My towing advice - any safety issues especially B licence towing ?

china said:
I used to have a discovery, which in itself is like driving a tumble dryer with how it rolls all over the road. I towed a Bateson deuville with this and it was horrid, it moved all over the motorway, any lorry that went past it felt horrendous! I sold the disco as it had 200k on the clock and was a pain to park in the town centre for work and down sized for a smaller, newer freelander td4. I was sceptical about it at first but it has been fantastic! People are very quick to jump on the "I would never tow with a Freelander" wagon but until you have done it then I really don't think you can comment. It tows much nicer than the disco. It's much more stable on the road, it feels rooted to the road. I tow a 505R with one horse weighing 560kg (weighed on a weigh bridge). Admittedly I wouldn't tow two horses with it but it does the job with the one! It manages fine with hills, even very steep hills over Devon and Somerset and it got me out of a boggy field after being parked for four hours in a monsoon when others were being towed out by tractors. I think if it doesn't feel right then you should do something about it. It annoys me how people are judged as horse owners by what they tow there horses with. Some people simply just don't have the knowledge on weights etc so its completely unintentional. If I could change one thing it would be to have a nice lorry with a luxury living haha! ;-) but I would still love to have the freelander as an everyday car as its lovely to drive.
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LOl at the Disco, mine was the same unless you followed the manufacturers instructions and upped the rear tyre pressures. I actually found it handled better on the higher tyre pressure even without a trailer.

However the best thing I ever did was get rid of it and get another Defender
 
china said:
I used to have a discovery, which in itself is like driving a tumble dryer with how it rolls all over the road. I towed a Bateson deuville with this and it was horrid, it moved all over the motorway, any lorry that went past it felt horrendous! I sold the disco as it had 200k on the clock and was a pain to park in the town centre for work and down sized for a smaller, newer freelander td4. I was sceptical about it at first but it has been fantastic! People are very quick to jump on the "I would never tow with a Freelander" wagon but until you have done it then I really don't think you can comment. It tows much nicer than the disco. It's much more stable on the road, it feels rooted to the road. I tow a 505R with one horse weighing 560kg (weighed on a weigh bridge). Admittedly I wouldn't tow two horses with it but it does the job with the one! It manages fine with hills, even very steep hills over Devon and Somerset and it got me out of a boggy field after being parked for four hours in a monsoon when others were being towed out by tractors. I think if it doesn't feel right then you should do something about it. It annoys me how people are judged as horse owners by what they tow there horses with. Some people simply just don't have the knowledge on weights etc so its completely unintentional. If I could change one thing it would be to have a nice lorry with a luxury living haha! ;-) but I would still love to have the freelander as an everyday car as its lovely to drive.
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Oh thats a suprise!!!! a freelander tows better that a worn out knakered discovery!!! jheesus it must have been a old crate:D
 
rockysmum said:
I just think some of the people posting on here are not aware of all the facts and would not know where to find them.
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I agree that it would be great to have others who have that info to post in the clinic but until they do then those wanting extra info will have to search the internet for it

I could do a post with links to other sites such as NTTA but that is not the same as having a member on here who can answer queries
 
Can I just say, I started that clinic following a thread which argues the LEGALITY of towing.

That is why it was set up.

Rockysmum, if you feel you need to contribute your views then do so on the same thread. Don't blame ROG. He has been very helpful to many people but it is certainly NOT his responsibility to advise on towing horses.

The clinic does what it says on the tin and if it wasn't for ROG's generosity of his time for FREE. We would still have people towing ILLEGALLY!

Now if you feel that noseweight is the be all and end all of towing, then express your views. People can take it or leave it, at least they will have been warned. Or, why don't you start another thread as a sticky in CR specifically about towing horses? That would be more helpful to people who do tow horses than taking it out ion ROG. He doesn't tow horses... But then again, there is no specific law or peice of legislation that says towing horses is any different to towing any other animal or load.

I called a local horse towing instructor and asked if they teach you to tow with a horse in it. They said no. Nuff said.
 
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I have alwys read your posts with interest ROG, it is nice to have answers that are legal facts from somebody who can give a definative answer. I tow an Ifor 505 with an N reg Discovery, prviously a J reg 4 trak, both of which have been admirable. We live in deepest West Wales and like the security that dif locks and low range offer with towing on and off muddy fields plus the fact that some of our friends live off the beaten track with interesting bends and hills.
I have towed horses all over the country usually without a centre partition and not encountered any problems with snaking, however I did transport a friends Welsh Cob Stallion in his Ifor Williams cattle trailer, and as soon as it reached 50 mph it felt most unstable, but fine at 45. He tows the same trailer with an Isuzu pick up with absolutly no problem.
What is obvious from this post is that providing weight limits are not exceded, there has been no poster who has encountered safety problems due to towing with a large car.
There is an interesting article in this week's H and H '....new vehicle developments have widened the options available. Lightweight trailer models such as Equi-trek trail-trekka and the Bateson Derbycan be towed legally by some larger saloons and estate cars.' Food for thought.
 
I have experience of both towing with a large family car and a 4x4. I started towing when I was lucky enough to afford my very first trailer, which was a ifor williams 401 (mare and foal) and we had a peugeot 406 2ltr turbo diesel 110bhp. It towed like a dream and I never felt unsafe. Horse loaded like a dream and travelled perfectly. I was careful where I went and very conscious of travelling at a speed that allowed me to react to my surroundings and read the road correctly. Sadly that trailer was stolen, so I invested in a double ifor williams trailer and bought a isuzu trooper. I can honestly say I felt no safer in that than the car...other than I had a greater choice on venues to go but that wasn't a great issue!

I've now sold my double trailer and trooper and I've bought a mondeo 2.2ltr turbo diesel 155bhp and I'm going to buy a brand new HB403 in spring. I really loved my single trailer and I've done my homework with towing weight etc to ensure I'm safe and legal. This allows us to run a family car and me to be mobile with my horses. I have 3 but never travel more than one of them at a time anyway.

The trooper drove like a tractor and was all over the road...I never felt comfortable or relaxed in it really. Now having a car again, it feels more manageable financially and prefer it. I know everyone is different, but this is just my preference really. Happy towing everyone!
 
We have towed with an Estate and a 4x4. There is a greater towing weight allowance with the 4x4 than there is with the Estate. It is a HB505R

The estate returns a better MPG than the 4x4. We have only ever towed within the leagal limits with an allowance for miscalculation. We have not had a problem towing with either vehicle. As a rule if we need to move the little one's the estate will be used otherwise it will be the 4x4.

If loaded correctly and within the limits it is not unsafe to tow with an Estate otherwise the manufacturer or plating body would be liable! Public perception may be that to tow a livestock trailer of whatever type it must be pulled with a 4x4. This could result in it being percieved that a 4x4 is acceptable even though it could have a low towing capacity and put you at risk.

A 4x4 is merely a 4 wheel drive? Does this mean the Audi A4 or A6 Allroad is acceptable as it has 4 wheel drive?
 
perfect11s said:
Se my previous
post on this issue, but the nose weight business is a can of worms!! if the trailer is empty it will have a certain nose weight but when its loaded it can vary greatly depending on the placement of said load or how the load moves (horse/s) this will effect the handeling of the tow vehicle How much will depend on all sorts of factors but 4x4 or two wheel drive makes little or no difference, its distance from the tow vehicles rear axle to the tow ball, how stiff the springs are , its weight and how its balanced.. a two wheel drive van with a high payload capacity and a short distance axle to the tow ball will be a more stable tow vehicle than a 4x4 with soft suspension and a big overhang assuming they have a simalar recomended tow capacity!! so the 4x4,v 2wheel drive argument is rubbish how you drive and load your outfit is the most important thing provided its legal, but in an ideal world you want a big vehicle with lots of capacity in reserve but judging by most towing posts people are looking for the newest most fashionable vehicle thats cheapest to run even if its only just barely big enough and on the limit for instance they will buy a freelander rather than a older discovery
because impresing their friends is more important than having the right tool for the job...
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Totally agree, especially the vehicle fashion thing! Folks who can't afford a newish Disco will buy a newish Freelander instead (yes, I've seen this first hand!) 'cause they can't bare to be seen in an old car despite the fact that there are many good old Discos to be found (in fact, many say the older 300 Disco was the best of the lot). They then find that it costs a lot more to fit a new clutch in a Freelander than in a Disco (and the chances are that if they'd bought a Disco, they woudn't have needed a new clutch!)

I have a Fourtrak, not trendy at all! I have the Fourtrak 'cause I regulary drive and tow off road (fairly hill round here too) but if I didn't I would be happy to tow with a big car.
 
Keimanp said:
We have towed with an Estate and a 4x4. There is a greater towing weight allowance with the 4x4 than there is with the Estate. It is a HB505R

The estate returns a better MPG than the 4x4. We have only ever towed within the leagal limits with an allowance for miscalculation. We have not had a problem towing with either vehicle. As a rule if we need to move the little one's the estate will be used otherwise it will be the 4x4.

If loaded correctly and within the limits it is not unsafe to tow with an Estate otherwise the manufacturer or plating body would be liable! Public perception may be that to tow a livestock trailer of whatever type it must be pulled with a 4x4. This could result in it being percieved that a 4x4 is acceptable even though it could have a low towing capacity and put you at risk.

A 4x4 is merely a 4 wheel drive? Does this mean the Audi A4 or A6 Allroad is acceptable as it has 4 wheel drive?
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The Audi a4/6 allroad is more acceptable if you want to go offroad like any 4x4.

You would never use the 4wd function (if available because in some its permanent) in a 4x4 towing on the road anyway so it would still be 2wd.

A normal 2wd limits you to just roads or dry land. My A4 would be a laughing stock in a wet field!!! :D I'd have to call to rescue myself AND the horse!
 
tallyho! said:
The Audi a4/6 allroad is more acceptable if you want to go offroad like any 4x4.

You would never use the 4wd function (if available because in some its permanent) in a 4x4 towing on the road anyway so it would still be 2wd.

A normal 2wd limits you to just roads or dry land. My A4 would be a laughing stock in a wet field!!! :D I'd have to call to rescue myself AND the horse!
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Sorry I've just re-read mine, typed it very quickly (sat at work and shouldn't really be on here!)

What I was trying to convey was that a 4x4 is percieved to be better purely due to it being 4 wheel drive (I know people who do, which is scary) but you get 4 wheel drive cars/estates so does this perception of 4 wheel drive apply here? You also get 4x4 vehicles that don't have suffcient towing capacities.

I would never take my estate whilst towing off into a field, It would provide too much entertainment for those standing around!

Safety issues generally stem from driver/user ignorance. As a starter finding out if your vehicle set up is within the capabilities of the vehicle and within the requirements of the law with respect to your license then it is good and much needed advice. Those people asking and finding out are more likely to go on to look at loading and nose weights etc rather than those who carry on in blissfull ignorance in an inappropriate set up!
 
I'm sure if its legal it is safe.

For me not an option I have a 506 and travel by myself and don't want the added stress of getting stuck, REAL 4x4's all the way for me- currently use a defender but changing to Hilux.

From experience of what I've seen I'd rather tow with a volvo estate (always seem to cope with everything) of the car variety. I have personally had to push 2 different Rav 4's off flat damp but not muddy fields this summer and we only managed to get to about 5 un-cancelled shows!
 
ROG said:
In my signature I have added NTTA Guide to Safe & Legal Towing and as long as that is acceptable by admin that should appease to some degree but we really need a member who can answer queries on those issues I do not cover
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I will say it again we need a transport forum and a Q&A fact sheet sticky! the dept for transport and Vosa have various fact sheets that cover the law and this would save people having to post the same questions on a weekly basis it could also cover things like trailer maintance and repairs ,lorry FAQs, both legal and mecanical...
ADMIN?????
 
This may be slightly off-topic, but can I just remind Rockysmum that it isnt just a case of "young drivers avoiding the trailer test" or "trying to get round the laws".

Many people tow on a B licence because they already own a 'suitable' vehicle (in my case the vauxhall vectra), and simply do not have the money to afford:
a) the cost of purchasing and then running a 4x4
b) the cost of the lessons and trailer test (particularly, as Rog noted, the test does little more than ensure you know how to hitch up/reverse etc).

You have been driving for some time (45years I think you said), and so presumably automatically got the B+E licence. Have you had professional tuition or taken the test in this time? Are you aware of the costs?
 
Excellent news that Rog is looking to put more information in the clinic, thats all I ever suggested. I vote for Perfect11s to contribute as they seem to know what they are talking about.

Blythwind said:
This may be slightly off-topic, but can I just remind Rockysmum that it isnt just a case of "young drivers avoiding the trailer test" or "trying to get round the laws".

Many people tow on a B licence because they already own a 'suitable' vehicle (in my case the vauxhall vectra), and simply do not have the money to afford:
a) the cost of purchasing and then running a 4x4
b) the cost of the lessons and trailer test (particularly, as Rog noted, the test does little more than ensure you know how to hitch up/reverse etc).

You have been driving for some time (45years I think you said), and so presumably automatically got the B+E licence. Have you had professional tuition or taken the test in this time? Are you aware of the costs?
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LOL, I'm not that old, I was a kid at the time of the Rolls Royce :D :D

No I have not taken my trailer test but I do know the cost, I am about to put my daughter through it. She will tow with my Landy and 510 and to be honest I would prefer that people could do so without a test, rather than pushing the law to avoid it. But that was not the question.

nikCscott said:
I'm sure if its legal it is safe.
!
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Really !!!! Have you read some of the threads on here.

Do you honestly think this is safe. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=570550 I just thank god that the advice was to stick to level tarmac (like motorways perhaps) which means the OP wont be coming anywhere near our hills. Love the bit at the end about the horse putting a bit of weight on though :D:D


And I am not obsessed with nose weight, just wonder if some people know it exists :D For those who dont, it means the weight the trailer puts on the back end of your car. Its a strain on your suspension and tyres before you even turn a wheel. And if your car goes down under the weight it means your trailer is not towing level, unless you account for it.
 
P11s does contribute doesn't he? Even though I started the thread, ROG and p11s kind of perfected it.

Anyway, I for one am glad ROG has helped, I am no expert which is why I thought we needed it but as horse owners we can be there to highlight specific horsey things. I will hang around a bit more, maybe you rockys mum may like to drop in every now and again to give your perspectives.
 
I would like to thank everybody for their contributions to this thread :)

I am also especially grateful that it kept to topic and opposite opinions were made without it getting personal so thank you all again :):)
 
tallyho! said:
I will hang around a bit more, maybe you rockys mum may like to drop in every now and again to give your perspectives.
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God no, no-one deserves that. There wouldn't be many of these outfits on the road. When I do sums I like at least 1 tonne in reserve. Low box and diff lock in case of steep hills or mud. Proper tyres and suspension designed for the weight. I could go on and on :D :D :D
 
I think the most important issue (beyond complying with the law) is understanding the limitations of your combination. I have towed an IW505 quite happily and legally with my x trail, but I plan my route accordingly as I know it won't get me out of sticky situations on steep hills that a vehicle with a low ratio gearbox would. Beyond that I have no concerns whatsoever, I trust that the maximum towing weight for my vehicle has been safely established by the manufacturers.
 
I scrapped our estate yesterday - Very sad to see it go. We used a Mercedes E300 diesel estate, and it was fab.

We only have little ones - all of mine are under 14.2h, and OH has a little 16.2h very petite TB (he only went on his own though). The Merc went all over the country, comfortable and roomy, never missed a beat.

We have a Nissan Terrano now, and yes its comfy, but it drinks diesel compared to the Merc, and the space inside for stuff is tiny. We took one to an eventer trial at the weekend, and the car was crammed. Usually that would be half the boot.

Unfortunatly the Merc was awful on fields (rear wheel drive auto), and as we run shooting grounds, we needed a 4x4 for the winters.
 
Well after reading these posts i'm wondering why the hell have i spent the last 4 years driving a 2.7 nissan terrano? So what is legal and what isnt legal or is everything legal? confused! What could i downgrade to that could pull a 510 plus 2 500kg horses ? Must be 4x4 as i dont fancy getting stuck in the mud!
 
Its mot really a case of what is legal and not as there isn't many legalities around it. It's just down to personal opinion on safety. As you would be towing a larger box and 2 horses there wouldn't be much you could downgrade to. It may be different if for example you had a smaller box and one horse
 
i always thought the weight thing was legal, so it is just a guideline? I dont or havent towed 2 500kg horses for a long long time i normally only tow 1 or 2 ponies but no point downgrading if i decide to add to the horse collection in the near future. Guess im stuck with the tank!
 
weebarney said:
Well after reading these posts i'm wondering why the hell have i spent the last 4 years driving a 2.7 nissan terrano? So what is legal and what isnt legal or is everything legal? confused! What could i downgrade to that could pull a 510 plus 2 500kg horses ? Must be 4x4 as i dont fancy getting stuck in the mud!
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There you go, its 4 x 4 too http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/panda/60829/new-fiat-panda-4x4 You will need to ask Rog about downrating your trailer though :D :D
 
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