Naming and shaming...

anadain said:
Thats true however a lot of dealers get away with it as its too much time and effort to take them to court! It would be nice to see a dealer taking someone to court to try to shut them up when the person has the evidence to back up what they are saying!

The truth will always come out! :D
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I agree totally - but for the sake of the forum, thats all
 
Bens_Mum said:
TOTALLY AGREE. I had two awful accidents this year on a very expensive horse bought from what appeared to be a highly reputable local dealer. Since, I have heard of many others in the same boat but locally they still have a good repuatation. This horse twice exploded with me and I was called a liar amoungst other issues. Eventually they took it back it then did the same trick badly dumping their own rider infront of someone else viewing it and is still advertised as "super old fashioned type, safe and easy to do in every way" and for £6,500!! I am very grateful to have our money back but it doesn't cover the injuries and money spent on schooling etc on this horse. I twice was very lucky maybe the next person who buys it wont I would have really apreciated any way of finding out information prior to this purchase or in the future. I think it is also good for genuine dealers as surely its good advertising...??
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At least you got your money back - not many do
 
Donkeymad said:
I'm 90 odd per cent in agreement. The little worry is that there will always be difficult customers who will wrongly scream and shout when they honestly are more in the wrong themselves. One bad report can do a lot of harm.

On the whole, I do agree.
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I agree with DM here, there are some buyers with unrealistic expectations and some who forget that horses are living creatures with minds of their own.
 
I totally disagree

In a lot of cases (as mentioned just above me) the buyer can be at fault - unrealistic expectations and ideas about their own abilities. Dealers tend to sell younger, greener types of horses. Whilst they make be foot perfect for *hypothetical* dealer (probably irish - and can 'ride' so to speak), a more novicey person who probably thinks they are better than they are, buys a young green horse and their inexperience will inevitably lead to some kind of blip... inexperienced person panics or acts in the wrong way (probably tenses up or gets off the horse), and the horse reacts back. Very very simple, and very very common! You could say they dealer should not sell horses to novicey people, in an ideal world great, but these are just people trying to make a living like everybody else.
Im sure in a lot of cases they do 'naughty' (for want of another word!!!) things, but i genuinly think in most/a lot of cases its not.
It only takes one angry person to totally ruin somebody's reputation and livelyhood, and I think H&H is right in the actions it takes.

Also, I have a feeling it would be H&H that would get 'in sh!t' so to speak, before the outspoken user!!
 
just to add, bloods can be taken and tested so you can ensure the horse isn't doped, you can go back and try numerous times if leaving a deposit in most cases, there are plenty of precautions you can take that people often don't make use of
 
QR - It is perfectly within the laws on defamation for you to say "I once used dealer X, I was not satisfied with their service, and would not recommend them to anyone else" ;)
 
littleme said:
I totally disagree

In a lot of cases (as mentioned just above me) the buyer can be at fault - unrealistic expectations and ideas about their own abilities. Dealers tend to sell younger, greener types of horses. Whilst they make be foot perfect for *hypothetical* dealer (probably irish - and can 'ride' so to speak), a more novicey person who probably thinks they are better than they are, buys a young green horse and their inexperience will inevitably lead to some kind of blip... inexperienced person panics or acts in the wrong way (probably tenses up or gets off the horse), and the horse reacts back. Very very simple, and very very common! You could say they dealer should not sell horses to novicey people, in an ideal world great, but these are just people trying to make a living like everybody else.
Im sure in a lot of cases they do 'naughty' (for want of another word!!!) things, but i genuinly think in most/a lot of cases its not.
It only takes one angry person to totally ruin somebody's reputation and livelyhood, and I think H&H is right in the actions it takes.

Also, I have a feeling it would be H&H that would get 'in sh!t' so to speak, before the outspoken user!!
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Yes, sometimes people do kid themselves into thinking they are better riders than they are etc and find the horse too much to handle.

But more often that not it really is the dealers fault. I think it takes things to the next level when they sell a horse to 15 year old knowing full well that the horse has 'issues' such as actually not letting anyone get on him. I am so lucky that i did not get seriously injured after some of the falls that i had. I am not a novice rider, yet this still happened to me. Dealers should not sell dangerous horses- or to people that they think will not be able to handle them. Simple.

You can 'dope' a horse by withdrawing water, and it doesn’t show up on blood tests.
 
totally agree would hate to thing for example a children's pony dealer was dodgy rather know who in my area is dodgy, we should be able to name and shame
 
SarahX said:
Yes, sometimes people do kid themselves into thinking they are better riders than they are etc and find the horse too much to handle.

But more often that not it really is the dealers fault. I think it takes things to the next level when they sell a horse to 15 year old knowing full well that the horse has 'issues' such as actually not letting anyone get on him. I am so lucky that i did not get seriously injured after some of the falls that i had. I am not a novice rider, yet this still happened to me. Dealers should not sell dangerous horses- or to people that they think will not be able to handle them. Simple.

You can 'dope' a horse by withdrawing water, and it doesn’t show up on blood tests.
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but if you could get on the horse when you tried it..??

Oh yeah course you can, be its noway near as effective and I personally don't think that would stop a 'lethal' or dangerous horse from being lethal/dangerous, i agree it can quieten them down but won't totally change a dangerous horse.

PS. I do agree they shouldnt sell dangerous horses, totally agree there, my point is just that horses are real animals and change in new surroundings with new owners - and its pretty much inevitable with less experienced owners
 
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I am still looking for my new 4 legged friend after a horrendous experience last year - as it turns out it was the same dealer that SarahX bought from - so if anyone wants to PM me the "not to use ones" I would appreciate it - especially in the East Anglia area, it would be appreciated.
 
littleme said:
but if you could get on the horse when you tried it..??

Oh yeah course you can, be its noway near as effective and I personally don't think that would stop a 'lethal' or dangerous horse from being lethal/dangerous, i agree it can quieten them down but won't totally change a dangerous horse.

PS. I do agree they shouldnt sell dangerous horses, totally agree there, my point is just that horses are real animals and change in new surroundings with new owners - and its pretty much inevitable with less experienced owners
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Yes, he was a complete angel when i tried him.

I know that horses change in different surroundings, but after 6 months you would think he would have settled down.

First time i tried to ride him at home, he went mad. Fair enough. Everytime i got near his back he freaked. Got everything checked- all fine.

About 3 months later i was still trying (and failing) to lie across him. All the time with my instructor who deals with problem horses.

We then got a proffesional out- worked with him and four hours later i was riding around on him and everything. Month or so later- he flipped out again. Then he was fine- then he'd flip out again. Each time me falling off worse than the time before. There was nothing anyone could do, and it got to the point where no one would let me get on him. He was just too dangerous and unpredictable. It was like something switched in his brain.
And it wasn't like he didn't trust me or anything.

In most cases, yes, with the right owner these horses could be perfect.
But sometimes it just is not the case. There really are nasty dealers out there who care about nothing or no-one. Only the money.
 
chameleon said:
I am still looking for my new 4 legged friend after a horrendous experience last year - as it turns out it was the same dealer that SarahX bought from - so if anyone wants to PM me the "not to use ones" I would appreciate it - especially in the East Anglia area, it would be appreciated.
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I know of three dealers in this area to stay away from. PM if you want to know more info.
 
Donkeymad said:
I'm 90 odd per cent in agreement. The little worry is that there will always be difficult customers who will wrongly scream and shout when they honestly are more in the wrong themselves. One bad report can do a lot of harm.

On the whole, I do agree.
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agree with this
 
Its not always about horses misbehaving after being bought and being totally unsuitable - what about the adverts that say it has done x y and z - you get it home and its done none of x y and z! I have ridden for years on and off but looked for a horse that would suit a novice as I lack in confidence and its the first "riding horse" I have ever owned! Taints the experience a bit when you find out its not what the advert says it was! I might be one of the ones who it work out for only time will tell!
 
One of the problems with this is that H&H could get sued for allowing it on their website as well as the poster. In fact, they would be more likely to get sued as they're the ones with the money. Everybody along the chain can get sued no matter what their role is. It's for this reason that a lot of newsagents won't stock Private Eye as even just selling it can make them liable.
 
Snowysadude said:
Agreed. But seeing as slander (even if it is true!!) is illegal that will never ever happen unfortunatley :(. I think there should be away to find out if any court cases have been taken out against the dealer, especially if they have then won!!
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To count as slander something has to be untrue, doesn't it?:confused:
 
Good question - the thing is that there are some dodgy dealers out there biut also some nutter clients and it is not right that people can be bad mouthed when there are always 2 sides to a story.

Question is - I sued a v dodgy dealer last year - Court ruled that the horse did not match the description it was sold with and that he was in the wrong. So can I name him? Court has ruled that he was in the wrong so I am only telling a court certified fact so can not be sued for libel and surely people are entitlled to know.........???!

On a seperate note, I then bought a cracking 4 yr old from some 'dodgy delaers' in East sussex (also named after a holiday company), so I guess there are some good horses that pass through bad yards!
 
FrecklesMum said:
Good question - the thing is that there are some dodgy dealers out there biut also some nutter clients and it is not right that people can be bad mouthed when there are always 2 sides to a story.

Question is - I sued a v dodgy dealer last year - Court ruled that the horse did not match the description it was sold with and that he was in the wrong. So can I name him? Court has ruled that he was in the wrong so I am only telling a court certified fact so can not be sued for libel and surely people are entitlled to know.........???!

On a seperate note, I then bought a cracking 4 yr old from some 'dodgy delaers' in East sussex (also named after a holiday company), so I guess there are some good horses that pass through bad yards!
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Can I pm you please and ask some questions about your court experience?
 
FrecklesMum said:
Good question - the thing is that there are some dodgy dealers out there biut also some nutter clients and it is not right that people can be bad mouthed when there are always 2 sides to a story.

Question is - I sued a v dodgy dealer last year - Court ruled that the horse did not match the description it was sold with and that he was in the wrong. So can I name him? Court has ruled that he was in the wrong so I am only telling a court certified fact so can not be sued for libel and surely people are entitlled to know.........???!

On a seperate note, I then bought a cracking 4 yr old from some 'dodgy delaers' in East sussex (also named after a holiday company), so I guess there are some good horses that pass through bad yards!
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Unfortunately, if A slanders B in print, in theory it is not just B who can sue A! B can sue the editor, the publisher, the printer, the man who delivers H&H, the shop that sells it, and so on, as all "publish" the information by helping to distribute it. To avoid a suit, the information has not only to be true but provably true.

So, if there has been a court action, it would be OK to publish the court's decision but only if sticking strictly to the facts.

I have in fact done this. I took a company to court and won my case. (Nothing to do with horses, btw!). Whenever a subject relevant to the case came up in a newsgroup, I would post a reply adding "...but don't deal with so-and-so. I had to take them to court to get my property back". The company begged me to stop. I believe they went bankcrupt.

I am not a lawyer so do not rely on this advice!
 
Someone I used to work for did a bit of everything. Not a dealer by any stretch of the imagination, but sometimes something came in that was sold on.

A little mare came in, it was a nervous mare, but sweet. With a bit of time and patience it would make a nice little LR pony. It was v. pretty. It was advertised as unbroken but in the meantime it had been lunged, longlined and had a 'dummy' rider put on it, all the time going quietly and slowly. A lady came to view another pony (for her daughter) but decided it HAD to be this one. It was explained to her that the pony was by no means 'a quiet plod', but that it had had a rough start and would come right in the end. No matter the woman said, she was experienced. Yes, they had a lovely set up at home, already had a pony, lovely new boxes, fields... and friends who could help. So after much discussion and a bit more work in the school (lady and child were invited over for several 'tries') the pony was delivered. Woman phoned later to say she was THRILLED with the pony. We were pleased said pony had landed on it;s feet with a nice family.

A couple of years on I called an ad for a 'first pony'. It turned out to be the lady that bought the mare. Once I realised I reminded her who I was and she ran into a tirade of what a nasty pony she had been sold! Apparently it wasn't suitable for a child... it wasn't quiet, and they'd had 'so and so from x racing yard sit on it and belt it round a bit' and it had gotten worse, so they'd shoved it through the sales. She said what an AWFUL shoddy dealer my friend was.

Funnily enough, out of all the ponies sold in my time there NONE were returned and NONE recieved a complaint. We actually had repeat custom. But it shows what ONE opinion can do. That woman's probably told all HER friends who've told THEIR friends, and completely muddied an innocent seller's name.

That's the reason why people shouldn't be allowed to just slate dealers as and when they wish. because very often it's just ONE person's opinion of another.
 
Dry Rot said:
Unfortunately, if A slanders B in print, in theory it is not just B who can sue A! B can sue the editor, the publisher, the printer, the man who delivers H&H, the shop that sells it, and so on, as all "publish" the information by helping to distribute it. To avoid a suit, the information has not only to be true but provably true.
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Slander is SAYING something defamatory; if defamatory remarks are published (and web sites/forums etc are considered 'publishing') then the publisher can be liable, and if it's print media,even the printers can be included in an action -as well as the person who actually committed the libel.

And you're right - to WIN a libel action you have to be able to convince a Jury that what you said about the plaintiff was true. So - in the case of dodgy dealer libelled on this forum, he would sue you - and IPC. He would not have to prove he was NOT dodgy (although obviously it would help his case if he produced witnesses to say the horse was absolutely AI etc. etc.) YOU would have to prove that the horse was dodgy - and that he KNEW it was dodgy and deliberately misdescribed it. And given your Jury will probably know bu**er all about horses, that might not be easy!

The truth is not always enough - and a libel action can be VERY expensive just for the legal bills. And even if you 'win' - and the Plaintiff is ordered to pay your costs - he will by this time have divested himself of all assets so he won't have the money (but your lawyers still expect to be paid - by you!)
 
Totally agree, i've had a bad experience with a dealer, but on the other hand i've had a good experience with a dealer.
 
Whilst I have been stitched up in past (think horse was sedated when viewed and I stupidly didn't ride it at the vetting), buyers do need to take proper care when buying.

Every horse buying article tells us to have a 5stage vetting plus bloods carried out by vet of our appointing. Visited a dealers yard recently and was told that the vet was coming to vet 2 others the following day, and I could add this horse if i liked. dealer was either trying it on or was accustomed to clients being dippy about vetting. In fairness to dealer, I had been given the opportunity to try this horse in any circumstance that I wished, and they did not decline when I said that a potential vetting would have to be done by vets appointed by me.

I find it hard to believe that any first time buyers do not pick up a horse mag in the newsagents when there is a "buy a horse" article. They all give the same advice ie vetting and experienced friend/instructor. Following it would put many dodgy dealers out of business.
 
littleme said:
I totally disagree

In a lot of cases (as mentioned just above me) the buyer can be at fault - unrealistic expectations and ideas about their own abilities. Dealers tend to sell younger, greener types of horses. Whilst they make be foot perfect for *hypothetical* dealer (probably irish - and can 'ride' so to speak), a more novicey person who probably thinks they are better than they are, buys a young green horse and their inexperience will inevitably lead to some kind of blip... inexperienced person panics or acts in the wrong way (probably tenses up or gets off the horse), and the horse reacts back. Very very simple, and very very common!
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Agree with this comment as you could have dealers named who had this problem. Would only be one view out of possibly hundreds of deals where the new owner was happy but would be detrimental to the dealers business. May be trading standards should initiate a voluntary feedback scheme (like ebay!) so that new buyers would have some idea of past experiences
 
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