Mylo & Myka

It also all fits in so well with the Ross Jacobs stuff I am reading. It's not about moving their body but engaging their mind. Compliance with the body while the brain is worried about other 'stuff' is not the goal. Ross and Joe both teach that the route to connection/harmony is by ensuring the horses is mentally completely with you.

I was also talking to him about different approaches to backing - I have been getting a lot of advice on when and how! From get on in stable so there is less space to run off, buck; lean over and get led around so they can't see you above them; get on on the yard so they are worried about the concrete and so won't explode. All of that probably works fine. But within this approach the focus is always on the horse's mind being with you. So getting on on concrete might stop them exploding but only because they are worried about slipping. Not because they are 'with' you. Getting on so they can't see you means they don't really undertsand what is happening etc.

I am not criticising those approaches at all. I know plenty of horses who were backed like that and they are doing fine. But those strategies aren't consistent with this way of working. I am keen to learn a way of training as much as just getting the job done, which can be achieved in many, many different ways.
 
I like the flag. Hermosa is trained to the flag, though I haven't used it in a while. Did a little groundwork a couple days ago mid-schooling session, to demo some stuff for a friend who was curious about it (joys of the hackamore...the in-built lead rope), and half-arsed waving a dressage whip/your hand works too.

When she was a baby, she was really reactive to things flapping around her legs. Would levitate. So the flag was very helpful because you could touch her legs with it and not be in the way if she did a harrier jump thing. Only after she couldn't care less about the flag touching her anywhere did I train her to move in response to it.

And talk about payoff. One thing about the hackamore is that the end of the lead rope sometimes unties itself from the saddle and winds up around her legs. She just does an emergency stop, then, "Mum...uh...fix it." But very calm. Nae drama.

I did the desensitisation part of the flag work with Fin, but not the moving part. There are only so many uphill battles I want in my life. If I could achieve the same goal with the horse, but with less work.... But making a horse like Fin into a functional citizen in the equine-human collective is all about triage. Different from bringing on youngsters.

For backing Hermosa, I just got on in the 30x90 outdoor arena with someone holding the lead. I had spent * a lot* of time lying sprawled on my stomach across her back. The first person for the first ride was a friend who had a fair bit of experience with backing babies, having worked at a raicing yard when she was young. Then the second one was a friend who had backed her own horse but that was it. Then I started using OH. In hindsight, I probably should have used OH or friend #2 for very first ride, because friend #1 was very tense, anticipating the horse exploding and probably visualising some of the antics of the baby racehorses. OH and friend #2 were very much, "It'll be all good." Luckily Hermosa isn't bothered by that sort of tension in humans who aren't me, so it was fine.

Our third or fourth pony ride was on the trails. I was fairly certain she wasn't going to buck me off. OH at the end of the lead, taking the photo.

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Ample Prosecco said:
It also all fits in so well with the Ross Jacobs stuff I am reading. It's not about moving their body but engaging their mind. Compliance with the body while the brain is worried about other 'stuff' is not the goal. Ross and Joe both teach that the route to connection/harmony is by ensuring the horses is mentally completely with you.

I was also talking to him about different approaches to backing - I have been getting a lot of advice on when and how! From get on in stable so there is less space to run off, buck; lean over and get led around so they can't see you above them; get on on the yard so they are worried about the concrete and so won't explode. All of that probably works fine. But within this approach the focus is always on the horse's mind being with you. So getting on on concrete might stop them exploding but only because they are worried about slipping. Not because they are 'with' you. Getting on so they can't see you means they don't really undertsand what is happening etc.

I am not criticising those approaches at all. I know plenty of horses who were backed like that and they are doing fine. But those strategies aren't consistent with this way of working. I am keen to learn a way of training as much as just getting the job done, which can be achieved in many, many different ways.
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Yes, i also don't understand the handler feeding treats while a rider gets up for the first time

Why would you want the horse's focus anywhere else but on the rider?!
 
southerncomfort said:
Yes, i also don't understand the handler feeding treats while a rider gets up for the first time

Why would you want the horse's focus anywhere else but on the rider?!
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I'm a long way from expert but have backed and ridden away a number of different types: from cobby ponies to very sharp sport horses (all my own or for us as family) as has my OH. It is ALWAYS about the horse's mental comfort, relaxation and trust first, though obviously the horse should be physically ready. Ime, which is limited to the above, if you are questioning if the horse or you are ready, then you are probably not. It should feel like another step, not a huge deal. You should feel like you know what to expect under normal circs and how you might cope with things going sideways. Lots of tools in the box! For us, it takes as long as it takes and we all need to be open to help too. It is a huge privilege to back any horse, to take it's trust to ride it and ask stuff of them - we should take nothing for granted really but I increasingly wonder if our sports horse culture normalizes and underplays the very basic notion of us taking that trust. It's like we expect horses bred for sport to understand those things because of our engineering their existence somehow...I'm not aiming that at @Ample Prosecco of course but more generally - it's something I am really interested in and have been thinking about a lot lately!
 
I imagine most people would say that trust, partnership and good preparation are important. But what does that mean in practice? Holding an ideal in mind is great but it's the skill in reading horses and the timing and feel that takes so many years to acquire, even after deciding you want to focus on that. Is a behvaiour worry, distraction or over-stepping? Is the horse relaxed or shut down? Does the horse understand the question? Are you noticing and rewarding every try? The more I learn the more I realise how much communication I am missing or misinterpreting!
 
Ample Prosecco said:
I imagine most people would say that trust, partnership and good preparation are important. But what does that mean in practice? Holding an ideal in mind is great but it's the skill in reading horses and the timing and feel that takes so many years to acquire, even after deciding you want to focus on that. Is a behvaiour worry, distraction or over-stepping? Is the horse relaxed or shut down? Does the horse understand the question? Are you noticing and rewarding every try? The more I learn the more I realise how much communication I am missing or misinterpreting!
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You are so right. And it’s a skill in its own right to know where ‘your’ experience limit is and how tolerant or forgiving in any mistakes a particular horse may be. Young horses fascinate me.
 
ihatework said:
You are so right. And it’s a skill in its own right to know where ‘your’ experience limit is and how tolerant or forgiving in any mistakes a particular horse may be. Young horses fascinate me.
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They fascinate me too. How they react, how they learn its all so individual.

I had a local horsemanship pro type lady come to help me with one of my homebred youngsters last week. It was fascinating, genuinely keen to learn more.
 
southerncomfort said:
Yes, i also don't understand the handler feeding treats while a rider gets up for the first time

Why would you want the horse's focus anywhere else but on the rider?!
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Surely it is about timing. My horse likes treats. I give them to him out hacking sometimes when he is anxious. Turning his head and eating a treat distracts him and calms him, and give him something else to think about.

You wouldnt give a treat whilst rider mounts. But once rider mounted and horse it thinking about the rider up there, quietly offering a treat to chew doesnt seem a bad idea.
 
Fieldlife said:
Surely it is about timing. My horse likes treats. I give them to him out hacking sometimes when he is anxious. Turning his head and eating a treat distracts him and calms him, and give him something else to think about.

You wouldnt give a treat whilst rider mounts. But once rider mounted and horse it thinking about the rider up there, quietly offering a treat to chew doesnt seem a bad idea.
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Of course, but I was clearly talking specifically about the handler feeding treats while the rider gets on for the very first time....and I mean a constant supply of treats.

So the horse's focus is almost entirely on the handler, and therefore not engaging in the process.

I'm absolutely on board with the idea of sweetening the deal, and associating a rider with pleasant experiences, but what's happening in my example is food being used as a distraction. My feeling is that if either rider or handler thinks that a food distraction is necessary, then maybe the horse isn't ready.
 
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I use hand treats sparingly, but I tend to treat as a reward for a correct response not to bribe or distract. Eg a carrot after beung caught. When I am teaching something new I want the horse to be focused on me and the task, not distracted by a treat.

I actually gave up on clicker many years ago, as I found even using food as a reward/reinforcer seemed to be a distraction.The horse was just focused on 'when is my next treat coming' . So it was motivating but also distracting.

But each to their own. I am just saying what I am doing and why. There are many roads to Rome!
 
Ample Prosecco said:
I imagine most people would say that trust, partnership and good preparation are important. But what does that mean in practice? Holding an ideal in mind is great but it's the skill in reading horses and the timing and feel that takes so many years to acquire, even after deciding you want to focus on that. Is a behvaiour worry, distraction or over-stepping? Is the horse relaxed or shut down? Does the horse understand the question? Are you noticing and rewarding every try? The more I learn the more I realise how much communication I am missing or misinterpreting!
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"Is a behvaiour worry, distraction or over-stepping? Is the horse relaxed or shut down? Does the horse understand the question? Are you noticing and rewarding every try?"

Those questions, to me, are basic questions. I have to understand and notice all of those things correctly in order to actually have a successful training relationship and partnership with my horse, IMO.

Backing my young horse was 0% interesting and this was likely due to all do the work I'd done prior to swinging a leg over, and because he was ready.

I think I'm a bit fortunate in some ways because I have a natural feeling of sorts. I never really knew that until a few years back when someone told me. Then I started to realize how many people don't have that. Part of it is due to how I was introduced to horses, who I was around, and just me as a person, I think.

With treats, mine only get something if they are out of my space...which leads to him doing this weird neck craned/looking away thing and people wonder what the heck he is doing 😂 it's his form of begging 🙄 so I'm more sparing about the use of food.
 
Myka has been with me almost 8 weeks. It feels longer!

Just re-read my post about handtreats. YO gave all liveries a goodie bag of pony treats so I decided to just reward Myka a couple of times for a good try. OMG never again. We went from attentive and focused to WHERE IS MY TREAT!!!! Mugging me whenever I got anywhere in reach. But the goodie bag was still pretty full so I thought ok fine, I will teach her not to mug - always lesson one in any treat training. I started reinforcing moving her head away (as opposed to moving it closer to mug me) intending to shape up to her being attentive, but not mugging. She was just a quivering ball of anticipation, and though I succeeded with the anti-mugging lesson, I got zero meaningful work from her the rest of the session. So my sense that treats are a distraction was pretty solidly reinforced. For her anyway. So I have binned the treats and won't ever treat her again while we are working.

Today I just ran through some groundwork that we have done a few times but not recently. And I am pleased with how responsive she is. These lessons seem to stick without regular drilling. The first exercise was getting her moving up into trot and back down to walk just with my diaphragm. Then some sideways stuff. Then leading again, matching with my feet.

Apologies for the straw in her tail. She was pulled from the field and worked in the arena without returning to her stable because the horse she shares with would freak if I took her out of sight.

She's a good girl.

 
She's looking good in that video!

That's interesting about the treats as I've never had a problem with hand feeding treats with mine (apart from the accidental emergency stop I installed on a riding school pony). In fact, clicker training small tricks to my Little Madam seemed to open her up and allow her to show more personality, before she was always a bit on the reserved side of polite. However, with dogs, some are over eager, like my aussie, Liberty, I stopped using "treats" for training her and instead used plain boring dog kibble. Plenty enough for to reward her, but not so good it's blowing her mind with eagerness. Varying the value of the treat depending on the behaviour required works really well for both my dogs and my horses. Little Madam normally works for small pieces of carrots, but when I wanted her to follow me in a trot or a canter, that required apple to get the behaviour I wanted.
 
Yes I think Myka is the labrador of the horse world. Overly excited by food and very friendly and exuberant! Lottie was not bothered by treats at all. Amber liked them but never demanded them.
 
She is beautiful.

I guess the earlier discussion on this thread about +R training suggests that if you are really determined, you can learn how to train with treats and not have the horse get over-excited. But I think you need to be very, very committed to clicker training as an ideology to do that because it's seems like much more work than using pressure-release.

As I said, it works with Hermosa because she just doesn't get into a state about treats. I use maybe 60% -R and 40% +R with her. The hard thing with her about +R is that the 'shaping' can be very repetitive (maybe that's my ineptitude...I don't know) and she just gets bored. The treat isn't interesting enough to make doing kind of the same thing over and over again engaging enough.
 
My older horse gets lots of treats and each one seems a surprise to him, he never mugs and never has.

My current 2 x 3yros are exactly like Myka; all sense goes out of the window at a whiff of a treat so they just don't get them at all.
Thankfully both are happy and much better behaved with a scratch and a positive word!
 
Caol Ila said:
She is beautiful.

I guess the earlier discussion on this thread about +R training suggests that if you are really determined, you can learn how to train with treats and not have the horse get over-excited. But I think you need to be very, very committed to clicker training as an ideology to do that because it's seems like much more work than using pressure-release.

As I said, it works with Hermosa because she just doesn't get into a state about treats. I use maybe 60% -R and 40% +R with her. The hard thing with her about +R is that the 'shaping' can be very repetitive (maybe that's my ineptitude...I don't know) and she just gets bored. The treat isn't interesting enough to make doing kind of the same thing over and over again engaging enough.
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This is very interesting to me, I tried a bit of R+ and I will admit pretty complete ineptitude but I found with D a mix of if I made the reward less exciting (boring chaff) then she got bored of the repetition but it I made it tasty then she got completely distracted by the treat itself and quite stressed. She's very polite and doesn't mug but she'd run through a repertoire of behaviours to try and get the treat. I put it down to being a native 😅
 
Ample Prosecco said:
Myka has been with me almost 8 weeks. It feels longer!

Just re-read my post about handtreats. YO gave all liveries a goodie bag of pony treats so I decided to just reward Myka a couple of times for a good try. OMG never again. We went from attentive and focused to WHERE IS MY TREAT!!!! Mugging me whenever I got anywhere in reach. But the goodie bag was still pretty full so I thought ok fine, I will teach her not to mug - always lesson one in any treat training. I started reinforcing moving her head away (as opposed to moving it closer to mug me) intending to shape up to her being attentive, but not mugging. She was just a quivering ball of anticipation, and though I succeeded with the anti-mugging lesson, I got zero meaningful work from her the rest of the session. So my sense that treats are a distraction was pretty solidly reinforced. For her anyway. So I have binned the treats and won't ever treat her again while we are working.

Today I just ran through some groundwork that we have done a few times but not recently. And I am pleased with how responsive she is. These lessons seem to stick without regular drilling. The first exercise was getting her moving up into trot and back down to walk just with my diaphragm. Then some sideways stuff. Then leading again, matching with my feet.

Apologies for the straw in her tail. She was pulled from the field and worked in the arena without returning to her stable because the horse she shares with would freak if I took her out of sight.

She's a good girl.

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Horse treats, by nature of being so much sugarier than what horses usually get, are very very arousing so a horse being unable to focus in the situation you describe is pretty natural. I’m willing to bet that if you were rewarding with celery or small bits of carrot, you would get a much easier horse to work with. Or just use scratches if she finds that rewarding.

You absolutely do not need to be a clicker fiend to get a horse to work well with food rewards; 9/10 times lower value reinforcement and access to another food source will drop arousal rates hugely and give you a much easier horse to work with. (And purists would say clicker training is separate to R+ anyway. If anything, from what you describe, Myka would make a good candidate for proper clicker.)

You can also train them to be calmer around food. So, with training a horse not to mug, once they’ve got the gist of it, you start waiting for just a little calmness - even just a split second exhale - and then you mark and reward for that. That would help with less of the quivering anticipation.

Plus, I do think avoiding R+ is leaving a training hole. Obviously, Myka’s only just started her learning, so this doesn’t apply to her, but surely good training means a horse can still cope when over-aroused, and one way of training that is working them with treats as a controlled high arousal environment.

I just find it funny that impulse control is such a big part of horse training - in the context of controlling the impulse to fight/flight - but people don’t think to strengthen that by training the horse to show impulse control in other fields.

Anyway that’s just my two cents. Obviously no one needs to train with treats, and I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t. I just don’t like this attitude shared by a lot of horse folk where, if the horse doesn’t learn with R-, it’s the handler’s fault for not setting them up to succeed. But if the horse doesn’t learn with R+, it’s because the horse isn’t ‘suited’ with absolutely no consideration as to whether the handler has set the horse up to succeed.

And I do think all horses and handlers should have a basic understanding of R+ just in case it’s ever needed for veterinary/husbandry behaviours.
 
My gelding was similar with treats, full-on treat monster mode! He lost his focus completely. Yet my mare was fine and understood their purpose quickly.

Myka is gorgeous 😍
 
I buy very low sugar treats. Ran out this summer and Hermosa was on carrots for about a week. She didn’t go nuts or get excited about the carrots themselves, but because she’s fairly clicker trained, she gets a lot in the course of our day together. A week of doing that on carrots, and she became a spooky idiot to ride. Cut carrots, and back to normal. Decided I wasn’t doing that again!

She’s also learned that the click noise is a reward in and of itself, so I don’t always have to follow it up with a treat. Means I can use it with ridden work, combined with pressure-release (cause those are …you know… the actual aids). She’s the only horse I’ve had where that has actually worked.
 
@stangs very interesting post. I meant no criticism of R+ approaches. I’ve no doubt any problems with it could be overcome or avoided by a more skilled trainer.

I had not thought of it in terms of a training gap- as opposed to just something not suited to all horses. Food for thought!
 
Well that didn’t go to plan 😔.

Myka had a week off while I was away over Christmas. First session back was Thursday and she was fantastic. Did it without the saddle to ease her back into work with as little stress as possible. Totally chilled, had remembered everything, no reaction to the flag on her while moving. Stood perfectly still at mounting block and let me wave flag above her, leant across, patted her all over from above. Fab.

Yesterday I planned to repeat all of that with saddle. When I got to arena another horse was in there having a groundwork lesson but I figured she needed to learn to work around other horses so might as well start now. Started without saddle and just ran through all the basics she knows well. Super pleased at how focused she was despite the other horse. Then I went over to gate and tacked her up. No reaction - all seemed fine. She’s worked well several times with the saddle on.

I led her away from the gate and she completely exploded as soon as she moved. Never seen a reaction like that. Not even the very first time she felt the saddle on her back. I had no chance of holding on to her and she circled the arena bucking/bronccing for about 10 seconds then stood still trembling and let me approach her and pick up the line. She’d bitten her tongue, there was blood all over her lips. It was awful and I felt so bad. But I just don’t know why the saddle felt so threatening to her that time.

The other horse left and she barely even noticed. She was just stationary, shaking. I stroked her and slowly encouraged her to start working again- flexing laterally, lowering her head. When she seemed calmer I could check her mouth and thankfully it was superficial and had already stopped bleeding. Backed her up a step or 2. When that was calm I led her forward a step at a time till she stopped flinching every time she moved. Then out on a circle in walk. Eventually we repeated basic movements in walk and trot with the saddle and she seemed to have re-discovered that it wasn’t hurting her.

So session ended ok though her adrenaline was still very up.

No clue why she was so scared. Wondering if something pinched or hurt her somehow? And then once she reacted then the saddle 'attacked her' by the stirrpus banging etc, so it spiralled. Or is this normal baby horse stuff. One day fine and the next something feels slightly different and there is a big reaction? I am trying to prepare her so well for each step so there is maybe some uncertainly but never panic. But maybe that is just not realistic 100%?

Anyway I will message Joe for some wisdom and I’m very happy that he will be doing most of the ‘firsts’ (and 2nds, 5ths, 10ths…) not me!
 
It's hard to say without being there (even when you're there, it can be hard to say!), but it sounds like maybe she trigger stacked. She was fine with the other horse in the arena, ok with other horse plus saddle, but other horse plus saddle, plus movement was too much. It is also possible that something outside of the arena (sight, sound, smell) put her over the edge.
Also, how many times has she had the saddle on and do you normally put it on by yourself or do you have help? Has anything changed in the manner or moment of putting it on?
I'm sure you've already planned to take a step back for the next session, but also remember to cut yourself some slack, you're both learning to know each other and where your limits are in a given situation.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Young horses, eh?

It’s easy to be wise after the event, but did you have the stirrups down as you first asked her move with the saddle on? If so, maybe the saddle and the stirrups together were a bit much after her time off.
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No stirrups were rolled up but came down during the explosion. I should have removed them completely in retrospect.
 
Titchy Reindeer said:
It's hard to say without being there (even when you're there, it can be hard to say!), but it sounds like maybe she trigger stacked. She was fine with the other horse in the arena, ok with other horse plus saddle, but other horse plus saddle, plus movement was too much. It is also possible that something outside of the arena (sight, sound, smell) put her over the edge.
Also, how many times has she had the saddle on and do you normally put it on by yourself or do you have help? Has anything changed in the manner or moment of putting it on?
I'm sure you've already planned to take a step back for the next session, but also remember to cut yourself some slack, you're both learning to know each other and where your limits are in a given situation.
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She’s had the saddle on about 12 times. Everything has been done stepwise: saddle on/off no movement. Saddle on movement with no stirrups. Progressing to walk/trot with stirrups up, then down. There was some minor jumping around when she first trotted with the saddle on which was weeks ago. Since then she has seemed completely unconcerned by it.

Re trigger stacking that makes sense but worries me because I think this goes back to my skills (or lack thereoff) in reading her. I really wasn’t sure how she’d react to another horse but she just seemed totally fine. Listening to me. Calm controlled responses. But she probably wasn’t.

Unless something totally random happened just as she moved which I didn’t notice.

Oh well it’s a steep learning curve for sure!
 
Maybe just a bit to much to think about with the other horse there as well as the work she was doing.

Don't be hard on yourself AE. I doubt any of us would have approached things differently and would have used the other horse in there as an opportunity for learning as you did. Now you've had this reaction you've identified an area to work on. Lots of groundwork in the arena with other horses milling around but without the extra (all be it small) pressure of the saddle on until she is 100% settled and you are comfortable.

Good idea to give Joe a call. I'm sure he will reasure you that you did the right thing by ending on a good positive note.
 
Helpful call from Joe. He thinks the most likely explanation is that when I was tacking up, she was intently focused on the other horse and not really paying any attention to what I was doing. So when she then moved, the saddle took her by surprise and she jumped forward. Then the saddle started 'chasing' her and so it escalated. That makes sense as looking back she was staring at the other horse when stood at the gate being tacked up.

With young horses he makes a point of being quite 'noisy' with the saddle every time he tacks up, so there is no chance they don't know they have it on.

Lesson learned. He was also quite reassuring - you can't anticipate everything, and every horse you train takes you by surprise from time to time, and teaches you something new to take forward to the next horse.
 
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