make sense.

He's a lot better today actually, though his front feet are still slightly warm he's walking out nicely. My farrier is coming back this afternoon to have another look at him.

I still think that all sounds a little bit odd, but it does tie in with the fact the horse does have a very low pain threshold anyway so not completely impossible.

_HP_ He's fed a very low starch low sugar diet anyway, I weaned him off his racing mix in 10 days and he's on healthy tummy and Saracen super fibre pencils with a little bit of sugar beet. He has no pulse.

 

[Michen]

I agree you need to get the vet involved .
A farrier should not be telling you medicate a horse without imput from the vet unless you dealing with a long term issue where the vet has left you pain relief to use as needed .
This would be a huge alarm bells about this farrier for me it's an unprofessional and dangerous approach.
You need the vet to assess what's going on, you also need the to be a good equine vet .I assume the horse passed the vet before it arrived if it was not vetted I would be very worried .

No, the horse was not vetted. He was £200, it wouldn't have been worth it at all. At that price you cut your losses if something goes wrong and do the right thing (which in the case of a little ex racehorse, I hasten to add, would be to have him put down if he was not going to remain sound- I do not agree with thoroughbreds being past on as bloomin companions!).

 

[Michen]

Really? you've just pinpointed the problem my dear. Re-read this sentence.

Forgive me if I have interpreted this the wrong way, but your comment sounds a little patronising

Re reading that sentence I could actually see it in two different ways.

1) He hasn't actually been shod fine for the last 5 years, and he's been "broken" for a while but there's been some dishonesty
2) My farrier has totally messed up and shod him too tight, or pricked him, or cut his toe back too much etc etc.

Following on from what I heard last night (see above post) I am suspecting the latter.

 

[Michen]

But if someone has been saying that he could be 'pottery' after shoeing then he HASNT been fine the last 5 years.

It's not acceptable for a horse to be less sound after shoeing or trimming, nor to expect a horse to need bute.

It sounds like you have a long standing problem that you need a vet to address ASAP. Do you have any pics of the feet?

Hi Scarlett,

The lad said he could sometimes be pottery coming out of his stable, not necessarily after shoeing. However all 3 trainers have said that's utter rubbish, so not sure what to think there. No pictures of his feet I'm afraid, but here's a couple of him so you can see what I mean re confirmation.

Bless him, he's not put together particularly well, but I tell you what- he rides amazingly. He's not in work at the moment but I hopped on him when he arrived and this was his first ever time in the school. [video=youtube;HJcunZZaolg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcunZZaolg[/video]On the forehand yes but that's an exceptionally lovely canter for a horse straight out of training- in my humble opinion anyway He's also an absolutely poppet in every other way, I was abroad for two weeks over Christmas and came back and thought sod it- I'll hop on him and take him round the block. Bareback, in a headcollar, less than two months out of training and hadn't been worked for weeks- didn't put a foot wrong. Such a genuine chap. Anyway- I'm blabbing now! But needless to say the right thing will be done for the horse whatever the outcome.


This was him yesterday.

 

[BethH]

Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me. I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation. I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly. When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy. Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood. Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly. By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC. I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again. I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done. My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience. Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation

 

[Michen]

Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me. I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation. I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly. When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy. Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood. Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly. By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC. I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again. I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done. My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience. Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation

This is the exact conversation I'll be having with my farrier this afternoon. I know he will be trying to do his absolute best for the horse but I think he's done too much here. Re the leg shaking, he's done that a bit since I had him and one of his old trainers said he used to do it a bit after a hard gallop- and they put it down to him being a bit "over at the knee". Which is odd as I think he looks back at the knee if anything! I'm not going to stress too much about the leg shaking as it isn't a regular thing and he's certainly not lame (until this happened!). We shall see....

 

[fatpiggy]

I'm also wondering if the OP's super duper farrier has gone at it all too hard and too fast. A horse I knew, worst legs and tiniest feet you ever saw (17.2hh warmblood with the hooves of a 13hh fine pony) had some work done to try to square up the fronts as he was also pigeon-toed. He was well into his teens at the time and within hours interesting lumps appeared on the legs. The farrier said that any more correction and he would be permanently damaged so they went back to shoeing him the way his legs were used to and the lumps disappeared straight away. The OPs horse can probably take the changes but they MUST be done slowly and over several shoeing cycles.

He does look a lovely boy and I'm quite sure the OP realises that with his problems, the quieter life is what is right for him. Lucky boy!

 

[Palindrome]

It sounds like it's either over trimming or perhaps an abscess brewing. His feet don't look very good and he is standing very straight behind. I think you would get some benefits by pulling the shoes and manage him barefoot. Not sure what you are feeding but as he is out of racing and not carrying lots of condition I would put him on a supplement to support the gut as well (something like Protexin acid ease perhaps?).

 

[Michen]

I'm also wondering if the OP's super duper farrier has gone at it all too hard and too fast. A horse I knew, worst legs and tiniest feet you ever saw (17.2hh warmblood with the hooves of a 13hh fine pony) had some work done to try to square up the fronts as he was also pigeon-toed. He was well into his teens at the time and within hours interesting lumps appeared on the legs. The farrier said that any more correction and he would be permanently damaged so they went back to shoeing him the way his legs were used to and the lumps disappeared straight away. The OPs horse can probably take the changes but they MUST be done slowly and over several shoeing cycles.

He does look a lovely boy and I'm quite sure the OP realises that with his problems, the quieter life is what is right for him. Lucky boy!

I agree, I think that's exactly what's happened here. I also think that maybe most horses would be fine with the changes he made, but mine does seem to be exceptionally sensitive.

With regards to his "problems", I am not going to write him off simply due to a comment from one stable lad, this, and his legs shaking occasionally after work when stood still. I have never seen him walk out of the stable pottery (until now- obviously!). Doesn't necessarily mean he needs a life as a companion or light hack- I've got a friend with an intermediate eventer that has spavin and a hole in his collateral ligament, he's a fantastic horse. This little chap will not be written off based on the information I have at the moment, but you can bet he will have the absolute best done by him

 

[Michen]

It sounds like it's either over trimming or perhaps an abscess brewing. His feet don't look very good and he is standing very straight behind. I think you would get some benefits by pulling the shoes and manage him barefoot. Not sure what you are feeding but as he is out of racing and not carrying lots of condition I would put him on a supplement to support the gut as well (something like Protexin acid ease perhaps?).

Indeed he's on healthy tummy (protexin in it), Saracen super fibre pencils, speedibeet and feedmark Gastric Comfort.

 

[BethH]

Would be interesting to see a close up of the feet especially the fronts. There is something about the way he is putting weight through them that makes me think he is a little uncomfortable but there are many others on here who are better informed and could make suggestions - I am quite likely to have this wrong, it may just be the photo but it is an odd stance. He looks extremely sweet and well worth the effort to help by the way!

 

[Michen]

Would be interesting to see a close up of the feet especially the fronts. There is something about the way he is putting weight through them that makes me think he is a little uncomfortable but there are many others on here who are better informed and could make suggestions - I am quite likely to have this wrong, it may just be the photo but it is an odd stance. He looks extremely sweet and well worth the effort to help by the way!

Hiya Beth,

Probably should have made it clearer, this is from yesterday when he was still really very sore so he is standing a bit back on his heels. He was pottery and sore and very uncomfortable turning so he's not likely to be standing very well either. I'll get some foot pics later today, he's a huge amount happier today- thank god. He re confirmed this when he leapt all four feet off the ground on the way to the field and fly bucked and squealed at the end of the leadrope. Cheeky ******!

 

[BethH]

Great news - you said exactly what I thought, he looks like he is rocking back a bit onto his heels. Just check too that he hasn't bruised those too as that really will make him land toe 1st!! Glad he is looking brighter - let's hope it's onwards and upwards for you both.

 

[Michen]

And that's a massive improvement from the day before where he quite literally looked like he had foundered. I hope so too! Thanks for your help

 

[Scarlett]

Indeed he's on healthy tummy (protexin in it), Saracen super fibre pencils, speedibeet and feedmark Gastric Comfort.

From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...

 

[Michen]

From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...

Sorry I don't want to sound frustrated but, I did say the photos were yesterday so of course he's going to look sore- he is sore!

Interesting what you say about the sugars in Healthy Tummy, at 4.5% this is hardly high? Heroes, Greatwood and my vet all promote it hugely so I'm surprised to hear you say that's high. Super fibre pencils are 10% starch which is generally considered okay for a horse with possible ulcers- and he's looking a lot better condition wise since he's been on them. I have to say I am looking into Pure Feeds, as they are very low in starch and sugar (sugars at 3.9%). Horses are designed to digest a certain amount of sugar- though certainly not the excessive amounts found in some cereals.

I know of Rockley having had a friend said a navicular horse there to be rehabbed. I'm not ruling out the idea of barefoot at all but Rockley is hugely expensive and I don't have the facilities here to rehab him myself.

He's foot sore since the shoeing, not foot sore in general, so I'm not really convinced his diet is a contributing factor as I would imagine he would be footy all the time.

I'll get some pics for you later and see what you think

 

[Michen]

From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...

Forgot to ask Scarlett, did you start them off with boots for hacking?

 

[Goldenstar]

I took my TB BF for eighteen months , I think it probably saved his life .
You don't need lots of special facilities ( although clearly it's easier at Rockley ) it's about time daily effort from the owner, and getting the diet spot on , and owner being prepared to take time out from doing what they what because for a while you need to match work to the level the feet can withstand .

 

[Scarlett]

Sorry I don't want to sound frustrated but, I did say the photos were yesterday so of course he's going to look sore- he is sore!

Interesting what you say about the sugars in Healthy Tummy, at 4.5% this is hardly high? Heroes, Greatwood and my vet all promote it hugely so I'm surprised to hear you say that's high. Super fibre pencils are 10% starch which is generally considered okay for a horse with possible ulcers- and he's looking a lot better condition wise since he's been on them. I have to say I am looking into Pure Feeds, as they are very low in starch and sugar (sugars at 3.9%). Horses are designed to digest a certain amount of sugar- though certainly not the excessive amounts found in some cereals.

I know of Rockley having had a friend said a navicular horse there to be rehabbed. I'm not ruling out the idea of barefoot at all but Rockley is hugely expensive and I don't have the facilities here to rehab him myself.

He's foot sore since the shoeing, not foot sore in general, so I'm not really convinced his diet is a contributing factor as I would imagine he would be footy all the time.

I'll get some pics for you later and see what you think

I stand corrected - It's Healthy Hooves (?) that is coated in sugar, not Healthy Tummy. Fibre Pencils are still not my idea of a good feed, sorry, molasses, wheat feed etc do not make up a good cube in my book and since moving from feeding that sort of stuff my horses hooves all improved massively. I had no idea the effect of commercial feed on feet until I changed it. Also alfalfa instantly makes my horses footy and it seems to be something that's quite common in barefoot horses so it's often avoided as a feed.

Horses are designed to digest some sugars. yes, but those naturally occurring in grasses etc, not molasses... just like people cope with sugars in fruits better than those in processed foods.

What facilities do you need? Only a tiny percentage of the horses who go barefoot in the UK go to Rockley, the rest are done at home.

If he looses a shoe is he footsore without it?

Pics would be great

Re Boots, I did buy some and they did help. I was feeding a good diet first so didn't have a huge issue with removing shoes except with the one who was getting afalfa and who had shoes removed and was trimmed by the farrier, he was lame for weeks and lived in boots initially. I would certainly recommend having a pair, I rarely use them now but when I do I'm very glad to have them!

I'm really not trying to be awkward, I just wish someone had told me al this when I started seeing problems. You're little horse sounds like my mare and in hindsight I had problems 2 years before her diagnosis that I did nothing about other than trust my farrier. I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd had access to the right info.

 

[Andalucian]

Hi, sorry not meaning to patronise, just seemed clear to me that a different approach to his foot balance by your farrier is the most likely cause, how ever well meaning and "correct" it may have been. Given your further posts, I would urge your farrier and the previous farrier to discuss him and for the former's experience of what works for him to be passed on.....good for all concerned.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Cutting molasses from their diet made a huge difference to all of my horses' horn quality. All I did was swap from a molassed chaff to a non molassed one and all had event lines from the change with much better horn above the event line.

When my anglo had her shoes removed due to hoof balance issues that were getting worse in shoes (long toes, under-run heels), I was relieved that she never missed a step on most surfaces. I did start off walking her in-hand and then progressed to riding, but she was always fine on tarmac, in the school and in the field. I would have bought boots if she needed them though.

This video is well worth watching (everyone with horses should watch it IMO ).

http://www.thehorse.com/videos/34609/is-the-hoof-smart-adaptability-of-the-equine-foot