Napping - pain or behaviour?

Caramac71

Caramac71

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2013
Messages
678
Location
Kent
Visit site
A bit of background - my daughter has had her horse for a year (horse is now 6). Always been a quirky mare (dominant and opinionated) but they've got along fine and were really making good progress earlier this year. Horse started kicking out with left hind in canter about 2 months ago. Since then we've done all the usual checks, after last physio session she became much worse and, in between physio and vet, she went from kicking out in canter, to being reluctant to canter, to being reluctant to trot. Started off only when schooling but eventually became a problem out hacking. Also seemed reluctant to canter on the lunge. Vet agreed with us that she was in pain (he suspected back problem) - 2 weeks ago she went into vet clinic and had lameness work up, back xrays, nerve blocks to SI joints and suspensories, scoped for ulcers, ovaries scanned - found nothing. Vet suspects a problem with sacroiliac and wants to do a bone scan. We have put a claim in to insurance and are awaiting their response on this.

We came away from vets with a regumate trial and instruction to rest, lunge and lightly ride. Vet asked me to report back with how we are doing. We didnt rush to do anything, gave her a week off and then started lunging. Got instructor down to help as horse had started turning in on circle prior to getting her to vet (vet had wanted her worked throughout to make problem as bad as it could be in order to help diagnose). Instructor got her lunging well, after an initial bombing round in canter, then my daughter took over. Horse then started coming in and reared at her a few times. Instructor talked her through it and eventually horse got over herself. Next few days she's been lunging ok, in walk, trot and canter, although has still made a few attempts to turn in and rear up.

Today she lunged her with the saddle on and she was ok, so daughter got on. Rode her round in walk a few times and she was quite settled. As soon as she asked for trot, horse tensed up, ears back, tail swishing, refused to go forward. The more leg is used, the worse she is. I went in and ran alongside and she would trot all the while I was going with her, but when I moved away she'd just start the napping/planting again. Daughter then did lots of walk/halt transitions and she was good as gold, she doesnt react to leg on in walk, it's only when she's asked to trot that she starts. Finished on a good note, daughter took her out of the arena and asked her to trot along the track back towards the yard, and she did this happily with me well out of sight.

We dont really want to be riding in the school at the moment, I think it's counterproductive, but prior to the vet coming she'd seemed worse on grass (ground is really hard at the moment) and so the school seemed the best/safest option all round. While she's so unpredictable it doesnt seem wise hacking her out (especially as there's never anyone around to go out with, so it's just me on foot). Instructor is coming out on Thursday so hopefully might have some suggestions.

It's just so difficult knowing what to do with her. Is she napping because she's in pain, or has she just learnt that we back off when she naps? She has been seriously challenging my daughter, with the rearing on the lunge, although the rest of the time she's well mannered.

I phoned my vet to get her advice, only to be told that she's away on holiday now til Tuesday. I am waiting for another vet to call back as we are supposed to be doing a month's trial of Regumate and they only had a small bottle (2 weeks worth) in stock, so I am supposed to be ordering another bottle. But, other than stopping her seasons and her seeming a bit less sensitive to grooming, I cant see any real change and I wonder if there is any point in continuing?

I guess no one can really answer if she's in pain or not, but I'm not really sure on the best course of action with regards to working her at this stage. Any suggestions?
 
Horse started kicking out with left hind in canter about 2 months ago. she went from kicking out in canter, to being reluctant to canter, to being reluctant to trot. Started off only when schooling but eventually became a problem out hacking. Also seemed reluctant to canter on the lunge. Vet agreed with us that she was in pain
Click to expand...

As soon as she asked for trot, horse tensed up, ears back, tail swishing, refused to go forward. The more leg is used, the worse she is.
Click to expand...

From these two quotes I'd bet £100 she's in pain. Horses don't really go from fine to playing up like this for no reason.

In your position I'd definitely stop riding and call the vet out when you can - and in the meantime chuck her out in the field with a sensible companion.
 
SpringArising said:
From these two quotes I'd bet £100 she's in pain. Horses don't really go from fine to playing up like this for no reason.

In your position I'd definitely stop riding and call the vet out when you can - and in the meantime chuck her out in the field with a sensible companion.
Click to expand...
Agree with SpringARising in that it does really sound like she is in pain.
The only other thing to consider is whether or not the instructor rode her at any point during this time and if so whether the mare reacted differently and to what extent? If there was a definite difference then could be either not pain related or something different in the way that your daughter rides that adds pressure somewhere. Just a thought as I have seen some quite extremely different reactions in a horse with two different riders.
 
Friends horse was showing very similar symptoms to the ones you described.

We had originally thought ovaries or hormones, as did a physio and vet. However nothing was found and she was x rayed. Horse showed mild kissing spines (even though vet claimed before x raying she was almost absolutely sure the horse would not have it!). After steroid injections she is on a light rehabilitation programme. She seems to have improved in some respects, but in others not so much, and she is still showing some of the same behaviours as before the injections. Our guess is that there is still pain present. The physio and vet are due back out shortly for further diagnosis.

I should add that some professionals have suggested behavioural specialists (actually I was a bit taken aback when my friend told me!). Given the horses recent diagnosis and her sweet nature a lot of the time, I certainly feel her horrid moments are not without reason (and she would be what a lot would describe as a moody mare without bothering with further investigation). We know this horse, and we know that behaviour is not the issue!

What does the horse tell you; if this behaviour is a change from the norm, particularly if your daughter and horse were improving before this change, I would take notice that she is trying to tell you something.

I digress a bit and in no way am saying your horse has the same diagnosis as my friends, nor that there is anything as seriously wrong, but I do believe that horses do not begin such extreme behaviour so quickly for no reason (I would suggest asking vet to look for kissing spines if they have not already as another thing to at least rule out).

My point is that I would bet my right arm that there is something going on with your horse. It can be a long and daunting process trying to really get to the bottom of what is wrong, and I empathise with anyone going through it.

In the meantime, keep a diary of her behaviour and her symptoms, particularly when she seems better, or worse. Give details of all previous ridden work, feeding routine, turn out routine, history etc to your vet which may help them along.
I would say, that you are better to speak to a vet, to try and find out what is wrong with the horse, than to keep persevering with a horse that is becoming unpredictable. A far better situation than a further broken horse, or if her behaviour is getting that bad, a broken daughter as a result.

I am sure you have also checked it anyway, but have you had saddle checked recently? A small, but none the less important thing to consider.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Thank you for the replies.

I do believe she has, or had, a pain issue. I guess my concern now is whether the napping is because she still has pain, or if it's become a learned behaviour. The fact that she has been so challenging when my daughter lunges her, but not the instructor, makes me wonder if she's just really pushing the boundaries.

When my daughter rode at the vets a couple of weeks ago, she was reluctant to go forward but she did get her trotting much better than she was today. However, previously at home the last time she'd ridden in the school (which was for the vet) she couldn't get her out of walk. So that makes me wonder if she's built up an association with the school at home, and pain, and she's refusing to go forward because she's anticipating.

We had a saddler out to her last year who fitted a cob saddle and insisted it was a perfect fit. Horse hated it. We got talked into buying it because she'd hated the one he tried on her even more than that one, and saddler said we hadn't had the horse long enough to know whether her behaviour was due to the saddle or because she was a nappy horse. Horrible experience all round and we returned the saddle within the week as it was obvious the horse hated it. It then took her a while to realise her saddle no longer hurt, so we had a nappy spell to work through for a couple of weeks.

Since then, they've come on leaps and bounds together, and even when the kicking out in canter started, horse was still scoring high 70s in intro dressage tests. She was also still keen to jump. The only time she's napped has been when she's been given a breather halfway through a session and my daughter hasn't kept her walking - if she's allowed to stand at the fence for a few minutes then she will nap and resist going forwards for a bit.

The napping started after the physio had been, and she's got progressively worse since then. Physio found a lot of muscle tension and thinks she has broken down whatever protective barrier horse had built up against what was hurting - so now she is experiencing more pain.

Vet suspected kissing spine (well didn't say exactly that, just said he thought something was grating in her back) but xrays showed no issue at all.

I kept a full diary for the vet for 2 months prior to her going in for diagnostics. We had previously tried changing diet and giving equishure in case it was a hind gut problem. Vet thinks unlikely to be anything going on in the hind gut as what they scoped was so healthy looking. She said they usually expect to see an element of damage in most horses, but ours was pretty much perfect.

Horse lives out 24/7 in a small herd, fed twice daily nuts/chaff, has access to a roundbale of hay pretty much all the time, and of course grass.

Instructor has ridden the horse once whilst this was going on (we had actually intended for her to school the horse while my daughter was doing GCSEs but it had all gone a bit wrong by this time so there was no point). This was still during the kicking out phase (rather than the napping / reluctance to go forward one we are at now) and horse was exactly the same.

Saddler fitted new saddle about a month before this started. Prior to physio coming, I got a second opinion on the saddle and fit from a different saddle fitter. Have tried riding her in her old saddle during this time and she was worse. Have tried other girths but nothing makes any difference.

Still waiting for a vet to call back, and I'm really not sure what to do now. I'm wondering whether instructor should get on on Thursday and just see how she is for her?

And also I dont know what to do about the regumate as I'm going to run out in a few days and I'm not sure there's any point in continuing, but I dont know whether there's any other reason that she'd need to be kept on it for longer.
 
No help to offer as I am just starting to try and get to the bottom of my 5 yr olds problems which you could have been discribing in your post. After a normal start as a 4 year old since Jan I have taken 1 step forward 2 steps back on and off since than.
Mine saw the vet today and he found a small amount of back pain which could be just saddle because of her shape. Very short, wide, no withers & croup high by about a hand. He did throw Kissing spine in as a possible problem but said start with the saddle. The saddle fitter is coming tomorrow.
I have improved some of her behavour with additives Hormonease, steady up and yeast. She is about to go to a yard for a few weeks as we are away for a little while they will do a lot of ground work and careful work and it will be interesting to see how she is.
Good luck with your Mare I hope you get to the bottom of her troubles.
 
Your horse sounds exactly like mine. She had gastric ulcers and was scoped clear after treatment but still rears and naps when asked to trot. She has been on probiotics for the hind gut and the vet has just tubed poo from a healthy horse into her stomach to try and reestablish gut flora. Your horse is definitely in pain and if you cannot find an obvious reason I would not rule out hind gut problems.
 
I think a horse in pain can go well for a stronger rider/handler who tells them to get on with stuff so I wouldn't discount pain if she goes well for the instructor.
If the mare is happy to walk and your daughter wants to ride I would keep at that for now, not put any pressure on them and see how it goes from there. If vet can't find anything, time might sort it out.
 
It sounds like a clear case of pain but the behaviour may persist once the pain is gone out of habit or if the horse realises it can get out of work that way. I would hold off doing anything with her until your vet tells you what's wrong (if anything). If it turns out she's fine and it's behavioural, there are plenty of things you can do. But there's no point trying those if the horse is in pain as they will lose their efficacy and it will be even more difficult to fix the problem later.
 
I am pretty sure your horse has pain issues.

Don't rule out abdominal pain, ulcer treatment could be beneficial. Check how overall muscle feels, look for preference to self carriage to left/right, muscle wastage and overall behaviour of your horse.

There is an underlying issue, well I think, in this case and it might be worth looking at the parts overlooked to date.

Have any bloods been run?

I'd also have a good look at the feet.

I sincerely wish you all the best success with getting to the bottom of this.
 
On top of vets advice and investigations, I would definitely have a look at saddle again (just to rule it out). 4 weeks is enough time for something not immediately wrong, but slightly uncomfortable to develop into something more. It probably isn't, but at least you can say for sure.

It can be a really hard balance between chucking money at a vet, and finding out whether it is behavioural/learned behaviour, particularly with a horse that you have had only a year, and are essentially still getting to know. In my experience though there is usually at least some improvement or small difference in a horse in this situation, once the pain has been eliminated. Like I said, you will have a happier horse and daughter if you can 100% rule out pain before trying to push too much.

Keep us updated and hope the vet has some answers.
 
Illusion100 said:
I am pretty sure your horse has pain issues.

Don't rule out abdominal pain, ulcer treatment could be beneficial. Check how overall muscle feels, look for preference to self carriage to left/right, muscle wastage and overall behaviour of your horse.

There is an underlying issue, well I think, in this case and it might be worth looking at the parts overlooked to date.

Have any bloods been run?

I'd also have a good look at the feet.

I sincerely wish you all the best success with getting to the bottom of this.
Click to expand...

Bloods have been taken - all came back fine (I think did a general blood test plus inflammatory markers and muscle disorders).

I spoke to an ulcer specialist vet on the phone, just to get a second opinion on what my vet had said about the scope pretty much ruling out any chance of ulcers as it was so clear. The specialist vet told me two interesting things - firstly that they now consider the succeed test to be a fairly accurate indicator of hind gut problems and it is definitely worth doing, and secondly that there are a small percentage of horses that scope clear but still respond to omeprazole treatment. So really, to keep these thoughts in mind and look again if further diagnostics don't reveal the problem.

My vet is an orthopaedic specialist and she feels the horse presents like a horse with sacroiliac disease, and the fact that she didn't respond to nerve blocks could just mean she was unable to block the right area.

Physically, horse is weak behind. And the fact that physio found a lot of muscle tension, and she is worse since treatment, I wonder if this indicates more of a musculoskeletal problem than an internal one?

I do think there is a pain issue, but I also think there is a psychological element to the horse associating the school at home with pain - the issue was always with canter but gradually became a reluctance to trot which I wonder if was all part of avoiding the canter (ie anticipating trot leading to canter)? The fact that she wouldn't trot in the school but would trot back to the yard is what makes me think this.

I'm not doubting there being an underlying issue, and we will continue to investigate this as best we can, but I just question whether the horse is giving us a genuine response all the time or whether she is backing off in anticipation of what she thinks will happen. She is a very clever mare and she is going through a bit of a challenging phase, it's just such a difficult balance of giving her the benefit of the doubt without letting her take the mickey.
 
misskk88 said:
On top of vets advice and investigations, I would definitely have a look at saddle again (just to rule it out). 4 weeks is enough time for something not immediately wrong, but slightly uncomfortable to develop into something more. It probably isn't, but at least you can say for sure.
Click to expand...

She's barely been ridden since the saddle was checked by a different saddle fitter, as physio came out 2 days later and it all went rapidly downhill from there.
 
Caramac71 said:
Bloods have been taken - all came back fine (I think did a general blood test plus inflammatory markers and muscle disorders).

I spoke to an ulcer specialist vet on the phone, just to get a second opinion on what my vet had said about the scope pretty much ruling out any chance of ulcers as it was so clear. The specialist vet told me two interesting things - firstly that they now consider the succeed test to be a fairly accurate indicator of hind gut problems and it is definitely worth doing, and secondly that there are a small percentage of horses that scope clear but still respond to omeprazole treatment. So really, to keep these thoughts in mind and look again if further diagnostics don't reveal the problem.

My vet is an orthopaedic specialist and she feels the horse presents like a horse with sacroiliac disease, and the fact that she didn't respond to nerve blocks could just mean she was unable to block the right area.

Physically, horse is weak behind. And the fact that physio found a lot of muscle tension, and she is worse since treatment, I wonder if this indicates more of a musculoskeletal problem than an internal one?

I do think there is a pain issue, but I also think there is a psychological element to the horse associating the school at home with pain - the issue was always with canter but gradually became a reluctance to trot which I wonder if was all part of avoiding the canter (ie anticipating trot leading to canter)? The fact that she wouldn't trot in the school but would trot back to the yard is what makes me think this.

I'm not doubting there being an underlying issue, and we will continue to investigate this as best we can, but I just question whether the horse is giving us a genuine response all the time or whether she is backing off in anticipation of what she thinks will happen. She is a very clever mare and she is going through a bit of a challenging phase, it's just such a difficult balance of giving her the benefit of the doubt without letting her take the mickey.
Click to expand...

It sounds you are being run through the mill with trying to find the problem, try to remember you need to keep your health and strength up as well.

Has a bute trial been done? (sorry if I've missed this)

Have the feet been examined?

Pain is a funny old thing, what presents as the problem may be secondary and the primary cause can be hard to find. It could be nothing specific perhaps and a combination of multiple minor factors.

I really don't tend to believe horses (or any animal) take the mickey for the sake of it, something triggers that behaviour. Yes, there can be learned behaviours but most of the time they can be corrected very quickly providing no underlying issue(s).

Did they run Biochemistry on bloods?

Really feel for you OP. :(
 
Sounds a lot like my last TB when I got him. He had an SI injury previously which he had rehab from but had been living within someone less than desirable for 4 years and was in a horrible condition when I got him.

His was a systematic thing he had ulcers, hoof issues and was weak behind as well once I resolved this the hooves (went barefoot) prob made the biggest difference his napping and herd bound behaviour resolved. Ulcers weren't ever diagnosed with him however due to the condition I got him in highly liked and I managed as such but it wasn't till I switched him to a simple basic diet (after trying all the recommended diets) of alfalfa, oats and a GOOD supplement which balanced it that he really bloomed (almost overnight) and this actually resolved his hard keeper status to the point he didn't require extra calories when the grass was good.

Current mare (alpha) did similar under saddle and was because she kept changing so much saddle fit was an issue - also table top, wide built so finding the right saddle was key, she was also weak behind due to being a broodie so I worked on walk and trot and used open spaces on straight lines to strengthen her canter.
 
Last edited:
Illusion100 said:
Has a bute trial been done? (sorry if I've missed this)

Have the feet been examined?

Did they run Biochemistry on bloods?
Click to expand...

No, no and not sure :)

I spoke to a vet yesterday who was very helpful in the absence of the vet we are seeing. He saw our horse initially and then referred us to his colleague to be seen at clinic. He wants to press ahead with bone scan and was going to look into what insurance had queried to try and get things moving.

We discussed a bute trial. He said that would delay bone scan by a few weeks and he wasn't sure it would be all that helpful. So in his opinion the next best step would be bone scan and could be arranged within next 2 weeks.

Re feet, I have on/off wondered if they should be looked at. When she came to us last year she was shod on all 4, due to being in flinty ground. We took backs off almost straight away and at the end of summer we took fronts off too. Not sure if that is in any way relevant.

First vet took the bloods and said he wanted to rule out muscle disorders. When I asked second vet for results, she said all had come back well within normal limits, apart from inflammatory marker which was 0.5 above upper limit so really not significant.

Thank you for the support, it's nice to come on here and unload everything that's going on in my head!

My worry is that, in the process of trying to find the problem, we have created a nappy horse :( . Because the problem started gradually, it's been a case of trying various things to sort out the canter, and each time horse has become a bit more resistant - from kicking on right rein canter, to both reins, to not wanting to canter on right rein, to not wanting to canter on both reins, to not wanting to trot. She's given us clear indication that something is wrong and yet she's still been asked to do it. We know it's been done with her best interests at heart, to try to diagnose the problem, but she doesn't know that and I feel like maybe the napping and planting is to protect herself from what might happen?
 
maccachic said:
Sounds a lot like my last TB when I got him. He had an SI injury previously which he had rehab from but had been living within someone less than desirable for 4 years and was in a horrible condition when I got him.

His was a systematic thing he had ulcers, hoof issues and was weak behind as well once I resolved this the hooves (went barefoot) prob made the biggest difference his napping and herd bound behaviour resolved. Ulcers weren't ever diagnosed with him however due to the condition I got him in highly liked and I managed as such but it wasn't till I switched him to a simple basic diet (after trying all the recommended diets) of alfalfa, oats and a GOOD supplement which balanced it that he really bloomed (almost overnight) and this actually resolved his hard keeper status to the point he didn't require extra calories when the grass was good.

Current mare (alpha) did similar under saddle and was because she kept changing so much saddle fit was an issue - also table top, wide built so finding the right saddle was key, she was also weak behind due to being a broodie so I worked on walk and trot and used open spaces on straight lines to strengthen her canter.
Click to expand...

Our horse is very lucky in comparison as has never spent a day of not being loved or well cared for. I'm in touch with her breeder as well as her previous owner and by all accounts she's had a very privileged life!

Like your mare, she is sensitive to saddle fit and has a wide, flat back but also has a wither so not an easy fit. Having seen her in saddles she doesn't like, we now pick up quickly the signs that we need a fitter out.

When she first came, she struggled with canter transitions in the school. She would often buck or kick on the transition. She was, however, happy to canter over poles and jumps. So we never made an issue if it and just tried to build it up our hacking, on the lunge and when jumping. She had a 6 week break over winter and came back into work much improved. Started working on canter transitions when she was ready and had a couple of weeks where this was going well, and my daughter was able to start asking for a bit more bend in canter etc. and then the kicking out started when in canter (not on transitions) and got worse from there on.

We've not got good hills for hacking but we've always done raised poles with her, and worked on canter in the best ways we can, yet she still remains weak behind. I'm not sure whether we should have seen improvement by now and if this indicates there's something underlying?
 
Well, that was why I wondered about a bute trial. I agree it's not that helpful from a diagnostic pov but it could help clarify whether she is more co-operative/less resistant under saddle.

If, yes, it helps you are looking at pain resistance.

This can be a double edged sword sometimes. If the bute helps it can either allow the horse to start working correctly and overcome muscle weakness/stiffness etc but if that isn't what the problem is, working her could cause more damage until a full diagnosis is reached.

If, no, not a bit of difference you more likely to be looking at learned behaviour.

If it leans towards behavioural or there is certainly an element of that, I'd be inclined to leave her out of work until all diagnostic/treatment performed. This way the behaviour isn't encouraged until you have a plan to tackle it.
 
Just a little update. Insurance have approved the claim and horse is booked in for a bone scan next Thursday.

Ridden-wise, we seem to have made progress and she is no longer anticipating canter. In walk and trot she is now happy to go forward. We've kept it simple, just short hacks and a couple of sessions in the school or on grass doing raised poles and lots of stretching.

She seems happy enough with that so hopefully we have broken the cycle of anticipation, and with any luck it'll make it a bit easier to work with whatever the bone scan reveals.
 
I would definitely recommend the succeed test as my 14.2 good doer mare had issues in canter on right rein and tested positive for gastric and hind gut ulcers. There is a strong link between right hind lameness and hind gut ulcers. She has now tested negative in last two tests which only cost £25. She was on the succeed supplement for 90 days. Vet also thought she had sacroiliac issues and medicated the joint but we have now discovered that she had inflammation and fluid on stifles so those have been medicated. My mare also reacts to clover so it is worth checking out the Calm, healthy horses website for information. I now put salt in her feed and mycotoxin supplement too as a precaution. I hope the bone scan goes well and that you get to the bottom of your mare's issues.
 
I really feel sympathetically sorry for you!
We are having similar issues with our pony. He's been out of work since December and has had a lot of treatment to correct rotated pedal bones in his hind legs and a sesame if problem in his fronts! Finally we are now starting controlled excercise whilst he is still confined to a small area.
This pony first presented as being badly behaved as he started bucking, which was the first sign of the problem. After being told to 'ride through it' by Pony Club (we have since left!!!) it got worse and worse, still no obvious lameness, consulted vet, I them rode him quite hard for a week, and finally he trotted up lame and there was something to start work on.
The hinds were corrected, rest and in hand work given, then I started riding again. He reared right up - which is extremely unusual, so we took him straight back to the vet where they discovered the sesamoid problem. He's had an MRi and a joint injection.
He suddenly looks like a different pony, moving really well.
Now we're starting again, but really gently. He remembers the pain. He hates being tacked up. We are just putting the bridle on and leading him about. We will do the same with the saddle. When I get back on, I will just get on and off for a bit to show him it doesn't hurt.
We're in it for the long haul, so have decided just to take it really slowly.
Hope this helps x
 
Last edited:
stilton said:
How did the bone scan go Caramac71? I have a horse with very similar symptoms so interested to hear.
Click to expand...

I was going to update when I understood better, but I'll tell you what I know so far. I don't think it's good :(

There are 2 areas that showed up on scan. One is at the base of her neck which vet doesn't feel is significant to her symptoms but they will X-ray on Monday to see what it is.

The other is to the dorsal articular set joints at the back of the thoracic region. Didn't show up on back X-ray as would have been obscured by gut, so the only way to investigate further is ultrasound. Vet seems sure it is arthritic changes. We will know a bit more on Monday but obviously there's no cure for arthritis so it's just a case of making her comfortable with steroids and/or tildren (or similar).

Feeling pretty shocked and upset at the moment as she'd been doing so well over the last week or so, so we weren't expecting them to find anything so serious, especially at her age and mileage (she's done so little for a 6 year old).
 
Sorry to hear this Caramac. Hope they can come up with a treatment plan to help her. Glad you are starting to find some answers though x
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top