Napping becoming dangerous

[Meg_99]

Has anyone else tried riding her out for you? It may be that they have a bit more success than you (even if that involves getting off/on and leading for a bit) and then can set up some better habits for you to build on.

Yes im going to try that soon! Thanks

 

[Meg_99]

I understand. Is there a field/place separate from the other 2 horses where you can have her on a long lunge line? Or if the field is good ground and large enough you can lunge long line in the field?
I’m just thinking if you can establish interraction on the ground, that isnt just giving her stuff, haynets, food bowels, treats, grooming...as that can cause for them a habitual way of thinking i.e ‘your role as owner is to give me stuff i like,not tell me what to do.’
Especially if the other 2 bully her a bit, she’s probably become defensive in response to being asked to do stuff. If she runs from their bullying instead of kicking back at them, then you as a rider on her back, she can’t run from the cue, and as you said it blows up if you use a crop, suggests pressure in those moments is not the route to take.

So im thinking, in your specific scenario, if you widen your interractions on the ground to also doing some training - it could help her attach to you from a herd mate scenario, as the other 2 horses won’t interact with her?

A paradoxical approach while on her back and she spins, which may work better in tandem with you doing more basic ground training - if you just sit there, dont ask her to go forward, just sit there, and even give up on the idea of going forward, have an attitude of ‘ok We’ll stay here all day’ - completely relax in the saddle and just sit quietly Doing nothing, asking nothing, looking at the surroundings for 2 minutes. She may get bored and move forward anyway. Or just stand. Then gently just ask her to go forward, no tense reins or legs, ask her verbally if thats how you do it too. Still with the non-caring attitude if she does or doesn't go forward. If she doesnt move forward, then remain sitting there....try again after 3 mins.
with the above exercise youre releasing any mental expectant pressure off her. With an attitude of not caring about going forward takes off the pressure in her to go forward and fight you about it. You will have to be really patient for this to work. Forget the route of a specific hack, a planned route, and how long you’ve got to hack.

The 1 thing though, is to not give in and turn to go home.

If the above doesnt work, get off and lead as others suggest.

The above methods i’ve used with other behavioural issues, and once the horse gets that im not going to just stop or go away or give into them, and calmly re-ask after a ‘rest break of neutral energy’, they normally then just do as i ask.

The stopping and doing nothing approach seems to confuse them. Gets them to think. By being calm, quiet and not asking for anything of them during behavioural stress moments, they wonder what’s going on...why arent you forcing them, why arent you trying another way, what are you doing being quiet and still...whats going on?!
I’ve asked again and if a 2nd time there’s a ‘no’ from the horse i repeat the stop, do nothing, let it go, calm way of being for 1-2mins. Third time asking they tend to give in due to figuring out youre not going to stop this weird silent calmness of no pressure.

You could try it/train it on her in a place she happily goes forward on. Stop her and sit for a moment, all chilled out and relaxed. 1-2 mins - Then ask forward. She goes forward and understands the stopping is to relax before going forward. You can fuss her, even treat her only once she’s moved her legs forward. She’ll learn then she gets to relax when you stop, and you are relaxed, and also she gets reward for moving on when asked.
At the napping points with this already trained into her, she will know she will get relaxation and a treat if she listens to your cues.

You've given me a whole bunch of ideas to try I cannot thank you enough! The ground in the fields are a bit on the wet side at the minute but when the weathers better I can definitely give lunging a go in there. I think I just get too flustered as I'm more used to something very forward and unproblematic with this one its a challenge I've never come across before.

 

[Upthecreek]

How old is she and why do you only ride her in the warmer months? Has she had 3 months off due to an injury? If you solve the problem she will benefit from consistent and regular riding or you are likely to be starting from scratch every time you bring her back into work after a break. If she is quite old and the behaviour is really ingrained, you may have to accept that you can only ride her in company.

 

[Meg_99]

How old is she and why do you only ride her in the warmer months? Has she had 3 months off due to an injury? If you solve the problem she will benefit from consistent and regular riding or you are likely to be starting from scratch every time you bring her back into work after a break. If she is quite old and the behaviour is really ingrained, you may have to accept that you can only ride her in company.

She is 18 and I try not to go in the winter as shes gets stiff on the hard ground. She has mild arthritis i'm managing. I don't make her do any work if I think shes not feeling 100%, I will go occasionally but theres definitely no routine there. I managed to work it out of her last summer after a good few months but she seems to have come back worse this time round.

 

[Upthecreek]

You would probably find that being in consistent, regular (but not hard) work is beneficial to her arthritis. The ground is hard in summer too! If she is having lots of time off she will lose fitness and get stiff and being ridden again will be harder for her. Horses will often cope with discomfort in less stressful situations, like hacking in company for example. It could be that making her go alone is too stressful and something she just can’t cope with.

 

[Goldenstar]

At 18 I would leave her be and do what she likes .

 

[Meg_99]

At 18 I would leave her be and do what she likes .

I didn't think that was so old? We only do a couple of miles at a walk maybe 3/4 times a week? My previous pony jumped until he was 20 and then we hacked til he was retired at 22. I've heard of others still out and about on horses even older than that

 

[Meg_99]

You would probably find that being in consistent, regular (but not hard) work is beneficial to her arthritis. The ground is hard in summer too! If she is having lots of time off she will lose fitness and get stiff and being ridden again will be harder for her. Horses will often cope with discomfort in less stressful situations, like hacking in company for example. It could be that making her go alone is too stressful and something she just can’t cope with.

I'll be mindful of that thankyou. Perhaps in fear of making her worse I was actually making her worse

 

[Sossigpoker]

I'll be mindful of that thankyou. Perhaps in fear of making her worse I was actually making her worse

I know horses well into their 20s that hunt a full day. My yard owners show jumper has only just retired from jumping at 24. Obviously all horses are different but as a rule I wouldn't say 18 is elderly.
The 24 year old is still ridden 5-6 times a week btw.

 

[rextherobber]

Agree 18 is not too old. Agree with all the "Don't give in" comments - there's nothing wrong with getting off an leading if it's the only way to get her going again. Maybe have a read of Michael Peace? He sometimes uses a soft plaited nylon tasselly thing, I think you kind of flourish it in their line of sight to encourage them forward?

 

[Meg_99]

Thanks for all your advice everyone, its given me some great ideas to try and helped me realise what I was doing wrong

 

[jhoward]

And when all the Nicey Nicey doesn't work get a water pistol ...get some one behind you and the moment she stops and says not a good squirt up the foo foo will send her forward.

Just be ready not to Jab her in the gob, kick on and give a lot of praise for her going forward.

 

[Splash2310]

Have you tried growling/shouting? I find it works quite well when mine is being a nappy sod.

 

[Meg_99]

Have you tried growling/shouting? I find it works quite well when mine is being a nappy sod.

Yes done too much of that just gets her angry

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I know horses well into their 20s that hunt a full day. My yard owners show jumper has only just retired from jumping at 24. Obviously all horses are different but as a rule I wouldn't say 18 is elderly.
The 24 year old is still ridden 5-6 times a week btw.

But a horse with arthritis at 18 is becoming elderly and should be treated as such. Is she on any medication for her arthritis? That should be your starting point if not.

 

[Snow Falcon]

So she has mild arthritis. Perhaps when she is out in company she forgets this, maybe she is uncomfortable being ridden? What treatment does she have for this?

If it is behavioural, I would suggest getting someone else to ride her out for a few weeks. She has learnt behaviour with you now and a different confident rider could help push her on.

Hope you manage to find a solution.

 

[southerncomfort]

And when all the Nicey Nicey doesn't work get a water pistol ...get some one behind you and the moment she stops and says not a good squirt up the foo foo will send her forward.

Just be ready not to Jab her in the gob, kick on and give a lot of praise for her going forward.

I wouldn't do this.

It's resorting to trying to bully the horse in to doing what you want and won't solve the problem long term, especially if she's napping because she is worried or anxious.

 

[Meg_99]

She is on medication for her arthritis and is 100% sound, it doesn’t affect her apart from sometimes in the winter and I don’t make her do anything if I don’t think she’s right (as ive already said)

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Mine came from a riding school as he couldn't cope with the environment so was only used to going out in groups, and not at the front

I'd either have someone walking with me to start with, or if he planted, I'd get off and lead him for 200 metres or so, to get him moving then get back on and this seemed to work quite well. I'd also do a fair bit of trotting on the way out, so he was thinking forward.

I'd also keep hacks fairly short to start with, so we ended on a good note then built up to getting to the fields, I don't recall him napping at the field as we were at a stage where he knew he had to hack alone, and also I could get him rolling along nicely down there, and he likes the fields

He now hacks alone fine! It didn't take overly long, maybe a month or two I can't really remember as it was a while ago. He very occasionally faintly thinks about it now, eg oh was walking with us last weekend and a car came, I told him to wait while I trotted to a lay by. H went to plant/ nap to stay with OH so got a smack and he did get on with it.

 

[spotty_pony]

I ride one which was like this... he went through a phase of rearing last year as a seven year old. Teenage tantrums but not nice from a 17hh Friesian. His actually turned out to be due to lack of confidence. I took him right back to basics doing some basic groundwork in the school, then leading him in hand around the village making sure he was walking beside and not hiding behind me. Then we progressed to leading out and long reining home, then long reining from the yard. I did LOADS of long reining with him - for hours at a time. Then I started mounting half way around the hack and riding home, and we finally did our first solo hack tantrum free about three months ago now!

He will go anywhere now. I can turn him around, go past the yard, past other horses and past scary things and we go out for hours at a time. He is still a spooky horse but he now has the right tools in the bag to be able to trust me, cope with whatever is thrown at him and he even *shock horror* seems to enjoy himself sometimes.

My advice is go right back to basics and be patient. Repetition is key. There is no quick fix but it will be worth it in the end. Good luck!

 

[AmyMay]

She is on medication for her arthritis and is 100% sound, it doesn’t affect her apart from sometimes in the winter and I don’t make her do anything if I don’t think she’s right (as ive already said)

If she’s medicated and sound ride her, leaving her for months on end will do her no good whatsoever (as said above). If there are times when you think she’s not 100%, then it might be time for a veterinary review. How do yo judge if she’s not ‘right’?

 

[Widgeon]

Just a thought but do you have access to transport? A friend's horse used to nap for home when hacked from the yard, but travel her somewhere else for a hack and she was fine - no napping.

 

[Spotherisk]

If she is sound and not in pain on her meds I would ride her quite a bit tougher as soon as your leg swings over that saddle. Say you normally walk the first quarter of a mile (which I would completely understand), well get on and trot, then walk five paces, then trot again on the other diagonal, if it s safe leg yield across the lane, doesn’t matter if it’s not pretty - you need to be giving her so much to do that she can’t use her brain against you. Think of how many transitions you normally do on a hack. - maybe two upwards and two downwards transitions and a stop and start ata junction? Get counting - give that mare a hundred transitions to think about in her 20 minute hack! Loads of praise too. You can do this.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

At 18 and being owned by you for 8 years? She is taking the proverbial p*ss! I'd ride her like you stole her and when she 'gets angry' .. YOU get smarter and tougher and when she gets angrier and tougher .. guess what YOU get even smarter and tougher. Any speed forward is forward so get a neckstrap or a breastplate, hang on for dear life and get her going forward with growls, spurs and a whip.

Might be more suited to someone with more confidence but that's how i would approach it. Two options ... the easy way or the hard way and both ways are going out alone hacking!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

At 18 and being owned by you for 8 years? She is taking the proverbial p*ss! I'd ride her like you stole her and when she 'gets angry' .. YOU get smarter and tougher and when she gets angrier and tougher .. guess what YOU get even smarter and tougher. Any speed forward is forward so get a neckstrap or a breastplate, hang on for dear life and get her going forward with growls, spurs and a whip.

Might be more suited to someone with more confidence but that's how i would approach it. Two options ... the easy way or the hard way and both ways are going out alone hacking!

This can be a very dangerous approach and encourage the horse to up the ante - you really don't want napping to become rearing - there are other better ways to approach the problem. Consistency seems to be the key to your problem - get her going over the summer and then keep her going through winter

 

[Annagain]

You say you have some options for circular routes, could you start off with company and peel off to head towards home by yourself, then switch it so the other horse heads home and you carry on alone and build it up so you do more and more alone? This is what I did to help a friend with her youngster who went through a nappy phase. The other option is you leave the yard alone but meet up with another horse around about the critical points - or preferably just past them so your mare can see them in the distance when she starts?

 

[jhoward]

I wouldn't do this.

It's resorting to trying to bully the horse in to doing what you want and won't solve the problem long term, especially if she's napping because she is worried or anxious.

It's not bullying it's a quick simple way to get a horse to go forward, far kinder than nagging, smacking pulling left and right on reins etc.

 

[AmyMay]

Scotsbadboy said:
At 18 and being owned by you for 8 years? She is taking the proverbial p*ss! I'd ride her like you stole her and when she 'gets angry' .. YOU get smarter and tougher and when she gets angrier and tougher .. guess what YOU get even smarter and tougher. Any speed forward is forward so get a neckstrap or a breastplate, hang on for dear life and get her going forward with growls, spurs and a whip.

Might be more suited to someone with more confidence but that's how i would approach it. Two options ... the easy way or the hard way and both ways are going out alone hacking!

Pearlsasinger said
This can be a very dangerous approach and encourage the horse to up the ante - you really don't want napping to become rearing - there are other better ways to approach the problem. Consistency seems to be the key to your problem - get her going over the summer and then keep her going through winter.

I’ve included replies from both Scotsbadboy and Pearlsasinger because it’s very, very important to understand that what Scotsbadboy is suggesting could get you killed, and what Pearlsasinger is recommending won’t.

 

[southerncomfort]

It's not bullying it's a quick simple way to get a horse to go forward, far kinder than nagging, smacking pulling left and right on reins etc.

I wouldn't do that either.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I’ve included replies from both Scotsbadboy and Pearlsasinger because it’s very, very important to understand that what Scotsbadboy is suggesting could get you killed, and what Pearlsasinger is recommending won’t.

RE what PAS said, I agree. It was very easy to make my mare rear if she was napping. If you push them forwards strongly when they really don't want to go forwards, then many will go up as they have nowhere else to go. It's why I used tactics that didn't inflame the situation.

I also find that an upset horse does not learn anything. Keeping things calm and training them is what works long term. Also if it is a confidence issue on the horse's part, getting tough doesn't build that.

I was very interested in the contrast between some comments on this thread and the comments on the showjumper/overuse of the whip thread.