Myths and Bits. Makes you think.

[TrasaM]

An interesting series of videos here. I'm attaching part 1 and 2.
In part 2 a link is made between gastric ulcers and bit use.

The question about which bit to use comes up on the forum quite often. It often seems that the bit is our guarantee that the brakes work and that we have control. Yet anyone who's had a horse run off with them will know that the bit does very little if the horse decides to flee.
Some very interesting points to consider here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfw5KIs28Ws&sns=em

And part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHb9KXINRs&sns=em

 

[amandap]

Yes, lots of very valid and thought provoking points imo. I've seen these before but so wish they had made them a bit better/clearer.

I feel a long, heated thread coming on...

 

[fattylumpkin]

I'm not buying the idea that riding long and low wastes a horse's back muscles and causes nerve pain. I think many of the facts they used to address various myths were misguided too, just seems like another video from someone who has had success riding tackless and resents the idea of using a horse for any kind of competetive sport. I get that, I'm not 100% happy with the equine sport industry either, but tackless isn't the answer to making all that go away.

 

[doriangrey]

An interesting series of videos here. I'm attaching part 1 and 2.
In part 2 a link is made between gastric ulcers and bit use.

The question about which bit to use comes up on the forum quite often. It often seems that the bit is our guarantee that the brakes work and that we have control. Yet anyone who's had a horse run off with them will know that the bit does very little if the horse decides to flee.
Some very interesting points to consider here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfw5KIs28Ws&sns=em

And part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHb9KXINRs&sns=em

I won't be bitting my pony when I start her. There are a lot of people who ride bitless on here without a problem.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I watched about 20 seconds and the music and unreadable text is enough to put me off going any further. I would be interested in a more scientific article.

Bits do work otherwise why would we use them? I certainly find that hacking my WB in a two ring made a huge difference compared to a loose ring snaffle when he does his now very rare signature whip around and bog off. I can ride him on the buckle 90% of the time but a bit sure comes in handy at times. It's not a guarantee you can stop but not having one is not a guarantee you can stop either.

 

[amandap]

Here's an article along similar lines and using some of the same references.
http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Downloads/ToBitorNottoBit.pdf

 

[TrasaM]

Here's an article along similar lines and using some of the same references.
http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Downloads/ToBitorNottoBit.pdf

Good article .. I've always worried about bit use since I started riding. I've ridden so many horses now who have not been happy about the bit, snatching head shaking and tensing yet I'm always told they are just being difficult. When doing the Masterson Method weekend course I got a chance to do a manoeuvre which involved pressing my thumb against the horses palette. I was amazed how soft it was as I though it'd be more like ours. This is what the jointed bits jab each time we pull on the reins.

SussexbytheSea Yes, I'd agree, the text on the ones I've linked to is hard to read in parts.

 

[amandap]

I watched about 20 seconds and the music and unreadable text is enough to put me off going any further. I would be interested in a more scientific article.

http://www.vetequineteam.com/files/Patologias Dentárias em Cavalos de Performance.pdf

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2001/91010100138.pdf

You have to work it out yourself. They're more on how to manage problems than asking what causes them in the first place.

 

[FairyLights]

Very interesting thread. Has there any work be en done on nylon bits, especially mullen mouth snaffles? I expect them to be kinder especially with sensitive hands.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

http://www.vetequineteam.com/files/Patologias Dentárias em Cavalos de Performance.pdf

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2001/91010100138.pdf

You have to work it out yourself. They're more on how to manage problems than asking what causes them in the first place.

Thanks - I'll read later (supposed to be working now )

 

[Pigeon]

If I was allowed to go bitless at dressage competitions, I would make the transition. That's the one thing stopping me, and it's such an inexplicable rule!

 

[Caol Ila]

Oh, dear. I never know how much to believe videos like this one, as they are generally made by people with a massive agenda, who wouldn't even be marginally open to the opposing argument, that bits (used correctly) don't in fact hurt horses. I tried my horse bitless for about a week, just to see what would happen. Decided she was more annoyed by pressure on her nose than she has ever been by the snaffle bit (which she has never seemed unhappy about) so resumed riding as usual.

 

[Cortez]

Unfortunately I think that the problem horses might have with bits is more to do with what's on the other end of the reins than the bit itself......

 

[khalswitz]

Exactly Cortez!! My lad HATES poll/nose/jaw pressure, and doesn't even like leverage bits let alone a bitless. And even if he did, I've alwys felt I lost the feel with a bitless, a bit like riding in a Mullen mouth but exaggerated - you lose the directionality.

And the point about dressage, Pigeon - submission is key in dressage, and why should they allow bitless when it will hide if a horse doesn't submit to a bit?

Also can you imagine the dark side of dressage if we allowed bitless - can you picture a poor horse in rollkur with all the nose, jaw and poll pressure a bitless can apply? Ouch.

 

[Jinx94]

I couldn't get through the first part of the video - it was too biased and not scientific enough for me. Fully agree with Cortez, and I'll be looking through the articles that others have mentioned.

 

[amandap]

Also can you imagine the dark side of dressage if we allowed bitless - can you picture a poor horse in rollkur with all the nose, jaw and poll pressure a bitless can apply? Ouch.

They get all that plus tongue, palate, tooth, chin groove and bar pressure with a double bridle in rollkur! The video does mention bitless bridles actually. lol

 

[Caol Ila]

If you point this out to some of these folks, they will say your horse is exhibiting "learned helplessness," as per an experiment done in the 50s or 60s (I think) where dogs were zapped with electric shocks in a cage they couldn't escape from, and after a while, the dogs stopped trying to get away and resigned themselves to the shock.

I would say that in my totally non-scientific anecdotal experiences, most well-adjusted horses I have met are perfectly willing and able to say "no" and tell you that something is uncomfortable for them. If they're not unhappy with the bit, why not assume that they're simply not unhappy with the bit, instead of looking to mid-twentieth century psychology theories for a more complicated explanation for why a lot of horses seem to accept bits without any trouble. Occam's razor sometimes works.

 

[Wheels]

Unfortunately I think that the problem horses might have with bits is more to do with what's on the other end of the reins than the bit itself......

This, totally

 

[khalswitz]

They get all that plus tongue, palate, tooth, chin groove and bar pressure with a double bridle in rollkur! The video does mention bitless bridles actually. lol

A double bridle doesn't apply pressure on the nose like a bitless. If the bit seat is properly shaped they shouldn't have pressure on the teeth - that's how you get bit resistance. There is only jaw pressure if you are continually engaging the curb chain. Whereas a bitless relies on these. Personally, I think both put a lot of pressure on a horse, just in different places.

 

[amandap]

I do think we are very poor at picking up discomfort in horses, many of us are tuned into horses shouting and miss the very subtle signals.


Talking about dressage and 'work' in general this is interesting if on a tangent. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0007625

 

[amandap]

A double bridle doesn't apply pressure on the nose like a bitless. If the bit seat is properly shaped they shouldn't have pressure on the teeth - that's how you get bit resistance. There is only jaw pressure if you are continually engaging the curb chain. Whereas a bitless relies on these. Personally, I think both put a lot of pressure on a horse, just in different places.

That's assuming you aren't using a crank (or tight) nose band that gives no release. Ah the bit seat... great idea! Not!
Yes bitless can cause extreme pain and discomfort but not generally in the mouth which the horse also uses to eat with.

 

[khalswitz]

I do think we are very poor at picking up discomfort in horses, many of us are tuned into horses shouting and miss the very subtle signals.

Will very much agree with this. My horse has only just got his mouth right after a year!! I had the vet out four times over the year to do his teeth as I wasn't happy with the way he was in the contact, and he's never had a huge appetite for hay etc, and at one point he quidded. Vet sorted the quid ding, but I just never felt completely satisfied. Bit the bullet and had an EDT out to him, he's a different horse. Super soft. Now feel guilty I didn't do it sooner. ETA - And at least I did it. I bet plenty of people would just take their vet's word for it and would have carried on!

However, the signs are there, even if we don't read them right. And we'd see more signs of horse not liking bits if it was simply bitting that was at issue! Selecting the correct bit, and having the teeth done properly, makes all the difference. And for some horses, that's no bit - but doesn't mean bitless is better, just another alternative, same as a baucher v a loose ring snaffle v a vienna gag.

Interesting study, but done on horses stabled 23 hours a day and worked for one hour... I'd be mad with stress as well. So wouldn't necessarily blame the work for that...

 

[Caol Ila]

If anyone wants to see a more interesting and far more professionally done film on this topic, sit down with some wine (probably a lot of wine) and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQUMAJCh1fA.

I don't agree with the conclusions that she arrives at (I rode my horse today in a bridle and saddle), but I think it's a good film if you look at it as a documentary about her personal journey, rather than as something that presents facts.

 

[khalswitz]

That's assuming you aren't using a crank (or tight) nose band that gives no release. Ah the bit seat... great idea! Not!
Yes bitless can cause extreme pain and discomfort but not generally in the mouth which the horse also uses to eat with.

Sorry, can you clarify? (I'm useless at reading tone in text). Do you disagree?

And that about the mouth is where I disagree - a well fitting bit that's either mullen or double jointed, with soft hands on the other end, won't cause pain in the mouth. Pressure, yes, but not pain. That is where it is the same as bitless - it is all about the hands on the end.

 

[doriangrey]

It's the physical evidence that gets to me, plus the fact that horses - unless they are eating don't spend half their time with their mouths open (excluding grooming each other, etc) - they simply don't it's unnatural to them. I appreciate that some people have sensitive hands but that is never, ever going to be as sensitive as a horses mouth - it only takes one, sharp jab to cause extreme pain. Yes bits 'work' - but I'm not sure that I've ever met a more forgiving, generous animal than a horse considering we ride him, they really do give us everything and it's the ones who can't cope that shout the loudest. I have used bits in the past, but one of mine couldn't cope and she went bitless. I can't on my conscience use a bit on my new pony seeing the awful physical consequences on such a sensitive part of a horses anatomy. However, we ride them we use saddles, bitless bridles, they are driven, shod etc, etc so where do we draw the line? I've seen some amazing riding without tack so it is possible, is it the way forward?

 

[khalswitz]

However, we ride them we use saddles, bitless bridles, they are driven, shod etc, etc so where do we draw the line?

There we go. Realistically, we aren't suddenly going to turn into a nation of tackless riders, so choosing one type of tack over another has to come down to both horse and rider preference. Even bitless - some horses hate with a passion (mine being one) so it's crueler to use the nose/jaw/poll pressure than a simple snaffle. You can't draw a generic line about bit v bitless.

the fact that horses - unless they are eating don't spend half their time with their mouths open (excluding grooming each other, etc) - they simply don't it's unnatural to them

My horse doesn't go around with his mouth open with a bit in? So I don't see your point. If he went round with his mount open I'd be guessing something was wrong... He doesn't head toss/bit chew anything like that.

ETA: I also quite frankly don't agree that even a jab in the mouth causes 'extreme pain'. Pain, maybe if you're really jabbing and especially if the mouthpiece is harsh, but calling it 'extreme' is being overly emotive.

 

[doriangrey]

There we go. Realistically, we aren't suddenly going to turn into a nation of tackless riders, so choosing one type of tack over another has to come down to both horse and rider preference. Even bitless - some horses hate with a passion (mine being one) so it's crueler to use the nose/jaw/poll pressure than a simple snaffle. You can't draw a generic line about bit v bitless.



My horse doesn't go around with his mouth open with a bit in? So I don't see your point. If he went round with his mount open I'd be guessing something was wrong... He doesn't head toss/bit chew anything like that.

ETA: I also quite frankly don't agree that even a jab in the mouth causes 'extreme pain'. Pain, maybe if you're really jabbing and especially if the mouthpiece is harsh, but calling it 'extreme' is being overly emotive.

As I said, I'm going on the physical evidence in front of me such as spurs on the jaw, tooth disorientation, blue tongues, excessive salivation, open mouths (not forced shut by a flash). Everything we ask of horse is a form of submission and I do believe imho that horses acquiesce. I also believe that the research done on bits should be done on bitless bridles and the physical effect on the horse (maybe it has been?). Seriously, if it is for the good of the horse - why can't we become a nation of tackless riders. What's the argument against it?

 

[khalswitz]

As I said, I'm going on the physical evidence in front of me such as spurs on the jaw, tooth disorientation, blue tongues, excessive salivation, open mouths (not forced shut by a flash). Everything we ask of horse is a form of submission and I do believe imho that horses acquiesce. I also believe that the research done on bits should be done on bitless bridles and the physical effect on the horse (maybe it has been?). Seriously, if it is for the good of the horse - why can't we become a nation of tackless riders. What's the argument against it?

The argument against becoming tackless riders? Is that it just won't happen. Practicality. It's like when my uni friends went vegan to save the Earth - it's not actually practically going to make a difference. Unfortunately tack so so ingrained in horse culture you just practically won't eliminate it. Not to say it's not a nice idea, but it just won't happen.

If you've been seeing horses with blue tongues, excessively salivating and with gaping jaws then you've been seeing something I haven't! Not one horse I've ridden has ever shown signs like that!! And I don't need to use a flash for my horse to have his mouth closed and accepting the bit!

I would say the horses you've been seeing, their owners need a bitting and/or riding lesson, rather than blaming the bit itself.

 

[wench]

I'd love nothing better than to sit on the yard loony... Bare back and with only a head collar and lead rope to ride him in....

 

[Caol Ila]

I think we could stand to become a nation of more tactful riders. You can also exert a lot of pressure and possibly discomfort with bitless bridles, as the horse's face and the pressure points there are also very sensitive.