Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

[padderpaws]

just an observation but I have never read of anyone objecting to traditional English trainers making a huge amount of money out of their training methods and equipment. Why is it such a huge crime for some NH trainers to make money?????? What is wrong with marketing your art??? Trainers of any sort are not charities.

 

[Tinypony]

Both of the horses in the videos are Parelli trained. I think it demonstrates that some people are applying the method a bit differently and that as a result some horses are much happier about what they are doing than others. Hats off to Mikey though, that's pretty amazing.

 

[tazzle]

just to put a CT one in

I dont usually reward this much as most of it is basic for her now ( the sidestep at the tarpaulin was NOT from the tarpaulin... there was a pone just out of sight off camera right that made a lunge at her )....... I just upped reinforcement rate cos its first time we were doing this in public and off line .... we mostly train off line at home.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b...ction=view&current=agilityemwdemojune2010.mp4



I totally agree that it is HOW one gets there that is the important thing ... I know how the principles of getting liberty work parelli style but am not prepared to do it that way. I do not want my horse to stay with me because I make it harder for her when she leaves me !

 

[Pale Rider]

It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world. I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.

I think its a bit disingenuous to suggest people who post videos on youtube are simply courting praise. I really think it is good that people feel confident enough to let everyone see how they have interpreted the training and how it is with their horses.

I for one am now definately going to get some of my trainng sessions filmed.

For someone who has made much use of youtube in furthering their crusade against Parelli as you have, its a bit spineless not backing up your words, which have been many and very critical, to say the least.

I don't know if you have been telling lies about yourself and your abilities or not, but I think it says a lot about you personally, not wanting to show the folk you have crusaded against how you think things should be done.

My mind goes back to the youngster who posted how excited they were about having a lesson off a Parelli instructor and was subjected to a barrage of critism, of which you were part, so much critism in fact, she cancelled the lesson and appologised.

I hope people will take a bit less notice of your postings now as it does appear that you are a bit of a fraud.

 

[tess1]

Both of the horses in the videos are Parelli trained. I think it demonstrates that some people are applying the method a bit differently and that as a result some horses are much happier about what they are doing than others. Hats off to Mikey though, that's pretty amazing.

well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance. Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does. A much more enjoyable picture all round. More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon

 

[Pale Rider]

well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance. Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does. A much more enjoyable picture all round. More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon

I am disapointed that you have no footage of vaulting picnic tables, lol, but as this type of thing is only done for effect then it is not really important in this context.


I am not fully au fait with the history of Mikey's horse Red Sun, but I have heard that he was a fairly difficult horse to manage before he became partnered with Mikey. This is par for the course with many horses which prove challenging, that often as a last resort, they are put in the hands of a NH trainer, a sort of last chance saloon if you will. This often means that the horse is not starting from a good place, and often has a past where many things have tried and failed. Quite what some horses experience up to this point may be speculated upon, but never really known.

However, I feel that you have a different view of the 'journey' than is actually the case. You cannot teach a horse with escallating pressure, and to do this would only thwart your aims in this form of training.

When someone takes their horse through the gate into the field and takes the head collar off, in many cases the horse will walk, trot or canter away into the field. How would you view this? Is it happily trotting off to join its mates or graze? Or is it getting away from you? I believe it is the latter. I want my horse to be a pest and not leave me alone when I release her into the field. Similarly when working at liberty I want her to stay with me not to express her dislike by leaving. You cannot force the horse to stay, and once the headcollar comes off, the glue that binds the horse to you is the relationship.

I feel it is generally accepted now, that horses communicate with pressure, often pressure so subtle we as observers with an untrained eye see little or none of the interactions until they become blatantly obvious, by this time in our language the horses are shouting at one another.

Therefore, consider how an animal so sensitve to the slightest of pressure feels when a person sits on a horse or picks up a rein. Our weight on its back exerts pressure, mearly through the fact it is weight, without movement. There is pressure on the jaw from the bit, mearly because it is there, without the hands that exert pressure, often accentuated a hundred fold by clever, or stupid design.

As we are using pressure to communicate, whether we understand that or not, pressure teaches the horse nothing. The horse learns through the release of pressure. It is the release that teaches, and rewarding the slightest try, by the horse. By releasing the pressure this teaches the horse to try again as the pressure goes away. Escalating the pressure will cause the massive reactions we see, when horses go bonkers through over pressurization and confusion.

I note that you use the term 'high end negative reinforment' and from the context, I take it you mean this as a derogatory statement. In essence the 'high end' part of the phrase means nothing, therefore it is irrelavant in the context you use. However, the 'negative reinforcement' is a perfectly good way of acheiving the training goal. You should not be negative about the word negative, as it does not have a negative meaning in this context.

The reinforcer when training horses is the release of pressure. The adverse stimulus is the application of pressure, the removal of the pressure when the horse trys is the removal of an adverse stimulus, therefore it is negative reinforcment. The horse quickly realizes this and trys quicker with less pressure, hence we acheive what we call softness. The failure to acheive this softness is not the fault of the horse but the fault of the handler, in applying too much pressure and releasing too slowly. Most horses are too quick for the average handler who needs to learn to up their game to be successful.

As most NH training is in an effort to encourage a behaviour and for the most part encourages the use of negative reinforcement, then positive punishment which involves the addition of an adverse stimulus in order to stop the behaviour occuring. The obvious example would be hitting a horse for some perceived misdemeanor. Personally I have never seen anything where this is advised within any NH training, so whether or not this has happened with Red Sun, I cannot comment, I feel it is extremely unlikely, but you would have to ask Mikey.

 

[Tinypony]

I do agree with you Tess, I wouldn't be looking for a horse to be like Red Sun. But, Mikey is brave and he's dedicated and he doesn't think he is doing bad by his horse. A lot of people like this evolve and change with time and that is a very old video, so who knows?

I wouldn't look for videos of you jumping over picnic tables (wouldn't being on a horse help??) because you don't constantly claim that you do it.

well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance. Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does. A much more enjoyable picture all round. More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon

(I knew that "hats off" comment would provoke a reaction because I knew what I meant but wasn't really making it clear. Couldn't be bothered going back to change it).

 

[Morgan123]

I do not want my horse to stay with me because I make it harder for her when she leaves me !

totally agree!! That's my whole problem with most of these NH schools I think....even if that dark chestnut horse (Red Sun was it) was really difficult - surely therefore he could have been trained in a way that reinforced him positively whihc might have made him happier? That is complete speculation becuase I have no idea of his history so i realise could backlash on me !!!! But I have two horses who were difficult - one a rescue case and the other free becuase she is overly quirky and set in her ways about various things. The rescue case loves clicker training and has completely transformed, while the mare thinks CT is all a bit pathetic (actually she went off yawning and rolled last time i tried lol) - that doesn't stop me from positively reinforcing her in other ways though and she is so expressive and happy in herself now, everyone says it. Doesn't mean I can always make her do things she doens't want - we have to compromise ;-)!!! But it does mean that I understand how she's feeling and that I feel we have a very fair relationship with one another. I'd be worried if she looked as subdued as that horse. But still - as I said, I don't know that horse's history so I realise i'm judging on just one video which isn't totally fair.

Any other opinions on Tazzle's comment about the horse wanting to be with you but not because you make it difficult when it goes away? I'm quite interested in people's views on that.

BTW - thanks everyone for such an interesting and balanced thread, it's nice to discuss this realllllllly interesting topic without wild accusations and toys out of prams and everything and interesting to have everyone's different inputs!

 

[Morgan123]

However, I feel that you have a different view of the 'journey' than is actually the case. You cannot teach a horse with escallating pressure, and to do this would only thwart your aims in this form of training.
.

I'm confused about your comment about this - am i taking it out of context or something? Isn't parelli BASED on training with escallating pressure (if you don't get the response you want) whihc is then removed when you do get the right response? correct me if I'm wrong....

 

[diamondrockharvey]

Any other opinions on Tazzle's comment about the horse wanting to be with you but not because you make it difficult when it goes away? I'm quite interested in people's views on that.

I practice Parelli and my horse is MAINLY in the Left brained Extrovert category. For those of you who are not familiar with this term he is confident, cocky and like to play games!
WHEN he leaves me, which used be fairly regular before I learnt how to be interesting enough for him I certainly would not put pressure on him or he would NEVER come back to me. In fact he would probably kick out at me or something similar!
I simply allow him to leave and then wait, then draw him back to me with my energy by walking backwards, return to the place we were just playing at and allow him to graze or have scratches so he knows that running away is fine, but being with me is even better.

 

[team barney]

I think its a bit disingenuous to suggest people who post videos on youtube are simply courting praise. I really think it is good that people feel confident enough to let everyone see how they have interpreted the training and how it is with their horses.

I for one am now definately going to get some of my trainng sessions filmed.

For someone who has made much use of youtube in furthering their crusade against Parelli as you have, its a bit spineless not backing up your words, which have been many and very critical, to say the least.

I don't know if you have been telling lies about yourself and your abilities or not, but I think it says a lot about you personally, not wanting to show the folk you have crusaded against how you think things should be done.

My mind goes back to the youngster who posted how excited they were about having a lesson off a Parelli instructor and was subjected to a barrage of critism, of which you were part, so much critism in fact, she cancelled the lesson and appologised.

I hope people will take a bit less notice of your postings now as it does appear that you are a bit of a fraud.

The videos I have posted have been those of Linda and Pat Parelli, purely as a visual of their work and training techniques.

As for the lady who cancelled her lesson, she did so off her own back after being advised (by many people not just myself) that Parelli wasn't the best idea for a nervous rescue pony who needed to build his confidence.

I am not trying to market myself or sell my own particular brand of training, I am not after a cult following and I don't see how proving myself is of any relevance to anything whatsoever. I don't even have any video of myself jumping those heights, and with my fella partially retired now I am not going to get any, as despite being capable of jumping still I don't think he is upto it with me on board. I have a few pics but the are personal to me and I don't wish to splatter my face across the internet, or quite honestly his.

I have never tried to say I have all the answers, I just don't feel what Linda Parelli did to Barney, what Pat Parelli did to Catwalk, what was done to the little grey arabian mare, to name just a few, are examples of a "nice" form of training which is after all what Parelli claim to be.

I don't approach my horses or confront my horses with aggression, I think it is a very dangerous game to play unless you are prepared to constantly assert your leadership, which I am not.

You are more than welcome to brand me a fraud, as I have said before I don't need to prove myself to the world, I know that I have done everything I have said I have done.

 

[diamondrockharvey]

I don't think Parelli claim to be a 'nice' form of training.
One of the philosophies is to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary.

Plus there is no aggression in Parelli - one of the things they teach is how to be firm and assertive without getting mean or mad.

They also put a HUGE emphasis on being neutral and friendly with your horse too!

 

[intouch]

Tinypony - just realised who you are - I bought my first Steve videos from you a few years ago!

 

[team barney]

I don't think Parelli claim to be a 'nice' form of training.
One of the philosophies is to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary.

Plus there is no aggression in Parelli - one of the things they teach is how to be firm and assertive without getting mean or mad.

They also put a HUGE emphasis on being neutral and friendly with your horse too!

You don't have to raise your voice and appear angry to be aggressive, I found Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney to be very aggressive as was her treatment of the little grey arabian. In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.

I know Parelli's philosophy...
"There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes"

 

[team barney]

just an observation but I have never read of anyone objecting to traditional English trainers making a huge amount of money out of their training methods and equipment. Why is it such a huge crime for some NH trainers to make money?????? What is wrong with marketing your art??? Trainers of any sort are not charities.

Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them. In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options. I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.

 

[diamondrockharvey]

In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.

I appreciate the way you feel, however as a student I can hand on heart say I follow the 'words' they teach and me and my horse have a great relationship without me having to ever get 'aggressive' or put on a lot of pressure. We have achieved our relationship through the phsycology I have learnt from Parelli, without the 'horsenality' information I don't think I would have ever discovered what makes him tick, and how I can cause him to do things for me and with me without having to use force or intimidation.

I also appreciate that a lot of 'Parelli students' may unfortunately mis interpret the information they are given and misuse the techniques and concepts. And ANY techniques, concepts and tools can be dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't full understand how to use them!

 

[Golf Girl]

Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them. In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options. I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.

Which systems are those, can we have some names please?

 

[Golf Girl]

You don't have to raise your voice and appear angry to be aggressive, I found Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney to be very aggressive as was her treatment of the little grey arabian. In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.

I know Parelli's philosophy...
"There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes"

As usual TB you take quotes out of context and try to imply a whole different meaning than was intended. Here is the full text of Parelli's Principle no. 5 'The attitude of justice is effective'

The Four Phases are what help you to be just, to neither overreact nor under-react. There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes. You just have to become savvy enough to know which is which, and to gain control over destructive emotions such as fear, frustration and anger. Horses respond to positive and negative reinforcement, but they don’t understand punishment.

 

[Morgan123]

DiamondRockHarvey - thanks for your explanaiton of making it nice for your horse to be with you and everything, v interesting (and nice to hear!).

The thing I find interesting about parelli is you see these videos - and it tends to be the high level trainers, people who are level 4 and above and pat and linda themselves, whihc I find really uncomfrtable to watch. The horses don't look at all relaxed - quite the opposite. Then when you hear the students talking about the things they're encouraged ot do it all sounds relatively reasonable (though I disagree with some of the games and theory behind them but thats another story) and nice. So how does there get to be such a big discrepancy between the theoretical stuff that the sutdents say they do and then the stuff you see from the high level people?? Interesting.

 

[diamondrockharvey]

So how does there get to be such a big discrepancy between the theoretical stuff that the sutdents say they do and then the stuff you see from the high level people?? Interesting.

I think that is the 'problem' with the spotlight performances that higher level students do.
Sometimes ego takes over and the relationship suffers for the sake of the performance, and this can be when the horse may look uncomfortable about what they are doing.
If you watch people's audition videos on youtube however you often see the horses are allowed to make mistakes, in fact it is encouraged that even if you make a mistake when you video your audition you still send it in as this then demonstrates how you are able to allow your horse to make mistakes and then shape them into something else positive.
When the horses is never made to feel wrong they will offer you so much more and you can see that from their expression and the way they move their body!

 

[fburton]

I feel it is generally accepted now, that horses communicate with pressure, often pressure so subtle we as observers with an untrained eye see little or none of the interactions until they become blatantly obvious, by this time in our language the horses are shouting at one another.

Yes, but not solely with pressure. Communication between horses involves a lot more that simply pressure, and to reduce everything to pressure/release puts a slanted and limiting view on the possible interactions and training options available to us.

 

[Pale Rider]

Yes, but not solely with pressure. Communication between horses involves a lot more that simply pressure, and to reduce everything to pressure/release puts a slanted and limiting view on the possible interactions and training options available to us.

True not soley pressure, but what other ways would you suggest?

 

[Pale Rider]

Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them. In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options. I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.

It is a fact that when interest in a product is raised in profile, say by a big marketing campaign, by a company, many smaller companies or individuals benefit by the increase in demand for the product. Cheaper options will benefit as certain consumers baulk at the higher prices and look for a bargain.

Whether or not people see the prices as too much is entirely subjective and a personal choice. Everything is priced though at what the market will stand, obviously things are selling at these prices as prices would drop if they weren't.

I think that the Parelli marketing campaign is good for the industry as a whole in generating buisness for other producers of similar equipment and people who provide similar training.

All this of course is a separate issue to horse training.

 

[team barney]

Which systems are those, can we have some names please?

As I said I don't think there is a system out there at present that is brilliant. None of the following are perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are fairer on the horses than Parelli is...

Clicker training... Hempfling... Think Equus... to name but a few.

 

[Pale Rider]

As I said I don't think there is a system out there at present that is brilliant. None of the following are perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are fairer on the horses than Parelli is...

Clicker training... Hempfling... Think Equus... to name but a few.

Why do you think these systems are fairer?

 

[team barney]

Why do you think these systems are fairer?

Parelli confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective. For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner, but Parelli teaches in one of there dvd's to let the horse touch you first.
Perhaps others have observed differently but from my experience of herd dynamics the higher ranking horse always has first contact.
Also the carrot stick is used to both praise and punish, that keeps the horse in an eternal state of flux. It acts a a kind of Jekyll and Hyde instrument and being faced with a tool of ever changing personalities creates insecurity in horses, which in turn creates compliance. A human analogy would be a wife with an abusive husband who is incredibly nice when he isn't being nasty. It is far easier to react if you know what the outcome is going to be. Whether permanently nasty or permanently nice consistency creates confidence because at least you know where you stand.

 

[Pale Rider]

Parelli confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective. For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner, but Parelli teaches in one of there dvd's to let the horse touch you first.
Perhaps others have observed differently but from my experience of herd dynamics the higher ranking horse always has first contact.
Also the carrot stick is used to both praise and punish, that keeps the horse in an eternal state of flux. It acts a a kind of Jekyll and Hyde instrument and being faced with a tool of ever changing personalities creates insecurity in horses, which in turn creates compliance. A human analogy would be a wife with an abusive husband who is incredibly nice when he isn't being nasty. It is far easier to react if you know what the outcome is going to be. Whether permanently nasty or permanently nice consistency creates confidence because at least you know where you stand.

Another 36 pages there I think. I am not going to take issue with this though obviously you have raised lots of discussion points in this post, and I think you are very wide of the mark here.

My question was why are these systems fairer? rather than why you feel Parelli is not.

 

[lassiesuca]

As I critique things, I'm always more than happy to share my videos, and more than happy for them to be critiqued .

I'm a CT'er, so my videos predominantly feature me training my two young horses; please note most of these are training processes. I'm not one to hide how I train, because at the end of the day, I like to look at these things, after all the journey is more important than the destination, so I like to see how someone got there


http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB6EB4E504D912883

 

[team barney]

Another 36 pages there I think. I am not going to take issue with this though obviously you have raised lots of discussion points in this post, and I think you are very wide of the mark here.

My question was why are these systems fairer? rather than why you feel Parelli is not.

Those system are in my opinion more horse friendly, they don't send mixed messages.

I have seen horses started with Think Equus and they have been confident and interested in their surroundings. I have seen people practising the theories too and they don't seem fixated on rushing their horses. Their attitude seems to be the time it takes is the time it takes and any form coercion isn't going to help the situation along. I like that attitude in horseman.

I have watched Klaus work and he offers the horse with questions that are clear, precise and presented in a straight forward manner. He has also worked with some incredibly dangerous stallions without reverting to forceful behaviour.

Clicker training is praise based, if not done correctly some horses become fixated on the treat but if exacted with skill the horses learn without stress. If you want to train your horse to do "tricks" clicker training is the least stressful method of doing this.

 

[Pale Rider]

Those system are in my opinion more horse friendly, they don't send mixed messages.

I have seen horses started with Think Equus and they have been confident and interested in their surroundings. I have seen people practising the theories too and they don't seem fixated on rushing their horses. Their attitude seems to be the time it takes is the time it takes and any form coercion isn't going to help the situation along. I like that attitude in horseman.

I have watched Klaus work and he offers the horse with questions that are clear, precise and presented in a straight forward manner. He has also worked with some incredibly dangerous stallions without reverting to forceful behaviour.

Clicker training is praise based, if not done correctly some horses become fixated on the treat but if exacted with skill the horses learn without stress. If you want to train your horse to do "tricks" clicker training is the least stressful method of doing this.

Even though you are keen on Think Equus, and I apreciate what you highlight about this, these sentiments are also common to other NH trainers, 'Take the time it takes', 'Do less sooner'. As far as rushing horses goes, some need to be kept interested, so you need to progress quicker, others need more time, its all about reading the horse. What is a mistake is the handler becoming task orientated which leads to horses becoming drilled. Some posters on here have not found the same favour with Think Equus as you have, I have no opinion as I don't study it. Klaus is unconventional to say the least, whether you agree with some of his thoughts like, 'isolation concentrates the horses mind' is again a matter of choice, but not one I favour. As far as clicker training goes, I can see that this works well for some horses, others get fixated with the treat as you say and this creates a problem for the handler which would not need to be addressed if clicker training was not used on that horse. Also I feel there is massive confusion in the way people think about positive and negative reinforcment and positive and negative punishment.

I take issue with your assertion that Parelli 'confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective. For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner'.

You are confusing dominance with leadership, to put it simplistically, and the analogy of the abusive husband is I feel irrelavant and erroneous, in the context of Parelli, colourful though it sounds.

To focus on the carrot stick is a mistake, yes it is used to praise, and to apply pressure, but not to punish. There are a myriad of reasons why handlers find a stick useful in training, but I feel the primary one is reach, even MR uses one with a glove on the end, you cannot make it more obvious than that.

You should not place too much emphasis on herd dynamics, we are not and should not consider pretending to be horses, the dynamics change radically when a human comes into the equasion.