National meeting. First fatality.

Potato! said:
Didnt a top showjumper (was it Hickstead?) collapse and die of a heart attack while in the ring. Quick lets ban showjumping too!
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Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....
 
Vicstress said:
Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....
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Yes but when the fences were bigger and more imposing there were far less fatilities. The race has not changed for the better in recent years and the horses look like whippets compaired to traditional national hunt horses.
 
Potato! said:
Yes but when the fences were bigger and more imposing there were far less fatilities. The race has not changed for the better in recent years and the horses look like whippets compaired to traditional national hunt horses.
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Thank goodness for common sense and not hysteria for once although I don't think this thread has been as bad as usual - so far. :).
 
Vicstress said:
Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....
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We should definitely ban any puissance classes then. Oh and, as far as I am concerned many of those fences at the likes of Badminton and Burghley are ridiculously high and wide so we should certainly stop eventing!

If you are talking GN fences I don't think any of those fences are any bigger than at a 4* 3 day event. I don't see the difference, the horses are trained to jump these types of fences, the jockeys are used to jumping these types of fences - don't think you'd see them jumping Grand Prix showjumping classes though!

"Ridiculously high" to one person is completely different to another.

A heart attack/ruptured aorta can happen at any time anywhere without any warning.
 
It is sad, saw a bit of him on the morning line before the race and he looked wonderful. Katie clearly thinks an awful lot of the horse and to head back to Ireland without him will be very difficult for all connections. He died doing what he enjoyed, he wouldn't have known and it was probably very quick.
These things happen, if he had a weakness, he could've gone on the lorry, or in the stable. Would've happened anytime. He meant a lot to a lot of people, and no doubt will have had the best preparation possible, and if there was any doubt they would've not run him.

So sad, RIP Battlefront.
 
ladyt25 said:
We should definitely ban any puissance classes then. Oh and, as far as I am concerned many of those fences at the likes of Badminton and Burghley are ridiculously high and wide so we should certainly stop eventing!

If you are talking GN fences I don't think any of those fences are any bigger than at a 4* 3 day event. I don't see the difference, the horses are trained to jump these types of fences, the jockeys are used to jumping these types of fences - don't think you'd see them jumping Grand Prix showjumping classes though!

"Ridiculously high" to one person is completely different to another.

A heart attack/ruptured aorta can happen at any time anywhere without any warning.
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http://www.grand-national.net/the_fences.htm please excuse my copy and paste!! All the fences average at 5 ft with a drop on the other side - I was always under the impression that 3 day events don't go anywhere near that height? The difference with cross country is that the horses are collected before the fence and the rider ensures they have control.....

Again the puissance is the same - the riders are jumping once fence (with a few smaller ones as a 'warm up' and the horse is taken into the fence in a 'controlled' manner. Unless of course you're riding Ladina B!!! :D:eek:

I didn't disagree with you about the heart attack ;)

Potato - sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.....the jumps are causing less fatalities but yet it's still not improved - sorry if I'm missing your point!
 
Vicstress said:
http://www.grand-national.net/the_fences.htm please excuse my copy and paste!! All the fences average at 5 ft with a drop on the other side - I was always under the impression that 3 day events don't go anywhere near that height? The difference with cross country is that the horses are collected before the fence and the rider ensures they have control.....

Again the puissance is the same - the riders are jumping once fence (with a few smaller ones as a 'warm up' and the horse is taken into the fence in a 'controlled' manner. Unless of course you're riding Ladina B!!! :D:eek:

I didn't disagree with you about the heart attack ;)

Potato - sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.....the jumps are causing less fatalities but yet it's still not improved - sorry if I'm missing your point!
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When the jumps were much bigger and more imposing the race was run much slower and the horses stood back and were set up for the fences much better. Now they have made them smaller and less imposing the race is run much much faster. Thats why the improvements are not made for the better. since they started introducing flat bred horses into the face and made the jumps smaller the course rides much faster it's inevitable there are going to have more problems.
 
Potato! said:
When the jumps were much bigger and more imposing the race was run much slower and the horses stood back and were set up for the fences much better. Now they have made them smaller and less imposing the race is run much much faster. Thats why the improvements are not made for the better. since they started introducing flat bred horses into the face and made the jumps smaller the course rides much faster it's inevitable there are going to have more problems.
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That's interesting. Have just looked at the stats on Grand Nat. deaths and apart from a few 'freak' years the deaths are pretty consistent.

It's interesting about introducing different lines into racing - there is a train of thought that the introduction of more warmbloods and less of your irish TB's into eventing has resulted in more deaths due to a warmbloods lack of a fifth leg.
 
There is one simple way to make the GN safer. You simply reduce the size of the field, and tighten up the entry rules.
 
They have tightened up the entry rules, it's much harder to get into now and the days are gone of no hopers taking part.
 
bonny said:
They have tightened up the entry rules, it's much harder to get into now and the days are gone of no hopers taking part.
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No, it's still a race where a few have a real chance, and the rest simply make up the field. The rules are not tight enough.
 
amymay said:
There is one simple way to make the GN safer. You simply reduce the size of the field, and tighten up the entry rules.
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The field will still bunch up, it's what happens in racing. No recent fatalities have been because of the size of the field, AFAIK.

I'd be very interested, given your comments yesterday, as to how you'd tighten up the qualification?
 
I don't know really. But you'd think that any horse that was running should have successfully finished a race of a similar distance over the past 12 months. Finishing well within the top 6. It just seems to me that reading the description and form of some of the horses it seems unfair to enter them.

Weird Al for instance - why is he in the race?

I know we're poles apart on this Caledonia. And you know far more about it than I do. But seems very unfair not to give some of these horses at least half a chance.....
 
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Weird Al has got a chance, although his recent form isn't good he is a decent horse who is actually well named and he might just be the sort who takes to the fences. Or he might not in which case he'll sulk at the back and he pulled up. It's a handicap at the end of the day and all the horses who have got in have high ratings....there isn't much more to it than that. All of the horses running tomorrow have a chance, some more so than others but they have changed the entry requirements to stop complete no hopers.
 
amymay said:
I don't know really. But you'd think that any horse that was running should have successfully finished a race of a similar distance over the past 12 months. Finishing well within the top 6. It just seems to me that reading the description and form of some of the horses it seems unfair to enter them.

Weird Al for instance - why is he in the race?

I know we're poles apart on this Caledonia. And you know far more about it than I do. But seems very unfair not to give some of these horses at least half a chance.....
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Primarily, there isn't another race that's as long as the National. So if they haven't run in the GN before, then that's an impossible qualification, as nothing would run in the race.

You admit you don't know what you're reading, yet you still say that some of them shouldn't be there?

Weird Al will like the ground, is the third highest rated horse in the race, and has won £144,200. He's only ten, and his form is in G1 and 2 races. I've seen his recent runs, and he's not looked as good as he was. However, he's still a good horse, and the race might revitalise him - he ran well in it last year until he tipped up.

People don't run horses in this race knowing they won't cope. Weird Al is trained by ginger McCain's son, who has a bit of a clue about what's needed to win a GN or two!

It also costs at least 4.5K to run in the race, after the various forfeit stages, so owners don't do that just for the hell of it!

As regards trip, when the fences were bigger the first circuit was usually just horses hunting round, so it was considered an ideal race for horses with a trip of 2m4f. unfortunately, since the uninformed made a load of fuss, and the racecourse listened, the lowering of the fences has upped the speed at which they are ridden, so horses are travelling faster through the race, and those genuine 2m4 horses don't stay nowadays.

The reason I'm responding to you is that you're making sweeping statements on the basis of very little knowledge, and this race is way too important to be dismissed in such a fashion.
 
Fair points Caledonia. Although I don't dismiss the race.

But realistically for the race to continue running, something will have to be done. I suspect even one fatality tomorrow will ring the death knell for the race - and I for one would be very sad if that happened.
 
Amymay given your criteria for excluding no hopers a horse which would fall into that category was Mon Mome, he had slipped down the handicap and the rest as you know is history.
 
amymay said:
Fair points Caledonia. Although I don't dismiss the race.

But realistically for the race to continue running, something will have to be done. I suspect even one fatality tomorrow will ring the death knell for the race - and I for one would be very sad if that happened.
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What it won't do is kill the race, but it will stop it being televised.
 
There's No Panic is being looked at by vets - fingers crossed all ok and that Sam TD gets up, horrendous fall :(
 
It looks like Little Josh either refused or just completely missed his stride and hit the fence. I hope Sam T-D and the horse are ok. There's No Panic was an unseated rider.
 
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