Napping becoming dangerous

[Meg_99]

I have an older cob x mare who I’m losing my confidence in very quickly.
Hacking on our own is proving a very big challenge. Absolute angel in company and doesn’t put a foot wrong but when trying to go out on our own is an absolute nightmare. Doesn’t rear or buck thankfully but will spin and back up doesn’t matter if it’s into a bush, into a post or a fence and many times we’ve ended up in the middle of the road. This has stopped me even trying as it’s really knocked my confidence and I darent go any more.
I’ve tried waiting it out, but she also won’t just stand there she will spin and spin and spin until she’s heading for home. I’ve tried spinning her round until she gets bored but she gets really angry and fights me even more. I’ve kicked her on and given a good snack with the whip but again, it makes her aggressive and at that point she will try to launch both of us sideways no matter if it’s down a banking or into something. It’s made me think how long til we end up in someone’s windscreen.
leading her out in hand works but as soon as I get on it’s the same behaviour, I don’t think it’s a confidence thing as she’s a been there done that type doesn’t bat an eyelid at anything she just throws a huge strop because she wants to go home.
She has been checked over and I’m certain it’s not a medical thing. Due to her age we only really go out in the warmer months and she’s just had 3 months off but it took many months for us to be able to go out on our own last year and she wasn’t nearly as bad. We also are based on a private yard and I don’t really have anyone else I could go with often.
im unfortunately running out of ideas someone please guide me in the right direction.
TIA & sorry for the long post.

 

[Shysmum]

Reading with interest, so sorry you are going through this. Can someone walk beside you ?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Are there identifiable points where she often puts the breaks on?
Do you ever turn on the spot ad go home the way you came?
What exact checks has she had?

 

[Meg_99]

Reading with interest, so sorry you are going through this. Can someone walk beside you ?

I have but unfortunately they can’t be with me all the time and I’d like to be able to go out often

 

[Sir barnaby]

Sometimes some horses especially mares are renown for their herd instinct to kick in and they become very insecure when out alone, my old mare was much the same for most of her life, she would plant and refuse to move I would take my time and invariably it made no difference so I used to get off lead her for about 5 /10 mins then get on again and she would then go forward. This obviously may not be possible if your mare insists on spinning around as you would struggle to mount. I agree with shysmum someone who can cycle or walk with you until you are ready to turn for home then ride home alone with your companion behind you. You may however never solve this problem and have to work your timetable to ride with another horse as the older they get the less likely you can work through it, try to enjoy your riding in company and just spend time with your mare when no one is around to go out with.

 

[Meg_99]

Are there identifiable points where she often puts the breaks on?
Do you ever turn on the spot ad go home the way you came?
What exact checks has she had?

It’s similar places if I’m just going on the lanes as they only go one way and you have to turn round. But if I’m going out on the road I always do a loop as there’s quite a few directions I can go and there are two different directions that come into the yard. When we go out it’s just whenever she decides she’s had enough. She is a superstar and on my aids and then it’s like a switch is flipped and she ignores everything I ask. She’s had her back teeth and saddle checked and the vet is confident it isn’t medical as it’s only when we’re alone.

 

[Meg_99]

Sometimes some horses especially mares are renown for their herd instinct to kick in and they become very insecure when out alone, my old mare was much the same for most of her life, she would plant and refuse to move I would take my time and invariably it made no difference so I used to get off lead her for about 5 /10 mins then get on again and she would then go forward. This obviously may not be possible if your mare insists on spinning around as you would struggle to mount. I agree with shysmum someone who can cycle or walk with you until you are ready to turn for home then ride home alone with your companion behind you. You may however never solve this problem and have to work your timetable to ride with another horse as the older they get the less likely you can work through it, try to enjoy your riding in company and just spend time with your mare when no one is around to go out with.

As SOON as we turn for home she goes back to being an absolute angel so I could just walk her out. I don’t want it to become a routine where she’s used to turning around at a certain point though. I may just have to accept that she just doesn’t want to do it

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My chestnut mare is very nappy and backwards thinking, she hasn't actually tried it on for years, but it's always there under the surface. I did several thing to get her behaviour better and have rules for keeping it that way.

I have ridden out with two schooling whips and would rotate my wrists to flap them to encourage her forwards without slapping her. The movement worked well for sending her forwards when she started to *think* about slowing. It is vital to not block forward movement by catching the horse in the mouth.

I also never got into a fight with her. I always stayed calm. This might have involved some terrible singing on my part.

If she did stop - no fighting, ask her to stand, no pratting about. Dismount, lead for a bit, ask her to stand in a safe place to remount. Walk on. I would dismount and remount as many times as it took. If she carried on being nappy and it was unsafe to remount I would lead the whole way. Being nappy did not get her out of finishing the hack.

Vital. No turning on the spot ever, ever, ever. Always a loop or lollipop shaped route. This was non negotiable with my mare. If we ever did turn around you can bet that she'd remember the spot and nap at it again.

To keep her good. Keep to the no turning back rule. Always be willing to dismount and lead before an issue blows up (eg fly tipping coming up and I don't think she'll go by calmly, I'll lead by). No letting anyone hack her who will let her slip back into her old ways.

I always make sure that she is sound to ride, saddle fits, teeth done etc...

 

[be positive]

I would normally suggest long reining but it seems that she leaves the yard happily and stops once into the ride, for now I would avoid going anywhere that you cannot do a loop, the moment you feel her start to hesitate get off, no no fuss and walk her on in a really matter of fact manner, no big deal we are just doing it this way, get back on once you are either heading towards home so you know she is going to keep going or if you feel ready pop back on before getting past that half way point, if she even thinks of stopping get off and walk again, if you do this and it becomes 'normal' there is every chance after a few rides she will not get to the point of hesitating.

I would rather do it on long reins so they are not getting their confidence from being next to the leader but unless you are confident to long rein you may get into more of a pickle, it is the ideal way to deal with one that will not leave the yard.

 

[laura_nash]

Vital. No turning on the spot ever, ever, ever. Always a loop or lollipop shaped route. This was non negotiable with my mare. If we ever did turn around you can bet that she'd remember the spot and nap at it again.

Mines the same, turn on the spot once and it's a fight for a fortnight. It's not even at the spot, as soon as we're on the road where we turned he'll start thinking backwards. The other thing that helps with him is for the hack to have a "point". This might be a fun canter or something, but if there's nothing in the hack for him I will stop and give him a treat and a scratch at the furthest point.

 

[Spottyappy]

HoW long have you owned her for?

 

[Meg_99]

I would normally suggest long reining but it seems that she leaves the yard happily and stops once into the ride, for now I would avoid going anywhere that you cannot do a loop, the moment you feel her start to hesitate get off, no no fuss and walk her on in a really matter of fact manner, no big deal we are just doing it this way, get back on once you are either heading towards home so you know she is going to keep going or if you feel ready pop back on before getting past that half way point, if she even thinks of stopping get off and walk again, if you do this and it becomes 'normal' there is every chance after a few rides she will not get to the point of hesitating.

I would rather do it on long reins so they are not getting their confidence from being next to the leader but unless you are confident to long rein you may get into more of a pickle, it is the ideal way to deal with one that will not leave the yard.

Unfortunately when someone is stood behind her she won’t move forward at all. No spinning just plants. I thought I’d try it and didn’t even manage to get one step out of her

 

[PurBee]

I wonder if you lunging or round penning her will re-establish in her mind as your alpha- dominant mare and she follows your directions?

Have you done much of that?

By her being an angel otherwise and throwing a strop when you insist on going forward alone, sounds like she respects your cues when she agrees with them only. She’s demonstrating ultimately her ideas trump yours. So that’s not a horse that respects the rider ultimately. Youre not alpha mare, she is.
Obviously youve checked medical so this is regarding behavioural issues.

When you hack out with others, are you/her leading? If you do, and she’s an angel, then i dont think its confidence issue when youre alone. In that scenario she’s leading her ‘herd’ and thats how she likes it.

But if she won’t be the leader on a hack, and isnt an alpha mare when in the paddock, then i’d look at confidence and the long-reining suggestion. Aswell as doing work on the flat lunging and taking training cues from you. A nervous horse who is fully confident in the rider can overcome issues, but if nervous and wont take cues due to ‘alpha mare’ brain thinking, you’ll struggle, and i think the roundpenning methods could help with this particular mare.

 

[Meg_99]

Mines the same, turn on the spot once and it's a fight for a fortnight. It's not even at the spot, as soon as we're on the road where we turned he'll start thinking backwards. The other thing that helps with him is for the hack to have a "point". This might be a fun canter or something, but if there's nothing in the hack for him I will stop and give him a treat and a scratch at the furthest point.

She’s very lazy and doesn’t look forward to anything like that but is very food orientated. I’ll start bringing out bits of carrot with me to give when she does good

 

[Meg_99]

HoW long have you owned her for?

8 years. I however only brought her back into work last february she is very sweet and I know her well I think I may have spoiled her a bit

 

[Meg_99]

I wonder if you lunging or round penning her will re-establish in her mind as your alpha- dominant mare and she follows your directions?

Have you done much of that?

By her being an angel otherwise and throwing a strop when you insist on going forward alone, sounds like she respects your cues when she agrees with them only. She’s demonstrating ultimately her ideas trump yours. So that’s not a horse that respects the rider ultimately. Youre not alpha mare, she is.
Obviously youve checked medical so this is regarding behavioural issues.

When you hack out with others, are you/her leading? If you do, and she’s an angel, then i dont think its confidence issue when youre alone. In that scenario she’s leading her ‘herd’ and thats how she likes it.

But if she won’t be the leader on a hack, and isnt an alpha mare when in the paddock, then i’d look at confidence and the long-reining suggestion. Aswell as doing work on the flat lunging and taking training cues from you. A nervous horse who is fully confident in the rider can overcome issues, but if nervous and wont take cues due to ‘alpha mare’ brain thinking, you’ll struggle, and i think the roundpenning methods could help with this particular mare.

I don’t have the facilities to round pen/lunge unfortunately we are more of a farm than a yard and long reining I have tried and failed as she won’t move if someone’s stood behind her. She will be the leader on a hack easily but if they get too close she will plant and not move until they back off or go in front. We have 3 horses in the field and she spends most of her time on her own as the other two are mother/daughter and to be honest they billy her a bit

 

[stormox]

I think its a bit of a mare thing - I have had 2 rather like that, and although they got better they were never 100%

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would make sure that you can always do a loop/lollipop. Set off leading her and don't get on until you are at a point where it is a shorter distance to continue home than to turn round, then hop on at a convenient point and ride her home. Get her used to one route and get on gradually nearer and nearer to your yard. I would try to do this route every day until she is comfortable on that route before you start the process on a different one.
What is she like if you set off at a good trot?

 

[Meg_99]

I would make sure that you can always do a loop/lollipop. Set off leading her and don't get on until you are at a point where it is a shorter distance to continue home than to turn round, then hop on at a convenient point and ride her home. Get her used to one route and get on gradually nearer and nearer to your yard. I would try to do this route every day until she is comfortable on that route before you start the process on a different one.
What is she like if you set off at a good trot?

Thankyou for your advice, I did this a lot last year and it worked out I am just frustrated that shes gone back to square one and it took me most of the summer to get to a good point

 

[Meg_99]

I think its a bit of a mare thing - I have had 2 rather like that, and although they got better they were never 100%

I agree, I've got 3 and theyre all bossy

 

[scats]

I have a nappy reversing spinning mare on her own when she goes somewhere unfamiliar (or she’s in a strop of having a spooky day). What I have discovered works is ridiculously over the top patting and telling her how good she is, while keeping a firm leg on but not kicking. If I go for the tough approach, or tap her, she stands up, but doing it like this she will mince along (eyes on stalks and often sideways, but still forwards). I genuinely think she wants to please me, but she gets it in her head that she’s saving both our lives. A bit of over the top re-assurance and she will go. Might be worth a try if all else fails, you never know!

 

[Palindrome]

I'd let her face home and then make her back up. It may take several tries but it is usually harder work so they figure out it's not worth the hassle.

 

[be positive]

Unfortunately when someone is stood behind her she won’t move forward at all. No spinning just plants. I thought I’d try it and didn’t even manage to get one step out of her

She would move if I got behind her but appreciate it will not help you, some groundwork could be useful to establish a few more manners, just some basic in hand stuff, moving away from you, stepping sideways, backwards, forwards anything that gets them thinking, watching you and reacting to your body language, carrot stretches are also useful in part for the stretching but also that they start to enjoy working out what you want, you can get fairly ambitious with how much and where they stretch.

 

[Flame_]

She has to never win. She has to never succeed in deciding she fancies just going home regardless of what you'd prefer she does.

This can take time, patience, positivity, a better jockey for a bit and a willingness to hop off and lead then remount, sometimes repeatedly.

Eventually, if saying she's not going never works she'll figure out that its a waste of energy and pack it in, probably.

 

[Meg_99]

I have a nappy reversing spinning mare on her own when she goes somewhere unfamiliar (or she’s in a strop of having a spooky day). What I have discovered works is ridiculously over the top patting and telling her how good she is, while keeping a firm leg on but not kicking. If I go for the tough approach, or tap her, she stands up, but doing it like this she will mince along (eyes on stalks and often sideways, but still forwards). I genuinely think she wants to please me, but she gets it in her head that she’s saving both our lives. A bit of over the top re-assurance and she will go. Might be worth a try if all else fails, you never know!

its like a flip has switched and suddenly nothing i say matters. I've tried this and she just thinks oh im in the good books i can try it on and get away with it

 

[Meg_99]

I'd let her face home and then make her back up. It may take several tries but it is usually harder work so they figure out it's not worth the hassle.

i forgot to mention she also pulls the reins out of my hands almost. Getting her to even stand still is a task in itself but I'll see if this helps thankyou

 

[Meg_99]

She has to never win. She has to never succeed in deciding she fancies just going home regardless of what you'd prefer she does.

This can take time, patience, positivity, a better jockey for a bit and a willingness to hop off and lead then remount, sometimes repeatedly.

Eventually, if saying she's not going never works she'll figure out that its a waste of energy and pack it in, probably.

my abilities arent the greatest I admit im very much a happy hacker and i lose confidence way too quickly. Ill see if someone else can get on her and make her do

 

[scats]

its like a flip has switched and suddenly nothing i say matters. I've tried this and she just thinks oh im in the good books i can try it on and get away with it

Ah that’s a shame. Other suggestion is to get someone to walk out with you for a while and then over time they can drop back.

 

[Sprig]

Has anyone else tried riding her out for you? It may be that they have a bit more success than you (even if that involves getting off/on and leading for a bit) and then can set up some better habits for you to build on.

 

[PurBee]

I don’t have the facilities to round pen/lunge unfortunately we are more of a farm than a yard and long reining I have tried and failed as she won’t move if someone’s stood behind her. She will be the leader on a hack easily but if they get too close she will plant and not move until they back off or go in front. We have 3 horses in the field and she spends most of her time on her own as the other two are mother/daughter and to be honest they billy her a bit

I understand. Is there a field/place separate from the other 2 horses where you can have her on a long lunge line? Or if the field is good ground and large enough you can lunge long line in the field?
I’m just thinking if you can establish interraction on the ground, that isnt just giving her stuff, haynets, food bowels, treats, grooming...as that can cause for them a habitual way of thinking i.e ‘your role as owner is to give me stuff i like,not tell me what to do.’
Especially if the other 2 bully her a bit, she’s probably become defensive in response to being asked to do stuff. If she runs from their bullying instead of kicking back at them, then you as a rider on her back, she can’t run from the cue, and as you said it blows up if you use a crop, suggests pressure in those moments is not the route to take.

So im thinking, in your specific scenario, if you widen your interractions on the ground to also doing some training - it could help her attach to you from a herd mate scenario, as the other 2 horses won’t interact with her?

A paradoxical approach while on her back and she spins, which may work better in tandem with you doing more basic ground training - if you just sit there, dont ask her to go forward, just sit there, and even give up on the idea of going forward, have an attitude of ‘ok We’ll stay here all day’ - completely relax in the saddle and just sit quietly Doing nothing, asking nothing, looking at the surroundings for 2 minutes. She may get bored and move forward anyway. Or just stand. Then gently just ask her to go forward, no tense reins or legs, ask her verbally if thats how you do it too. Still with the non-caring attitude if she does or doesn't go forward. If she doesnt move forward, then remain sitting there....try again after 3 mins.
with the above exercise youre releasing any mental expectant pressure off her. With an attitude of not caring about going forward takes off the pressure in her to go forward and fight you about it. You will have to be really patient for this to work. Forget the route of a specific hack, a planned route, and how long you’ve got to hack.

The 1 thing though, is to not give in and turn to go home.

If the above doesnt work, get off and lead as others suggest.

The above methods i’ve used with other behavioural issues, and once the horse gets that im not going to just stop or go away or give into them, and calmly re-ask after a ‘rest break of neutral energy’, they normally then just do as i ask.

The stopping and doing nothing approach seems to confuse them. Gets them to think. By being calm, quiet and not asking for anything of them during behavioural stress moments, they wonder what’s going on...why arent you forcing them, why arent you trying another way, what are you doing being quiet and still...whats going on?!
I’ve asked again and if a 2nd time there’s a ‘no’ from the horse i repeat the stop, do nothing, let it go, calm way of being for 1-2mins. Third time asking they tend to give in due to figuring out youre not going to stop this weird silent calmness of no pressure.

You could try it/train it on her in a place she happily goes forward on. Stop her and sit for a moment, all chilled out and relaxed. 1-2 mins - Then ask forward. She goes forward and understands the stopping is to relax before going forward. You can fuss her, even treat her only once she’s moved her legs forward. She’ll learn then she gets to relax when you stop, and you are relaxed, and also she gets reward for moving on when asked.
At the napping points with this already trained into her, she will know she will get relaxation and a treat if she listens to your cues.