My horse was sound, got shod, and is now crippled....

[Michen]

I think if you can keep him comfy through a barefoot transition it is the thing most likely to improve his feet. I think those heels will struggle to improve in shoes (so some time out of shoes and then if needed for the workload shoeing again/for part of the season might work). I would defnitely have a consult and a chat - I did too before my lads shoes came off. I suspect Andalucian is right in that he isn't going to be the easiest to transition and will likely need boots too but hopefully trimmer can advise, mine had a helpful fit kit .

I did use boots - easyboot gloves, used when straight out of shoes and better than shoes for hacking - I am still on the same pair though only used occasionally and they are nearly 3 years old now! - better grip on roads than shoes, (like bare) never lost one and have made them work quite hard! There are loads of boots out there now and some are designed for more padding that others (gloves don't really take pads) and some need to be a closer fit than others (gloves again!) while some are more forgiving - other easyboots/cavallo simples etc especially as I am quite unusual in that Frank's feet are much the same shape.
Pinesofrome on here had a horse who was particularly sore to start with and I think started to be helped by lucypriory on here. He definitely turned out in cavllos to start with until he became more comfortable.

Thanks for this Ester

So were you able to continue his level of work when he was wearing boots? As pretty much all of the hacking around here is quiet country roads and in the spring/summer he will probably be doing 1.5 hours of road work a day 4 days a week, and 2.5 hours once a week. I'm just cautious as to whether they are as good a protection as shoes or whether he's likely to be footy in them too. From what you are saying- sounds like they will be fine! Did you use them on all 4 feet to begin with?

 

[BethH]

Musing's good it helps you plan. I have never liked boots for my horse as lovely tho he is, he can be a bit of a pickle but really imaginative with his behaviour when he's not sure about something. I had visions of him cantering sideways up the road trying to kick them off and hitting some passing cyclist with them, so I did a fair bit of walking in hand on concrete & tarmac which is great for their feet. They are a great idea tho and have helped a lot of my friends horses. Oddly he coped remarkably well when the shoes came off - leapt in the air bless him, wasn't particularly footsore but went a bit wrong when I think I overdid it on hard ground in the summer with a bit of jumping. He transitioned so well we were all amazed and being the type that will try to be helpful if his head is on straight I just carried on as normal! He had genetic ks as a baby and I have always been so careful - was very angry with myself hence the suggestion to you of going slowly but surely. The right decision will come to you and if the shoes come off they can go back on again. We used to always take shoes of each year to give the horses feet a break, we don't anymore, think that is partly why there are so many problems & broken horses. Just do your homework first and whatever you decide will be the right thing

 

[Michen]

Musing's good it helps you plan. I have never liked boots for my horse as lovely tho he is, he can be a bit of a pickle but really imaginative with his behaviour when he's not sure about something. I had visions of him cantering sideways up the road trying to kick them off and hitting some passing cyclist with them, so I did a fair bit of walking in hand on concrete & tarmac which is great for their feet. They are a great idea tho and have helped a lot of my friends horses. Oddly he coped remarkably well when the shoes came off - leapt in the air bless him, wasn't particularly footsore but went a bit wrong when I think I overdid it on hard ground in the summer with a bit of jumping. He transitioned so well we were all amazed and being the type that will try to be helpful if his head is on straight I just carried on as normal! He had genetic ks as a baby and I have always been so careful - was very angry with myself hence the suggestion to you of going slowly but surely. The right decision will come to you and if the shoes come off they can go back on again. We used to always take shoes of each year to give the horses feet a break, we don't anymore, think that is partly why there are so many problems & broken horses. Just do your homework first and whatever you decide will be the right thing

Thank you- time to explore all options

I'm mainly worried about diet and restricting his grass. He will be in during the day all summer anyway, but the fields do get fairly lush. Do you have to strip graze to reduce your horses grass intake for the sugar levels? I wouldn't be able to do anything like this on my yard

 

[ester]

boots are generally more protective than shoes - all that nice sole cover/extra cushioning if required.

I used them on front only - Frank though welsh had collapsed heels and flat soles, his hinds were fine.
He was lame before his shoes came off and had been for a several months (conventional treatment not working long term), so he actually started doing 10 min in hand every day roadwork and went up from there. At the 6 week point his feet woke up and he went pretty footy although he was doing nearer and hour by then and sound- he was then booted because it is good for feet to be stimulated but not if sore- so he would do still do his 10 min on the road bare but would do more with his boots on. - I also became a pro at hacking to our 1/2 mile grassy stretch in boots, taking them off while there and then putting them on again on way home but he is a pony!

I still use them intermittently because we have some really chalky stoney forest tracks here- if on own I will let him pick along the edge/take his time a bit but if I am hacking with others who walk faster than him anyway and may want to trot on I will boot.

Fwiw he's been sound ever since his shoes came off He was 19 then and is 22 this summer so I took quite a long time over his rehab as having had him a long time wanted to give him every chance, and having closely looked at his landing I suspected some collateral ligament damage as he was landing v. badly outsides first- more so on the lame foot. We regularly do 10-15 mile hacks on various surfaces, compete and the odd bit of hunting (doesn't feel any stones then funny that!)

My only but is that I wouldn't expect him to be competitive on all types of grass without shoes, I wouldn't show jump him on grass/do some of the turns I used to do on him without studs sometimes, generally bare you get a lot more traction but hard ground/wet grass is problematic from what I have found, like it is in shoes but you can't pop any studs in to help. It isn't an issue for us as at his age we just play around doing things we enjoy and am not keen to jump him much unless on a surface these days anyway. If he were younger and we were still doing the stuff we did then I would prob shoe him if I wanted to stud but make sure he had a good winter unshod still. I think Goldenstar has one who can't quite cope fully so is shod for hunting but not the other 6 months to give them a rest.

Oh re the grazing we put a track around the outside of our field as he was at home then, cannot do that here in wilts although the grass is less lush than on somerset clay, and as a good doer he did well muzzled - in during the day too so adlib hay then. Might not be too much of an issue though, that is mostly for weight issues so yours might be fine out at night only.

 

[BethH]

To be honest in the summer my horse is in during the day & out at night when the sugar is lower, he has never been fed sugar in his diet since I bought him as a 4yr old because he behaves like an idiot so he is on the same diet now as when he was shod and I am lucky he has never showed any signs of laminitis etc. I just treat him like a normal horse, nothing has changed except my knowledge and he has a podiatrist not a farrier. The only thing I do differently is to go over his feet with a wire brush once a week to help him exfoliate and spray on sole spray by Red Horse to keep them clean. If there are a little smelly at any point I spray them with Hypocare (its a wound spray but brilliant for the frogs) a lot of people also use kevin Bacon. If your horse is in regular work the feet will sort themselves out as long as you work them thoughtfully and vary the surfaces. I also changed my bedding to a good quality wood pellet which I thought I would hate but it is great for his feet as is the sand in the sandschool, if he hets sore sand is brilliant at helping.

 

[Michen]

boots are generally more protective than shoes - all that nice sole cover/extra cushioning if required.

I used them on front only - Frank though welsh had collapsed heels and flat soles, his hinds were fine.
He was lame before his shoes came off and had been for a several months (conventional treatment not working long term), so he actually started doing 10 min in hand every day roadwork and went up from there. At the 6 week point his feet woke up and he went pretty footy although he was doing nearer and hour by then and sound- he was then booted because it is good for feet to be stimulated but not if sore- so he would do still do his 10 min on the road bare but would do more with his boots on. - I also became a pro at hacking to our 1/2 mile grassy stretch in boots, taking them off while there and then putting them on again on way home but he is a pony!

I still use them intermittently because we have some really chalky stoney forest tracks here- if on own I will let him pick along the edge/take his time a bit but if I am hacking with others who walk faster than him anyway and may want to trot on I will boot.

Fwiw he's been sound ever since his shoes came off He was 19 then and is 22 this summer so I took quite a long time over his rehab as having had him a long time wanted to give him every chance, and having closely looked at his landing I suspected some collateral ligament damage as he was landing v. badly outsides first- more so on the lame foot. We regularly do 10-15 mile hacks on various surfaces, compete and the odd bit of hunting (doesn't feel any stones then funny that!)

My only but is that I wouldn't expect him to be competitive on all types of grass without shoes, I wouldn't show jump him on grass/do some of the turns I used to do on him without studs sometimes, generally bare you get a lot more traction but hard ground/wet grass is problematic from what I have found, like it is in shoes but you can't pop any studs in to help. It isn't an issue for us as at his age we just play around doing things we enjoy and am not keen to jump him much unless on a surface these days anyway. If he were younger and we were still doing the stuff we did then I would prob shoe him if I wanted to stud but make sure he had a good winter unshod still. I think Goldenstar has one who can't quite cope fully so is shod for hunting but not the other 6 months to give them a rest.

Oh re the grazing we put a track around the outside of our field as he was at home then, cannot do that here in wilts although the grass is less lush than on somerset clay, and as a good doer he did well muzzled - in during the day too so adlib hay then. Might not be too much of an issue though, that is mostly for weight issues so yours might be fine out at night only.

Thank you so much for all that, really interesting to hear. I want this little guy to event (albeit never higher than a be100) eventually and didn't realise BE don't allow hoof boots so that's something to consider. Perhaps just popping shoes on during the season (this is all a long way off anyway!) would be the way to go and keep him barefoot the rest of the time. It will be interesting to see what the EP says but I think for now I'm not going to be rushing to take the shoes off.

Really appreciate all the info, I'll probably be bombarding you for more in the next few months

 

[Scarlett]

OP I just want to say well done for taking part in the conversation - whatever happens I think your horse will be just fine with an owner like you who is willing to ask questions and learn.

FWIW I think you should sort the diet then pull shoes and boot up. You might not need to boot the rears - you could pull them first and see how he copes? - and hopefully the diet changes will make the fronts transitioning easier.

The great thing is that you can re shoe if and when you need too, it's not final. Once the feet are healthier it'll be easier to keep them healthy in shoes, some folk shoe in the summer and rest the feet in the winter. There are horses out there eventing unshod, hopefully mine will be this year, and plenty dressage and jump without shoes. I went to an xc clinic last year and had less slipping than the shod horses, people thought I had studs in until I pointed out we didn't even have shoes.

Anyway good luck and keep us updated!

 

[Michen]

OP I just want to say well done for taking part in the conversation - whatever happens I think your horse will be just fine with an owner like you who is willing to ask questions and learn.

FWIW I think you should sort the diet then pull shoes and boot up. You might not need to boot the rears - you could pull them first and see how he copes? - and hopefully the diet changes will make the fronts transitioning easier.

The great thing is that you can re shoe if and when you need too, it's not final. Once the feet are healthier it'll be easier to keep them healthy in shoes, some folk shoe in the summer and rest the feet in the winter. There are horses out there eventing unshod, hopefully mine will be this year, and plenty dressage and jump without shoes. I went to an xc clinic last year and had less slipping than the shod horses, people thought I had studs in until I pointed out we didn't even have shoes.

Anyway good luck and keep us updated!

Thanks Scarlett, its definitely something I'm going to really look in to. My other thought is- if he can be without shoes, and booted if necessary, it would actually make my fittening work so much easier. I'm not a fan of trotting on roads as I worry about the concussion from shoes (particularly having managed a spavin horse before). I'd certainly feel a lot happier doing it if he was booted/barefoot.

Lots to think about- thanks for all your help, I'll keep you updated. No doubt there will be lots of HELP posts over the next few months!

 

[ester]

, fwiw despite my hoof boots being fab and not losing one and having popped over a few logs I wouldn't be keen to do loads of jumping in them - mostly because I think there is a chance of the horse stepping on one/tripping itself up/one coming part off mid round. I wouldn't hunt in them either though I do know someone does with their haffy with extra athletic tape to make them fit, but they have particularly flinty ground.

 

[Michen]

, fwiw despite my hoof boots being fab and not losing one and having popped over a few logs I wouldn't be keen to do loads of jumping in them - mostly because I think there is a chance of the horse stepping on one/tripping itself up/one coming part off mid round. I wouldn't hunt in them either though I do know someone does with their haffy with extra athletic tape to make them fit, but they have particularly flinty ground.

Just to update you all because everyone on here was so helpful! Although he continued to improve I decided I wasn't happy with this and needed to dig a bit deep so had his feet x rayed today. Also had an EP out to see him.

EP recommended not removing the shoes for now,that is will be a long process to get him ready for it.

Farrier- sacked. Which is sad because I've got on with him so well for the last few years. However I had another guy out to him before the vet (who my old farrier- incidently- trained!!!) and he was absolutely shocked at various things that my farrier had done and very surprised he hadn't said I should x ray much earlier. He told me x y z, and guess what, x y z rocked up on the x rays. Whole foot is horribly out of balance and his soles are so thin his pedal bone is practically on the floor.

So, for now, I am going down the vet referall remedial farrier route. Both my farrier and vet and fairly pro him eventually having some time out of shoes, but both feel there's so much severity to what's going on with his feet now that we need to try and improve the situation before pulling shoes.

I know some of you won't agree with this but I really trust this farrier and my vet and I'm going to go with their advice for now and see where it gets us. If it doesn't work, shoes off. My long term plan is for him to have them off for a good few months at least when possible anyway, so fingers crossed we can work towards that.

 

[BethH]

Well done - foot balance can cause terrible issues as it did with my poor horse. Am delighted you now have a way forward - lucky horse, I think a rest from shoes for his feet is always a good thing and something we should all try to do regularly. My horse is still barefoot, given all the issues he has been through, in retrospect I would have tried to get the foot balanced properly & tried to get some heels back under him for a bit before pulling the shoes - I love him being barefoot but I think just going from shod to not was too fast for him and put strain on his joints. You'll get to the right place in the end now you have good help on your side. Good luck, keep us posted

 

[Andalucian]

Good update.

 

[ester]

Michen I don't think many will disagree it seems a v sensible approach to me. It is important the horse stays comfortable enough so if that means good shoeing for now I think horse is lucky to have you

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have to agree, the horse's comfort must come first.

 

[Michen]

Michen I don't think many will disagree it seems a v sensible approach to me. It is important the horse stays comfortable enough so if that means good shoeing for now I think horse is lucky to have you

Thank you Having said that- know anyone who would like a free thoroughbred? He's being starved for a scoping tomorrow morning and it looks like I'm about to spend the night in his stable as he is quite literally chewing the wooden walls, I've run out of cribox now and I have no muzzle! God damn horse...... yard owner will go bonkers.

 

[Michen]

Thanks all! I have a million questions waiting, more to be added when I hear farriers plan next week so no doubt you'll see an essay of a post soon to pick all your brains You've all been amazingly helpful so thank you.

With or without shoes I will do what I can to get this little horse sound and comfy, he deserves a shot.

 

[honetpot]

Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me. I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation. I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly. When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy. Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood. Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly. By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC. I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again. I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done. My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience. Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation

We owned a pony who had the worst looking feet ever, totally upright, contracted frogs which even when trimmed never touched the ground, when my daughter took her to PC kids used to ask what was wrong with her feet. Best of advice from a farrier was, don't let anyone fiddle with her feet and get them 'right', she was never lame in the 20 years I had her.
We also had a TB who's sole were very thin, good farriers want to trim them to as shape and one went through the sole, to the point it bled. He also had a good memory so had to be on danilon if he stubbed his toe, or had a bruise or even thought the ground was stony.
At this stage I would get the vet just for a check that nothing has been missed but you risk that they will want to dig and make things worse but next time I would do a reducing dose of danilon. Provided the vet can not find anything I would leave him on the danilon but a reduce dose and let the hoof grow and then trial him without.

 

[Michen]

Hiya all,

Just updating you with a wee video from this evening. He's not 100% but WOW I am relieved to see him moving like this, 3 days ago he was still seriously pottery in trot and I was beginning to think I'd never see him sound again. Nearly 4 weeks after he was shod and his toes were cut back so severely In a way I am glad it happened as it meant I got the x rays done, even if what we found on them wasn't really the cause of the lameness.

[video=youtube;OF6TOLot_ko]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6TOLot_ko[/video]

About an hour after this was taken he was shod with graduated bar shoes and gel pads. As some of you guys predicted, he did seem immediately more comfortable. He will be x rayed again in 3 months time and if no actual improvement is showing (aka its purely that he seems more comfortable not that they are working) then we will have to re think. But for now, considering how much pain this little horse has been in, I am just so relieved to see him happy again!