My towing advice - any safety issues especially B licence towing ?

[Mike007]

I say if that is the case... get a better bloomin' trailer Mike! (or a better horse that can stand up and balance)

I have been in trucks towing 5 cows before and none of them are tied up, all jostling like wild animals. The trailer is relatively low compared to a horse trailer but not that much.

If what you say happened often,farmers would give up hauling.

It happens often enough.some Farmers and folk like you just tend to believe that it will never happen to them .I think your response to some fairly basic facts is a classic example of smug unwarented complacency.

 

[tallyho!]

It happens often enough.some Farmers and folk like you just tend to believe that it will never happen to them .I think your response to some fairly basic facts is a classic example of smug unwarented complacency.

No need for name calling now is there?

It does happen of course but not for the reasons you said. A horse generally moves like people do on a bus/train standing up. You move into the centre of a centrifugal force not the opposite. A heavy static weight that rolled out of the centre of force is more likely to cause the shifts you talk about. A good trailer is well balanced and has a tolerance limit for abnormal shifts of weight e.g. by placing the container inside of the wheels.

It's not complacency it's fairly basic physics. Just practical and pragmatic. If you feel that is smug, thats your prerogative. Of course accidents happen. Towing has its dangers and should not be done without careful considerations which is why I think everyone should take a test.

 

[Mike007]

It happens often enough.some Farmers and folk like you just tend to believe that it will never happen to them .I think your response to some fairly basic facts is a classic example of smug unwarented complacency.

Sorry,that reply of mine was sharper than I intended,I have seen a few trailer accidents and it is not pleasant.

 

[rockysmum]

So what about the second part of Rogs post

What do you think about young drivers avoiding the trailer test by using cars and downrating trailers to come in under the limit

 

[tallyho!]

Sorry,that reply of mine was sharper than I intended,I have seen a few trailer accidents and it is not pleasant.

So have I like I said in previous post. I have spent 7 years on motorways and roads in UK and have seen some pretty terrifying scenes!

 

[Batgirl]

I used to tow with a mondeo, it was capable, legal and all aspects check over by the garage where I worked. If the car is capable it is capable, as rockysmum said a bit further down the post the car doesn't have to be a 4x4 it just has to be capable of the job. IMO if it is legal it generally will be capable enough not to be inately dangerous, however poor towing is poor towing, whatever you are driving.

It does make me mad that I am going to have to pay for a trailer test and upgrade my car due to the licensing rules but if it increases safe towing then I will just have to bear it

 

[Mike007]

No need for name calling now is there?

It does happen of course but not for the reasons you said. A horse generally moves like people do on a bus/train standing up. You move into the centre of a centrifugal force not the opposite. A heavy static weight that rolled out of the centre of force is more likely to cause the shifts you talk about. A good trailer is well balanced and has a tolerance limit for abnormal shifts of weight e.g. by placing the container inside of the wheels.

It's not complacency it's fairly basic physics. Just practical and pragmatic. If you feel that is smug, thats your prerogative. Of course accidents happen. Towing has its dangers and should not be done without careful considerations which is why I think everyone should take a test.

Snaking involves increasing amounts of stored energy in the harmonic motion. The swaying of the animals regardless of the fact that it opposes the motion ,merely adds to the stored energy.Ultimately there comes a point when the trailer will flip.Remember that the swaying has further effects than simply within the trailer. The springs and tyres of the towing vehicle also start to pick up this movement adversely affecting handling and braking.

 

[tallyho!]

So what about the second part of Rogs post

What do you think about young drivers avoiding the trailer test by using cars and downrating trailers to come in under the limit

I fail to see what is wrong. ROG generally says if within the cars towing capacity and trailer MAM then it's legal.

If it's about livestock being different to caravans then I think that is the responsibility of the owner/driver to tow safely.

ROG gives legal and practical advice as far as I can see.

Where I took my test, there is no special training needed to towing livestock according to DVLA - you CAN get specialist training but it isn't up to ROG to recommend that and the law does not require it.

 

[tallyho!]

Snaking involves increasing amounts of stored energy in the harmonic motion. The swaying of the animals regardless of the fact that it opposes the motion ,merely adds to the stored energy.Ultimately there comes a point when the trailer will flip.Remember that the swaying has further effects than simply within the trailer. The springs and tyres of the towing vehicle also start to pick up this movement adversely affecting handling and braking.

Yes, thank you, but you said that the motion of the horse *causes* the sway a few posts back. I said not necessarily because of how horses move into swing forces in a trailer when travelling normally. Correct me if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Now you have gone back to when sway *actually* starts and you have said it before in this thread, and I understand this principle anyway, but I see the benefit of repeating it for other people.

This is also why I think people need to take the test because there is some training given about how to save if you get into this scary situation and you dont have anti-snaking fitted.

 

[perfect11s]

I think these little horse trailers are very poor realy from a technical point of view load distrubution is critical but not easy to get right but the main issue is the distance from the back axle to the towing point the longer it is the more leaverage and the more amplified the mass of the trailer will be on the towing vehicle it is critical the tow bar is the right hight and the brakes are spot on , the heavier vehicles with the least overhang at the back should be best dont matter if its a car or 4x4, but a car might be safer due to a lower center of gravity and less likely to turn over if things go wrong , Personaly I think the Yanks have got the best idea with there goose neck semi trailers which become part of the towing vehicle some of the weight is carryed over the back axle so very stable I heard Equitek were working on one for uk pick ups but guess the ression has put pay to that!!! sad realy as it would be huge
step forward both in safety and practicality ...

 

[rockysmum]

Its interesting that a normal car has an average noseweight specification of around 800Kg. A large 4 x 4 has one of 1500Kg, almost double.

How many of us know what the noseweight of our trailers are. I suppose it also depends on how its loaded and how much water/tack etc is in the front.

I know mine is dammed heavy empty as I tried to lift it once when the jockey wheel slipped. Had to use a car jack to get it back up.

 

[Clannad48]

Last year I changed from a lorry to a trailer, now I have been driving cars, lorries, hgv s and all sorts over the last 40 years. Before the move I researched in great depth, looked carefully at what other people were towing with at shows, I questioned ROG, checked with my mechanic and the local IW salesman. As a result I now tow an IW 510 with a 17.2 dwb on board with a 2.8 automatic Jeep Cherokee. Ok so far no problems, although my daughter says I drive like a learner, always on the lookout for a possible problem. Now today I read this weeks H&H and see that it appears to be 'recommending' a 4x4 from a 'safety perspective'. I personally chose my jeep because there are occasions when I 'off-road' but there are times when I wish I had a 'car'. As to ROG being questioned about giving 'bad advice' Total Tosh. If someone is that concerned then research it yourself. I am really grateful or the advice he gave me, but I also took advice from people I know personally. No offence ROG

 

[Mike007]

Yes, thank you, but you said that the motion of the horse *causes* the sway a few posts back. I said not necessarily because of how horses move into swing forces in a trailer when travelling normally. Correct me if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Now you have gone back to when sway *actually* starts and you have said it before in this thread, and I understand this principle anyway, but I see the benefit of repeating it for other people.

This is also why I think people need to take the test because there is some training given about how to save if you get into this scary situation and you dont have anti-snaking fitted.

Ah, I think you missed a comma in the sentence"this is due to the fact that they will tend to sway with the motion of the trailer ,any motion,including the onset of snaking,and the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast, with a relatively high centre of gravity, is an absolute nightmare dynamicly. " .What I believe I said was that the livestock will sway in reaction to any movement including the onset of snaking.Perhaps gramaticaly it would have been better to add , that the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast with a relatively high centre of gravityis an absolute nightmare dynamicly,as a separate sentence.So no I have not said that the movement of animals causes snaking,but it certainly can add to the problem.

 

[perfect11s]

Its interesting that a normal car has an average noseweight specification of around 800Kg. A large 4 x 4 has one of 1500Kg, almost double.

How many of us know what the noseweight of our trailers are. I suppose it also depends on how its loaded and how much water/tack etc is in the front.

I know mine is dammed heavy empty as I tried to lift it once when the jockey wheel slipped. Had to use a car jack to get it back up.

Umm I think you have a few two many 0s in your example smaller cars are around 80kg and big stuff like 4x4s are 150 kgs ish remember if the nose weight is too high it wont allow the brakes to work correctly because the sliding bit of the hitch binds!!!

 

[perfect11s]

Ah, I think you missed a comma in the sentence"this is due to the fact that they will tend to sway with the motion of the trailer ,any motion,including the onset of snaking,and the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast, with a relatively high centre of gravity, is an absolute nightmare dynamicly. " .What I believe I said was that the livestock will sway in reaction to any movement including the onset of snaking.Perhaps gramaticaly it would have been better to add , that the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast with a relatively high centre of gravityis an absolute nightmare dynamicly,as a separate sentence.So no I have not said that the movement of animals causes snaking,but it certainly can add to the problem.

Yes good point well made..

 

[rockysmum]

Umm I think you have a few two many 0s in your example smaller cars are around 80kg and big stuff like 4x4s are 150 kgs ish remember if the nose weight is too high it wont allow the brakes to work correctly because the sliding bit of the hitch binds!!!

LOL yes, gone mad with the keyboard I'm not drinking, honest

That would be a lot of weight on the tow hitch

Thanks for noticing

 

[ROG]

I have read all the posts and I thank you all for your input

It does seem that as long as the information given is legal then, whether a new driver towing on a B licence or a pre 1997 car pass driver towing on the free B+E licence, virtually any vehicle will be safe as long as the driver uses their common sense and gets some good towing advice in regards to towing horses

That could be said for towing caravans etc or getting behind the wheel of a different type of vehicle

There are many other aspects to towing which I do not cover such as nose-weights, how to load a trailer etc etc so it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure those other aspects are covered before they venture out with a trailer and especially before having a horse in it

The same sort of thing applies to those training for and passing a car or LGV test - only the basics are taught - anything else is up to the driver to sort out post test.
You dont get trained for every type of vehicle under 3.5 tonnes on a car test and nor do those passing a LGV test get trained for every type of LGV and/or trailer they might tow

It also seems from reading the posts that many have personal opinions as to what is safe and what is not - thats fine - we all have, and are entitled to, those opinions which may or may not be based on our own experiences and abilities

So to conclude:-
I do not now have any safety concerns in giving out the legal information on weights and licences which I am knowledgable on as I can be assured that those intending to tow their very precious horses are not going to risk doing so without gaining the extra safety information before venturing out.

 

[rockysmum]

So to conclude:-
I do not now have any safety concerns in giving out the legal information on weights and licences which I am knowledgable on as I can be assured that those intending to tow their very precious horses are not going to risk doing so without gaining the extra safety information before venturing out.

LOL Rog, if I thought everyone did that I would never have mentioned this subject

Perhaps you should just add that statement to your advice

 

[ROG]

LOL Rog, if I thought everyone did that I would never have mentioned this subject

Perhaps you should just add that statement to your advice

After reading the posts it seems I do not have to - that was the point of doing this thread - to find out if there was an ongoing issue to be addressed

Had there been posts where others had experience or first hand knowledge of the concerns you raised then adding that to the legal advice would be seriously considered

 

[perfect11s]

After reading the posts it seems I do not have to - that was the point of doing this thread - to find out if there was an ongoing issue to be addressed

Had there been posts where others had experience or first hand knowledge of the concerns you raised then adding that to the legal advice would be seriously considered

Personaly the law is the law but I think it would be better to encorage everybody to take the towing test if they are going to tow horses !!! any extra learning oppertunity like IAM or tuition towards a new licence category is a good thing for road safety instead of messing about with trying to squeze a quart into a pint pot with single trailers and cars barely big enough to tow on a B licence, realy its stupid having towing at all on a B cat far better if they just said it coverd a solo car or van under 3.5 ton gross just my 2 cents...

 

[ROG]

Personaly the law is the law but I think it would be better to encorage everybody to take the towing test if they are going to tow horses !!! any extra learning oppertunity like IAM or tuition towards a new licence category is a good thing for road safety instead of messing about with trying to squeze a quart into a pint pot with single trailers and cars barely big enough to tow on a B licence, realy its stupid having towing at all on a B cat far better if they just said it coverd a solo car or van under 3.5 ton gross just my 2 cents...

The B+E towing test hardly touches what is required for towing horse trailers
Passing that test means the driver has a basic understanding of how to reverse and tow an empty box trailer on the road but thats it

No difference towing on a cat B or B+E if the knowledge and safety aspects of towing a horse trailer are not met by the driver

If there was a horse trailer towing test that included having a horse in the trailer then that would work ... oooh look ... flying pig !!

 

[rockysmum]

I am sorry Rog, but I still disagree with you.

People on here are thinking that what you say is law. They go on the towing clinic to check things out with you.

To now state that your advice is only on what weight it is legal to tow on what licence might be a little late for some.

For example if someone has downrated a large trailer with a high noseweight because of advice on here, they could find they are towing outside the car manufacturers specifications. And that cant be safe in anyones opinion.

I accept that you have never said that a combination would be safe but just that it would be legal for weight. But I also haven't seen a list of what else to check included anywhere in the clinic. Surely a clinic, which is giving comprehensive advice to prospective buyers would.

Only witness the "they should have asked Rog" thread. I haven't seen the article, but if it is suggesting that 4 x 4's are better, are they really wrong????

 

[Batgirl]

I am sorry Rog, but I still disagree with you.

People on here are thinking that what you say is law. They go on the towing clinic to check things out with you.



Only witness the "they should have asked Rog" thread. I haven't seen the article, but if it is suggesting that 4 x 4's are better, are they really wrong????

The first point is that all ROG is advising on is if weights and measures are legal, this is more than you can get most places, people should take responsibility for themselves.

and your second point, no one is arguing with 4X4s however they have got several legal facts wrong, legal being the operative word.

Your opinion is your opinion and just that, just like any matter of welfare there is a legal framework and there are peoples opinion, ROG helping on some of the legal stuff is very helpful much like posting on Vet forums, there is only so much faith people should put in forum advice.

I have towed without a 4x4 and was perfectly safe in my opinion and in VOSA qualified towing experts opinion, that's good enough for me.

 

[perfect11s]

I am sorry Rog, but I still disagree with you.

People on here are thinking that what you say is law. They go on the towing clinic to check things out with you.

To now state that your advice is only on what weight it is legal to tow on what licence might be a little late for some.

For example if someone has downrated a large trailer with a high noseweight because of advice on here, they could find they are towing outside the car manufacturers specifications. And that cant be safe in anyones opinion.

I accept that you have never said that a combination would be safe but just that it would be legal for weight. But I also haven't seen a list of what else to check included anywhere in the clinic. Surely a clinic, which is giving comprehensive advice to prospective buyers would.

Only witness the "they should have asked Rog" thread. I haven't seen the article, but if it is suggesting that 4 x 4's are better, are they really wrong????

Se my previous
post on this issue, but the nose weight business is a can of worms!! if the trailer is empty it will have a certain nose weight but when its loaded it can vary greatly depending on the placement of said load or how the load moves (horse/s) this will effect the handeling of the tow vehicle How much will depend on all sorts of factors but 4x4 or two wheel drive makes little or no difference, its distance from the tow vehicles rear axle to the tow ball, how stiff the springs are , its weight and how its balanced.. a two wheel drive van with a high payload capacity and a short distance axle to the tow ball will be a more stable tow vehicle than a 4x4 with soft suspension and a big overhang assuming they have a simalar recomended tow capacity!! so the 4x4,v 2wheel drive argument is rubbish how you drive and load your outfit is the most important thing provided its legal, but in an ideal world you want a big vehicle with lots of capacity in reserve but judging by most towing posts people are looking for the newest most fashionable vehicle thats cheapest to run even if its only just barely big enough and on the limit for instance they will buy a freelander rather than a older discovery
because impresing their friends is more important than having the right tool for the job...

 

[ROG]

I am sorry Rog, but I still disagree with you.

People on here are thinking that what you say is law. They go on the towing clinic to check things out with you.

To now state that your advice is only on what weight it is legal to tow on what licence might be a little late for some.

For example if someone has downrated a large trailer with a high noseweight because of advice on here, they could find they are towing outside the car manufacturers specifications. And that cant be safe in anyones opinion.

I accept that you have never said that a combination would be safe but just that it would be legal for weight. But I also haven't seen a list of what else to check included anywhere in the clinic. Surely a clinic, which is giving comprehensive advice to prospective buyers would.

Only witness the "they should have asked Rog" thread. I haven't seen the article, but if it is suggesting that 4 x 4's are better, are they really wrong????

Any question on towing can be asked on the towing clinic thread and If I cannot answer it then it is open for anyone to answer - it is not MY thread/clinic

If a trailer mechanic was on that thread and someone asked about trailer brakes would you expect them to go into the licence regs etc etc etc etc etc etc etc ?

 

[rockysmum]

Se my previous
post on this issue, but the nose weight business is a can of worms!! if the trailer is empty it will have a certain nose weight but when its loaded it can vary greatly depending on the placement of said load or how the load moves (horse/s) this will effect the handeling of the tow vehicle How much will depend on all sorts of factors but 4x4 or two wheel drive makes little or no difference, its distance from the tow vehicles rear axle to the tow ball, how stiff the springs are , its weight and how its balanced.. a two wheel drive van with a high payload capacity and a short distance axle to the tow ball will be a more stable tow vehicle than a 4x4 with soft suspension and a big overhang assuming they have a simalar recomended tow capacity!! so the 4x4,v 2wheel drive argument is rubbish how you drive and load your outfit is the most important thing provided its legal, but in an ideal world you want a big vehicle with lots of capacity in reserve but judging by most towing posts people are looking for the newest most fashionable vehicle thats cheapest to run even if its only just barely big enough and on the limit for instance they will buy a freelander rather than a older discovery
because impresing their friends is more important than having the right tool for the job...

I agree, I suspect 4x4s are quoted as they "look" better than a large van for example, and the cope better with muddy showfields

The nose weight thing is a can of worms. Something like 506 has a quoted noseweight of 88Kg I think. This is above what most cars cope with, so downrating them doesn't seem like a good idea. Also putting water or tackpacks in the front will make it worse, as will having a towball which is too high as you will in effect be lifting the front axle. Of course having a towball too low will be lifting the back axle, or possibly the back of the car

And all of this with a driver who might not have passed their normal test very long ago.

I take Rogs point that the test doesn't cover horses, but at least its something.

I am guessing that if people are finding ways to get round the laws, they will just tighten the laws still further and in this case I wouldn't disagree with them.

 

[ROG]

I know nowt about noseweights so ....

Is a noseweight more, less or the same if the trailer is loaded or empty ?

 

[rockysmum]

I know nowt about noseweights so ....

Is a noseweight more, less or the same if the trailer is loaded or empty ?

No it changes, as it does if the load moves, as a horse does.

However it is impossible to calculate every eventuality, the advice is to use the manufacturers average.

What is interesting is I have seen it quoted that a slight raise in the towbar height can add 20Kg to the noseweight.

This is my point about a combination being legal but not safe.

I just think some of the people posting on here are not aware of all the facts and would not know where to find them.

 

[perfect11s]

I know nowt about noseweights so ....

Is a noseweight more, less or the same if the trailer is loaded or empty ?

Um it depends on how the trailer is loaded!! in an ideal world it would be about the same !!but thats unlikely however horse trailers are designed to place the load about right its only when people put heavy stuff in the front like water carryers and bales of shavings feed etc there is much risk of it being nose heavy!! I would say tow bar hight is possibly the most critical thing to get right for stable and safe towing...

 

[china]

I used to have a discovery, which in itself is like driving a tumble dryer with how it rolls all over the road. I towed a Bateson deuville with this and it was horrid, it moved all over the motorway, any lorry that went past it felt horrendous! I sold the disco as it had 200k on the clock and was a pain to park in the town centre for work and down sized for a smaller, newer freelander td4. I was sceptical about it at first but it has been fantastic! People are very quick to jump on the "I would never tow with a Freelander" wagon but until you have done it then I really don't think you can comment. It tows much nicer than the disco. It's much more stable on the road, it feels rooted to the road. I tow a 505R with one horse weighing 560kg (weighed on a weigh bridge). Admittedly I wouldn't tow two horses with it but it does the job with the one! It manages fine with hills, even very steep hills over Devon and Somerset and it got me out of a boggy field after being parked for four hours in a monsoon when others were being towed out by tractors. I think if it doesn't feel right then you should do something about it. It annoys me how people are judged as horse owners by what they tow there horses with. Some people simply just don't have the knowledge on weights etc so its completely unintentional. If I could change one thing it would be to have a nice lorry with a luxury living haha! ;-) but I would still love to have the freelander as an everyday car as its lovely to drive.