Mysterious ubtle intermittent lameness - could it be navicular or just a hoof thing?

[TotalMadgeness]

All the symptoms sound similar to my big horse who has thin soles, small hooves and a big heavy body. He becomes especially pottery after walking roads/gravel (with or without shoes) and usually he becomes more obvious every spring/summer as the ground hardens. He is now managed by keeping the weight off and special shoes with pads. In the early years (prediagnosis) it was a recurring cycle of intermittent lameness / not quite right / a bit stiff. So as a starter for ten I'd be wanting my vet to xray the hooves/fetlocks if it was me...

 

[ester]

IMO he doesn't look lame/presents as stiff because he is equally lame on both sides. I suspect he'd look dog lame if you nerve blocked one.

 

[Marilyn91]

All the symptoms sound similar to my big horse who has thin soles, small hooves and a big heavy body. He becomes especially pottery after walking roads/gravel (with or without shoes) and usually he becomes more obvious every spring/summer as the ground hardens. He is now managed by keeping the weight off and special shoes with pads. In the early years (prediagnosis) it was a recurring cycle of intermittent lameness / not quite right / a bit stiff. So as a starter for ten I'd be wanting my vet to xray the hooves/fetlocks if it was me...

Thanks for sharing. She gets noticeable worse if I go for a hack or even long walk on roads or slightly stoney paths. The ground getting harder in summer would explain the timing, because it wasn't this bad in winter (although I did suspect she wasn't 100%).

What are the shoes with pads like? Are they just normal ones, or aluminum / duplo etc? She's always been barefoot so I'm a bit clueless when it comes to shoeing.

 

[Marilyn91]

IMO he doesn't look lame/presents as stiff because he is equally lame on both sides. I suspect he'd look dog lame if you nerve blocked one.

Thanks for the reassurance. After the vet's text saying "The horse isn't lame in the videos!" I was starting to doubt my sanity / eyesight. If I hadn't already made the appointment with her I would probably have gotten a different vet because I don't have a great feeling about this one. But hopefully she will still be able to see something during the tests.

 

[Gloi]

Another update - my vet looked at the videos and says she's not lame, but she doesn't look right to me. The vet will come tomorrow to do a full investigation, and she asked me to work her today in the hope that the lameness will be more noticeable tomorrow. Now I'm thinking probably I should have just got the farrier on the job, or maybe it's all in my head.

I don't know how the vet can say she's not lame if they've seen the videos.

.

 

[ponynutz]

Vet possibly saying not noticeably traditionally lame. Given vet is still coming out I'd say it's not all in your head and vet agrees something's going on even if very minor. Might be a good idea to get a second opinion anyway - often two pairs of hands are better than one in mysterious symptoms cases.

She does look quite relaxed in the videos though, not particularly wide-eyed or anxious of pain. She looks quite docile. Also wouldn't say she'd dangerously over-weight just a bit pot-bellied. A careful diet and letting her out in a starvation paddock to walk and move around will help with that.

I have nothing to add to what others have said so good luck with the vet call out and tests.

 

[AmyMay]

Also wouldn't say she'd dangerously over-weight just a bit pot-bellied.

I have to take issue with this, with absolutely no intention of wishing to be hurtful to the OP.

But this little horse is very overweight, not simply pot bellied.

 

[misst]

OP one of mine was retired and I did not realise how fat she had got until my daughter posted a picture on here for something else - I was totally shocked - it had just crept up on me. Seeing a photo in a different "envirnoment" made me look at her and my first thought was "my god how did that pony get that fat"!. I wasn't neglectful but I had stopped "seeing" her if that made sense. Your pony looks like a younger version of mine at that time. I think yours is pretty overweight. I would be another vote for treat as lami until proven otherwise.

 

[ponynutz]

I have to take issue with this, with absolutely no intention of wishing to be hurtful to the OP.

But this little horse is very overweight, not simply pot bellied.

No she is definitely very overweight - just not unrecoverable in a short space of time and without exercise is all I meant.

 

[phizz4]

This may not be the answer to your problem but one of our mares had intermittent lameness, which eased off after a mile or so of hacking and the horse osteopath diagnosed it as a neck muscle problem on one side and, after treatment, she wasn't lame any more.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I'd be interested to know where you're getting that information from? I've personally known hundreds of horses in my life and never heard of one of them diagnosed with arthritis at or before the age of 6. I've only heard of arthritis in horses that young on the Internet and usually due to an injury.

("Average" is definitely incorrect, sorry to be picky, because if that was true then for every 15 year old diagnosed with arthritis there would have to be nine 5 year olds and that clearly isn't the case. )
.

This is what my vet told me.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I'd be interested to know where you're getting that information from? I've personally known hundreds of horses in my life and never heard of one of them diagnosed with arthritis at or before the age of 6. I've only heard of arthritis in horses that young on the Internet and usually due to an injury.

("Average" is definitely incorrect, sorry to be picky, because if that was true then for every 15 year old diagnosed with arthritis there would have to be nine 5 year olds and that clearly isn't the case. )
.

But you are not a vet who literally spends their days treating lame horses.

 

[Marilyn91]

The other thing would be to test those deep sulcus in the front frogs for being sensitive and to make sure there is no thrush in there. However ruling out laminitis is the first thing

I actually think this is it. She doesn't have obvious, smelly thrush along the outside of the frog, but I think she might have a deep central sulcus infection. At risk of sounding like a bit of an idiot, I didn't really notice the "butt crack in the frog" until your comment and watching some YouTube videos. I came across this while doing some research:

“If you take your horse out for a good trot, the strides should be nice and long, and your horse should land with his heels touching the ground first before rolling forward onto his toes. If your horse’s strides seem short and stubby as compared to normal, you should definitely check for thrush.”

"And even though the infection will be highly painful for your horse, it might not even show signs of lameness, as the horse could simply be altering his strides to avoid putting pressure on the sore frog and instead be landing with his toe first."

https://scootboots.com/blogs/blog/h...n-horses-and-treat-it-effectively-scoot-boots

I'll see what the vet says later, and I'm still waiting for the farrier to call me back, but I think we have our culprit.

 

[Frano]

Connemara have a known problem with their hooves in certain blood lines, can’t remember what it is called .May be worth speaking to the breed society, or try googling. .

 

[ycbm]

But you are not a vet who literally spends their days treating lame horses.

You got the information that the average age of horses being diagnosed with arthritis is 6 from a vet?

I wouldn't personally use that vet again.

Vets spending days treating lame horses are not diagnosing nine 5 year olds with arthritis for every 15 year old they diagnose with arthritis.
.

 

[Marilyn91]

Connemara have a known problem with their hooves in certain blood lines, can’t remember what it is called .May be worth speaking to the breed society, or try googling. .

She is negative for Hoof Wall Separation Disease (HWSD) so it's not that

 

[ycbm]

I actually think this is it. She doesn't have obvious, smelly thrush along the outside of the frog, but I think she might have a deep central sulcus infection. At risk of sounding like a bit of an idiot, I didn't really notice the "butt crack in the frog" until your comment and watching some YouTube videos. I came across this while doing some research:

“If you take your horse out for a good trot, the strides should be nice and long, and your horse should land with his heels touching the ground first before rolling forward onto his toes. If your horse’s strides seem short and stubby as compared to normal, you should definitely check for thrush.”

"And even though the infection will be highly painful for your horse, it might not even show signs of lameness, as the horse could simply be altering his strides to avoid putting pressure on the sore frog and instead be landing with his toe first."

https://scootboots.com/blogs/blog/h...n-horses-and-treat-it-effectively-scoot-boots

I'll see what the vet says later, and I'm still waiting for the farrier to call me back, but I think we have our culprit.

I think laminitis is far more likely to be causing what those videos are showing. I'd certainly have her off the grass for a few days to see if she changes if she was mine.
.

 

[Sossigpoker]

You got the information that the average age of horses being diagnosed with arthritis is 6 from a vet?

I wouldn't personally use that vet again.

Vets spending days treating lame horses are not diagnosing nine 5 year olds with arthritis for every 15 year old they diagnose with arthritis.
.

I'm very happy with my vet , thank you.
All you need to do is visit the various arthritis groups on Facebook to see how many young horses are affected by it.

 

[Gloi]

I'm very happy with my vet , thank you.
All you need to do is visit the various arthritis groups on Facebook to see how many young horses are affected by it.

Do they give the breeding of these horses diagnosed young?

 

[sbloom]

Seeing as arthritis is joint inflammation I see the vet's point, 6 does seem very young but I can see it might be possible if we include all the "DJD" diseases, which we should.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Do they give the breeding of these horses diagnosed young?

When I said that I was horrified that my 8 YO has an almost fused hock , she said that the average age for arthritis diagnosis is now 6. Which tbh horrified me even more.
We didn't enter into a detailed discussion about it.
Given that we see 5 year old big warmbloods doing advanced dressage and sports horses jumping huge fences, sadly this statistic isn't that surprising.
I was just hoping that it wouldn't affect my horse for another few years. I suspect he's been hammered down roads in Ireland which has probably caused the damage

 

[Sossigpoker]

Seeing as arthritis is joint inflammation I see the vet's point, 6 does seem very young but I can see it might be possible if we include all the "DJD" diseases, which we should.

Exactly. And there's juvenile arthritis too.
But I do feel this is a sign of the times we live in . We breed them big and work them too hard and too early. (I mean we as in the equestrian community ).

 

[sbloom]

Exactly. And there's juvenile arthritis too.
But I do feel this is a sign of the times we live in . We breed them big and work them too hard and too early. (I mean we as in the equestrian community ).

I think you know I'm 100% with you, whack a mole injections and little attempt to truly cure the cause, or change what we do with horses long term. We also breed them elastic, that's a huge issue.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I think you know I'm 100% with you, whack a mole injections and little attempt to truly cure the cause, or change what we do with horses long term. We also breed them elastic, that's a huge issue.

It all comes down to money. No producer is going to keep a young horse at home taking it easy when the horse could be out there winning money and prestige - when the joints fail, just stick a needle in there , job done !

 

[sbloom]

It all comes down to money. No producer is going to keep a young horse at home taking it easy when the horse could be out there winning money and prestige - when the joints fail, just stick a needle in there , job done !

But also why would they breed a horse for long term soundness when it won't win, even though the market for sound, RC-mid level competition horses is HUGE...it's just we've all been duped to look for this artificial movement, even in natives, cobs, crosses...it's gone across the whole industry.

 

[Birker2020]

When I said that I was horrified that my 8 YO has an almost fused hock , she said that the average age for arthritis diagnosis is now 6. Which tbh horrified me even more.

I firmly believe that this is in part due to the artificial surfaces that we use on an almost constant basis these days whereas in the 80's and 90's most work was either done on the roads, on a hunting field or an actual field.

And more people lunge than ever before, on tight circles, with all manner of gadgets to put a horse into an artificial outline. This increases the pressure on their joints and as most of the time they are on the forehand and not carrying themselves correctly it makes a bad situation even worse.

And I reckon the other reason is because people seem to breed very recklessly these days without consideration to a horses temperament or whether their confirmation is correct, thus a massive influx of horses that simply will not last as long as those horses produced CAREFULLY and THOUGHTFULLY by experienced breeders of the past. i.e if its a mare and broken shove it in foal, I've seen this so often these days. Who cares if it has a club foot or OCD or a vicious temperament?

 

[ycbm]

I'm very happy with my vet , thank you.
All you need to do is visit the various arthritis groups on Facebook to see how many young horses are affected by it.

I know how many young horses are affected by it. Nobody is denying that there are a lot of young horses getting arthritis and I'm as annoyed by the breeding that causes that as anyone.

But since practically every horse on the planet over the age of 20 will have it, an average (arithmetic mean) age of 6 for diagnosis is pretty much statistically impossible. I'm sorry it seems I'm being argumentative about this but I don't think it's helpful for people to be getting scared that it's everyday common in leisure horses to lose a horse of 6 with arthritis, because it isn't.
.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

IMO he doesn't look lame/presents as stiff because he is equally lame on both sides. I suspect he'd look dog lame if you nerve blocked one.

I thought the same, he isn’t ‘flowing’ in trot at all and looks uncomfortable. The Welsh B on our yard moved similar and had laminitis, it seems to flare up and down all the time. Took totally off grass and noticed a big improvement.

Interested to hear the vets opinion once they’ve been.

 

[Gloi]

All the horses I know diagnosed with arthritis at a young age have been big moving warmblood types. The natives I know with it have usually been 15+

 

[Marilyn91]

Thanks everyone for your precious help so far.

The vet cancelled yesterday because she was sick and the next possible appointment would be next week. But today the farrier came. He tested her hooves for sensitivity and found some pain around the toe. He said she's sore on all feet but especially the front left.

When he trimmed her hooves he slightly adapted the hoof angles to relieve the coffin bone. Then he put Duplo shoes on her (she has always been barefoot) and she seems to be going more freely already. Here's a video of her trotting today: https://youtube.com/shorts/kCTABugAk0U?feature=share

Hopefully I'll be able to exercise her more now and we'll be able to get her weight down. She isn't on a grass field, so "taking her off the grass" as many recommended isn't an option