Myths and Bits. Makes you think.

[doriangrey]

I'm not going to get into an argument, just to say if it can be done and it is much kinder to the horse why ever not? As to all the things I pointed to, they are commonly seen especially on the professional circuit. Anyway, seems like the yard loony is having a bad time of it - does it take a special kind of horse to learn to trust? Or, as I said, acquiesce?

 

[khalswitz]

I'm not going to get into an argument, just to say if it can be done and it is much kinder to the horse why ever not? As to all the things I pointed to, they are commonly seen especially on the professional circuit. Anyway, seems like the yard loony is having a bad time of it - does it take a special kind of horse to learn to trust? Or, as I said, acquiesce?

Not to get into an argument, as you say, but that is where I disagree - I don't think it's necessarily kinder for the horse to go bitless. It depends on the horse, and how their mouth is conformed, and how they both physically and mentally respond to different types of pressure.

 

[doriangrey]

Not to get into an argument, as you say, but that is where I disagree - I don't think it's necessarily kinder for the horse to go bitless. It depends on the horse, and how their mouth is conformed, and how they both physically and mentally respond to different types of pressure.

I do agree with you there, and I think I said earlier on that tests should also be done on bitless bridles too as we might learn something I'm trying not to be emotive but watching tackless riding humbles me - and I'm a traditionalist, cos I'm old!

 

[khalswitz]

I do agree with you there, and I think I said earlier on that tests should also be done on bitless bridles too as we might learn something I'm trying not to be emotive but watching tackless riding humbles me - and I'm a traditionalist, cos I'm old!

I agree with that - I'm certainly not brave enough to ride with less than a head collar!! It does look amazing. However, unfortunately I don't think it's realistic that we could do things like dressage, sj or eventing tackless to a comparable standard, and therefore there will always be a drive for tack.

 

[Caol Ila]

Would you ride down a road without any piece of kit, halter, bridle, whatever, on your horse's head? I wouldn't.

 

[doriangrey]

I agree with that - I'm certainly not brave enough to ride with less than a head collar!! It does look amazing. However, unfortunately I don't think it's realistic that we could do things like dressage, sj or eventing tackless to a comparable standard, and therefore there will always be a drive for tack.

We have been far too mature about this

 

[TrasaM]

I don't actually think that a lot of riders are aware of how much damage can be done to a horses mouth using a bit. If nothing else maybe this thread will make people think a bit more.
I get told I have good hands but bits still bother me. Why if a horse is trained correctly to light aids does there have to be so much pressure exerted on a bit less bridle that it causes discomfort to the horses head?

 

[khalswitz]

We have been far too mature about this

Haha, very un-HHO I know

And TrasaM, there doesn't HAVE to be so much pressure in a bitless that you cause discomfort - but it puts pressure in other places that some horse really hate, in the way some horses just hate bits. Different bitless bridles act in different ways, on the nose, the jaw, the poll, where a snaffle bit acts on the bars, the palate, the tongue. It's all pressure, just in different places. But I always think that we consider a bit 'harsh' if it has a lot of leverage/a curb/a combination noseband, so why do people automatically think a bitless is less harsh than a bit? The horse's preferences have to be taken into account, rather than our feelings on the matter - and they certainly tell us!

 

[Shantara]

Not to get into an argument, as you say, but that is where I disagree - I don't think it's necessarily kinder for the horse to go bitless. It depends on the horse, and how their mouth is conformed, and how they both physically and mentally respond to different types of pressure.

I have to agree with this.
I've mentioned it a few times, but I can't go bitless with Ned. It's nothing to do with him being strong, or naughty, but because he has a damaged nose. I tried him in a bitless and he was great for a few weeks, I galloped him, I jumped him and he was amazing.

However, because of his damaged nose, he started throwing his head even without really any pressure at all. When I put his bit back in his mouth, all the head throwing stopped.

Without the damaged nose, I truly think we'd still be bitless as I would have liked, but sadly, it's just not to be!

 

[khalswitz]

I have to agree with this.
I've mentioned it a few times, but I can't go bitless with Ned. It's nothing to do with him being strong, or naughty, but because he has a damaged nose. I tried him in a bitless and he was great for a few weeks, I galloped him, I jumped him and he was amazing.

However, because of his damaged nose, he started throwing his head even without really any pressure at all. When I put his bit back in his mouth, all the head throwing stopped.

Without the damaged nose, I truly think we'd still be bitless as I would have liked, but sadly, it's just not to be!

Mine just absolutely hates any kind of nose/jaw/poll pressure. I can't even lunge him in side reins in a lunge cavesson, despite being perfect in a bit - he hates the pressure on his nose that much. He doesn't like leverage bits, gag bits, curb chains and DEFINITELY not a hackamore - tried one to see if he went better without a bit to test his teeth, will NEVER do so again, he tried to kill me. He is happy in a snaffle, french link or lozenge. And in that he doesn't open his mouth, head toss, bit chew or show any signs of discomfort, I use only a properly fitted cavesson noseband to avoid any nose pressure (my show DR bridle has a crank but I only do it up loosely, not 'crank' it up) - and he is at his absolute best like that.

It wouldn't be kinder to go bitless with him!

 

[JenJ]

Interesting posts on this thread.

I've been wanting to go bitless for a long time, and finally bought a matrix bridle a few months ago. Initially I loved it, as I hated the thought of her having a lump of metal between her teeth the whole time.

However, I've recently admitted defeat. I used it as a side pull, and if I had a loose rein she'd plod along on the forehand, nose barely off the floor, and got exceeding trippy, to the point she fell onto her knees from canter one day. If I rode with a contact, she'd slow right down, and still be trippy. She also became difficult to get into any kind of active, forward paces.

She was/is mostly ridden off my seat and voice which is why I thought she'd take to the bitless so easily. With a bitted bridle I rode with a loose rein usually, with far better results than a loose rein on the bitless.

She is admittedly, an ex-riding school horse of 15 years of age and doesn't like being taught new tricks. I thought she'd like the bitless as I ride off my reins so little, but she never seemed happy in it, plus the increasing tripping was getting worringly dangerous.

I moved her back into her bitted bridle last week, and since then she's forward, head no longer on the floor, and she hasn't tripped once.

Hmph :-/

 

[amandap]

Sorry, can you clarify? (I'm useless at reading tone in text). Do you disagree?

And that about the mouth is where I disagree - a well fitting bit that's either mullen or double jointed, with soft hands on the other end, won't cause pain in the mouth. Pressure, yes, but not pain. That is where it is the same as bitless - it is all about the hands on the end.

Sorry, an oldie trying to be modern doesn't work too well. lol
Yes, I disagree and realize I may be in a minority and that if you bit there may be compromises for reasons of comfort. I don't feel rounding off grinding teeth is a compromise I could make especially when so much also depends on the skill of the professional not to over round or damage the teeth.
For anyone who doesn't know what it is. http://www.the-horse-dentist.com/all_about_teeth/bit_seating.htm

I am convinced and agree the hands are crucial but I believe the seat and rider stability is even more crucial and not given near enough importance.

I don't for one minute think tackless riding can become a norm in the current horse world, not least because of insurance, perceptions and safety.

I do agree with the poster that said words to the effect that we can become more sensitive and thoughtful riders.

For me I hope the emphasis of the impact of what (and how) we do with horses switches to consider the horse more and that more and more of us question.

 

[khalswitz]

Sorry, an oldie trying to be modern doesn't work too well. lol
Yes, I disagree and realize I may be in a minority and that if you bit there may be compromises for reasons of comfort. I don't feel rounding off grinding teeth is a compromise I could make especially when so much also depends on the skill of the professional not to over round or damage the teeth.
For anyone who doesn't know what it is. http://www.the-horse-dentist.com/all_about_teeth/bit_seating.htm

I am convinced and agree the hands are crucial but I believe the seat and rider stability is even more crucial and not given near enough importance.

I don't for one minute think tackless riding can become a norm in the current horse world, not least because of insurance, perceptions and safety.

I do agree with the poster that said words to the effect that we can become more sensitive and thoughtful riders.

For me I hope the emphasis of the impact of what (and how) we do with horses switches to consider the horse more and that more and more of us question.

Right, sorry, I get you know. I have to admit I was dubious until I saw the difference a good dentist who paid attention to the bit seat made. Horse is completely different to ride now. And I agree you are relying to the dentist to get it right, but we do the same with vets when the horse is ill, and lives are on the line, the trick is picking a good one in both cases that you trust.

I completely agree re: seat - too many riders balance on their hands or spend too much time fiddling. It should come from seat and leg. But that isn't the bit's fault - it's the user's fault. However I agree that waking people up to what they are doing with the bit is important, but I think blaming bits themselves as weapons of pain is far-fetched. Even the video relied on forced collection etc to demonstrate, and that isn't the bit's fault - bad riders will do that with a bitless as much as a bit.

I hope I don't come across as anti-bitless, because I do think that for some horses it is much more comfortable, and it is a totally valid way to ride. I just hate that people blame bits for causing pain, when a well fitted and properly used bit causes pressure not pain... it is down to the rider at the end of the reins.

 

[TrasaM]

I think the way forwards is with an open mind.
The quote at the start of part 1 is I think very true i.e. "Difficulty not with accepting new ideas but in letting go of the old ones".

 

[khalswitz]

I think the way forwards is with an open mind.
The quote at the start of part 1 is I think very true i.e. "Difficulty not with accepting new ideas but in letting go of the old ones".

This is true, but I think you also have to remember that the old ways aren't necessarily wrong because they are old... but like you say, open mind in both directions.

 

[amandap]

I hope I don't come across as anti-bitless, because I do think that for some horses it is much more comfortable, and it is a totally valid way to ride.

No you don't come across as anti bitless.

I wonder what thoughts are about learner riders learning without bits until they have a stable seat and can use aids effectively?

I learned with a bit as a child donkeys ago but looking back I don't think it was that wise.

 

[FairyLights]

I think nosebands are a huge welfare issue. a plain cavesson fitted to allow 2 fingers between face and band is the ideal, and not grackles,drop,etc etc all of which clamp the mouth and must cause pain. the horses molars are squashed into its cheeks for instance.

 

[khalswitz]

No you don't come across as anti bitless.

I wonder what thoughts are about learner riders learning without bits until they have a stable seat and can use aids effectively?

I learned with a bit as a child donkeys ago but looking back I don't think it was that wise.

I'm very pro lunge lessons/ lead rein for as long as it takes to develop balance and stability before picking up the reins. I hate seeing beginners pulling at mouths. I think kids have less effect than an adult, and yet we tend to have adults off the lunge/lead long before children? I've always found that absurd.

 

[TrasaM]

I'm very pro lunge lessons/ lead rein for as long as it takes to develop balance and stability before picking up the reins. I hate seeing beginners pulling at mouths. I think kids have less effect than an adult, and yet we tend to have adults off the lunge/lead long before children? I've always found that absurd.

I was handed the reins straight away and I'd be quite wealthy if I had a £ for every " shorten those reins" that's been yelled at me and yes it's been explained to me about how a loose inconsistent rein is just as bad, but when I first started it was a lot better than pulling on poor horses mouth. So yes, I as an adult total beginner was doing rising ( more bumping than rising) trot in my first lesson.

 

[khalswitz]

I was handed the reins straight away and I'd be quite wealthy if I had a £ for every " shorten those reins" that's been yelled at me and yes it's been explained to me about how a loose inconsistent rein is just as bad, but when I first started it was a lot better than pulling on poor horses mouth. So yes, I as an adult total beginner was doing rising ( more bumping than rising) trot in my first lesson.

Yeah, we seem to assume adults will pick things up quicker, and treat them less as beginners and more as novices.. possibly because adults need more brain engaging that kids, and get bored with less than children do. So we rush them. I would always prefer a beginner to have loopy reins than short ones, as we can work on having a contact later!! I also teach about using the body to steer rather than rein pulling from the word go, even whilst kids are on the lead rein, as I think it prepares them better.

Having done the whole RS teaching thing, personally we were very careful about our horse's mouths with beginners. We had one perfect RS schoolmaster pony who was every child's favourite, and yet he had come to us because he used to rear due to kids being so tight on his mouth. Mildest rubber bit imaginable, and being on the lead rein/lunge/ picking kids who wouldn't pull at him, he never put a foot wrong. But it took management. And it wasn't the bit that made him rear - it was the blocking in front by a poor rider. Bitless with the same riders would have had the same result. It was about managing the riders.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Ive ended up in the middle with my horse and ride in a combi bit!