Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

Ive been following this thread with interest, and my personal feelings from reading the various replies and accounts is, different strokes for different folks
I know some of the posts are looking for explanations about different interventions etc and if youre not for it you will look for reasons to dismiss/ find fault with what the others are saying, for whatever reason .
parelli is for some but not others, clicker is for some but not others, traditional is for some but not others, and each will support there corner, i dont think there are any rights or wrongs in this debate, use what works for you and youe horse and allow others to do the same :D
 
The best thing Parelli did was list the keys, principles, responsibilities and qualities. Now if you don't know what they are you haven't even started to learn about his methods......If you do know what they are I am sure you wouldn't argue that any of them are wrong, or ignorant or abusive......They are basic to everything that every real horseman adheres to and abides by. If you go against any one of those you need to improve your own horsemanship. And that applies to everyone on this forum, and everyone we have refered to as a "horseman".
 
Alyth said:
The best thing Parelli did was list the keys, principles, responsibilities and qualities. Now if you don't know what they are you haven't even started to learn about his methods......If you do know what they are I am sure you wouldn't argue that any of them are wrong, or ignorant or abusive......They are basic to everything that every real horseman adheres to and abides by. If you go against any one of those you need to improve your own horsemanship. And that applies to everyone on this forum, and everyone we have refered to as a "horseman".
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I do know them, there are 8 principles, then the 4 responsibilities each for both horse and rider.

In my opinion the humans responsibility far outweighs that of the horses.

I disagree that justice is effective in establishing any form of relationship other than a dominance based relationship.

I also strongly disagree with horses responsibility to not act like a prey animal. I want my horse to act like a prey animal because I want it to maintain it's intrinsic nature.

I agree that humans should not act as predators, but in my opinion it goes against the very core of humanity to act in such a way. I have never known even the most novice of horseman approach a horse in an openly predatory way. Humans are hardly natural predators, without weapons we would never manage to kill anything.
 
And the keys? The first and most important key is "attitude" and that defines exactly how people get when they interact with a prey animal......
 
Alyth said:
And the keys? The first and most important key is "attitude" and that defines exactly how people get when they interact with a prey animal......
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Yes the 7 keys, keeping your attitude positive ect.

In my experience positivity and calm don't automatically make a stress free environment for the horse. I agree you should stay collected but being in control of your emotions does not justify any and all action. Parelli may advise staying calm, but they also advise upping the pressure. Up to level 4 which I believe is described as 'to the bone' pressure.
I don't believe in entering into what is effectively a physical screaming match with my horse. If my horse isn't giving me the answer I am looking for I wait for the answer to be given, if it doesn't come I change how I ask rather than increase the pressure.

People beat horses with calm and positive attitudes, does the attitude make that justifiable?
 
do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
 
Ibblebibble said:
do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
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The fact Parelli find it acceptable to strike a half blind horse round the face with a rope and metal clip may point toward some of the opposition.
 
Ibblebibble said:
do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
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I think perhaps it's Mr Parelli's supreme self belief that gets some peoples backs up. There was a video posted of him at a rodeo, he came off and faffed about but it was the expression on the face of the bloke waiting to ride that said it all for me. Yep, definitely a personality thing I'd say:D
(put your guns down, I've never seen him train;) )
 
Ibblebibble said:
do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
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It's the 'strong feelings' from its opposers that stir its supporters into defensive mode. The reality is that the Parelli Program is more comprehensive and accessible than anything available from any other NH paradigm.
 
Ibblebibble said:
do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
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One thing is its high visibility, I guess - largely due to the way it is promoted. For example, if you peruse YouTube, the majority of NH-related videos appear to be Parelli.

There may also be some truth in the claim that a sizeable subset of Parelli devotees consider PNH (and maybe PNH practitioners) to be superior to other kinds of horsemanship and practitioners, which may give the impression of zealotry amongst supporters - something which would naturally antagonize 'outsiders'. Let me hasten to say that I don't think anyone here is like that! Indeed, there have been some shining counterexamples, like tongue~n~cheek, a paragon of patience and politeness (is she still around??). However, there have been reports of Parelli people in 'real life' being rather dogmatic and dismissive, which, if true, would tend to get people's backs up.

I suppose some people don't like the commercialism of the Parelli organization, including e.g. the cost of equipment and courses. I don't like commercialism myself either, but I doubt Parelli has a monopoly on that 'sin'!

Speaking personally, I find it both infuriating and saddening that certain practices as demonstrated by the top Parelli people are defended point blank with the clear implication that, if Pat and/or Linda are doing it, it must be right and okay. Obviously I'm thinking of Barney and Catwalk here.

There may be other explanations for the strong feelings surrounding Parelli. The above is what comes immediately to my mind.
 
team barney said:
The fact Parelli find it acceptable to strike a half blind horse round the face with a rope and metal clip may point toward some of the opposition.
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and I think that a lot of "nh" agree that this it is unaccetable too .... and I am one that finds the extereme end of the pressure used by some nh practitioners very hard to watch ... I have physically left some demos.

However I have seen apparently high levels used and the explanations given have made sense ... and has been applied fairly and the pressure release equally fairly ... and it not been a routine or lightly considered response or applied to a "normal" horse "just because".


in NH, just like with "trad", there is a huuuuuuuuuuuge range of "lines in the sand" for humans . I have seen people do some pretty appauling stuff to horses that is just plain and simple abuse as well as some things that I find "abusive" / unfair but others might not. eg I do not go to shows because I find it hard not to want to go and remove spurs / bits / crops from humans using them in abusive manners. .. and I would never hit a horse to make it jump over some poles just so I can get a rosette. But that is "common" practice.... go to any level show any weekend and you will see that. That is my "line in the sand".



yet my horse sometimes wears a rope halter and sometimes I might carry a carrot stick ...... which never impacts her except to rub her.... its just a pointing or flicky device ;) . People often make assumptions then about what I do and how I train based on a casual observation. :confused:. Some assume I am causing pain and dominating my horse with both items, some assume I am a fluffy bunny that cannot ride and only do "circus tricks" with my horses. Neither are right :D :D :D :D.


I think we need to get away from the big names that perhaps go to extremes or that that have been seen to do abusive practices and keep looking at the principles / practices of the methodologies that are in more common use.

We might still come to the same conclusions that whatever method is not for each person ..... but we wont have poured the baby out with the bath water and maybe we can learn from each other.
 
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Tinypony said:
Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof. Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this. Just to put their money where their mouths are? …
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Sue Palmer, one of Kelly Mark's Recommended Associates put this video of her riding her horse, in rehabilitation after injury, on You Tube in December 2009. http://youtu.be/hq3BsmidJX8
 
Tinypony, by coincidence I've started riding my horse without a bridle this summer - it started as a bet from a friend who does lots of NH (I don't - me and horse have hunted the last 7 seasons instead!).

What I found is that with a horse whom I already have a good relationship with, its pretty straightforward to ride without a bridle. The first time (back in May) we went in the school, next time round the farm and now I mostly ride him without a bridle - the footage from a couple of days ago jumping is here:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/07/feel-good-friday-film.html

No "NH techniques" used, by the way ;-)
 
tazzle said:
I think we need to get away from the big names that perhaps go to extremes or that that have been seen to do abusive practices and keep looking at the principles / practices of the methodologies that are in more common use.

We might still come to the same conclusions that whatever method is not for each person ..... but we wont have poured the baby out with the bath water and maybe we can learn from each other.
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i think and would hope that we would come to the conclusion that there is no 'one suit all' method:)

fburton, very well put post, i think it's the zealotry around parelli that puts me off first and foremost, blind belief is never a good thing.
With all of these big demos it never fails to make me wonder how conducive to any training method a big arena full of whooping excited fans is!
 
Completely off the wall, I came across an observation from an American trainer a couple of weeks ago. Basically he put it like this.
A "traditional" (am not happy with the expression, but can't think of another) requires the horse to learn human language. A NH learns the horses language.
Either way, once the language has been taught, or learned it will work. It just seems to me that if we take the trouble to learn the horses language, we will be able to communicate with most horses instead of having to "teach" every horse our language.
It's a bit like going to Spain & not bothering to learn any Spanish in my opinion. If they don't understand, you just say it louder? :)
 
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