Natural horsemanship methods

[DosyMare]

There used to be a chap down my yard that had a cob he couldn't handle/ride. He had no common sense or experience with horses full stop. Last week I saw his advert in a magazine - Parelli Professional! More tw*t in a cowboy hat in my opinion! I don't understand how he can now sell lessons when he has no horse logic.

I like Join Up is good if done right. I also think Richard Maxwell is good and learnt a few exercises from his books.
But although I enjoy the exercises I've still had to give my foal a few bops and a wallop! He needs to know I'm the boss and respect me.

 

[jhoward]

You may joke about it (fear) and it's seen as a weakness, but life's way too short to be embarrassed about being scared!!! I doubt anyone has had a life where they weren't scared of anything!!!

if your scared of your horse, then id say its the wrong horse for you, it will take the pee more and more, trying to use other methods on it when you are not experianced will end up with a confused horse, which from what you say may in your case end up with it coming back at you.

more to the point it will end up with a messed up, possibly nasty horse.. just beacuse it could get away with it.

 

[iloveCharlie5]

so basically your scared of your horse?

He's only my second horse; the first one was bought from a dealer and i had him for three weeks, because he was sold as a safe, sensible first horse, then i was riding him one day and he went beserk, reared, bolted, napped and spun and i stayed on (superglue seat lol) then he whacked me in the face with his head and I fell off, and he would have stood on me if my instructor hadn't of managed to drag him forward (she ripped all her hands doing do) so did some digging into his background and turns out he had done this with another girl and we had been sold him under false pretences. so yes, I am quite nervous when riding my new pony since i've only had him for a couple of months.. :/

 

[iloveCharlie5]

if your scared of your horse, then id say its the wrong horse for you, it will take the pee more and more, trying to use other methods on it when you are not experianced will end up with a confused horse, which from what you say may in your case end up with it coming back at you.

more to the point it will end up with a messed up, possibly nasty horse.. just beacuse it could get away with it.

I don't let him get away with anything, i would just hate to hit him. and he is perfect for me; i have improved so much since getting him

 

[iloveCharlie5]

There used to be a chap down my yard that had a cob he couldn't handle/ride. He had no common sense or experience with horses full stop. Last week I saw his advert in a magazine - Parelli Professional! More tw*t in a cowboy hat in my opinion! I don't understand how he can now sell lessons when he has no horse logic.

I like Join Up is good if done right. I also think Richard Maxwell is good and learnt a few exercises from his books.
But although I enjoy the exercises I've still had to give my foal a few bops and a wallop! He needs to know I'm the boss and respect me.

i definitely agree with sometimes giving a horse a wallop or a smack with the whip, but full on hitting a horse, especially on sensitive areas, is not what I would choose to do with my particular horse. I do, however, agree some horse need to be taught, especially in those crucial stages of early learning!
Kath

 

[katastrophykat]

There's many a time I've stood in front of a horse and made myself as big as possible and said NO... Kept eye contact, squared off to them, had them back off and retreat thinking 'thank Christ for that' as even as I do it, I always have that niggling feeling that they won't stop. The last time was when I got caught in the middle (my own stupid fault) of the field when introducing my youngster to my section D's herd- section D went all Rambo on his ass and ran him off- after a day of letting them get on with it, I went in to tread the divots and check the state of the ground- seeing me in the field reignited section D's green eyes, and he chased off poor baby pony again- baby pony promptly his behind me...! Section D was coming at me then- full feet and teeth (you know that expression that's more teeth than face...) and the only choice I had was to be big! I threw my arms up, stamped my feet an shouted at him and ran him off- that's just not acceptable- while the baby pony stood behind me and sniggered!

I'm not NH, I'm self preservation!! Mine all learn manners as I'm too precious to be stood on/chucked about/barged at- I won't have it- and if that means I have to chuck my toys out of the pram, so be it.

I will add- there are two NH ladies on my yard who will happily impart their knowlege on all and sundry- nothing else is ever the right way but theirs, traditional methods are ALWAYS wrong and they have some of the stroppiest, bargy in your face horses I have ever met- one bit me yesterday while I was getting it in...

 

[katastrophykat]

That was meant to say being wary isn't a bad thing- being scared isn't a good thing Blummin iPhone!

 

[Puzzles]

so basically your scared of your horse?

That's rude! Being aware that a horse can hurt you doesn't make you scared of your horse ... it's just being aware and having sense.

Being assertive is essential but aggression isn't. If you become mroe aggressive with your horse with a horse then it is more likely to become aggressive in return; perhaps not initially but a short way down the line. Honestly, I think people resort to 'a good slap' when they don't know what else do do, but horses will always be bigger and stronger than us so we need to use our brains to train them, not our strength, and I don't believe that a horse can truly 100% trust a handler that uses pain to train it.

 

[iloveCharlie5]

self preservation sounds like a good method
oh dear, that doesn't sound like the most fun situation! (being caught between two ponies) :/
good on you!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm learning dressage from a DVD

Good for you. I'm sure that you'll be winning the gold medal at the Olymics. Yay!

I've decided to be a stunt rider, so I've set the grey up with a DVD of Cossacks doing their stunts so that she can learn what to do. I figured that I don't need to watch it now because as long as one of us is an expert, it'll be fine.




I have to admit - I'm totally confused by the resistance to Jhoward's 'bop it on the nose' advice... isn't wacking your horse in the face with the leadrope clip a tried and trusted Parelli tecnique?

 

[iloveCharlie5]

That's rude! Being aware that a horse can hurt you doesn't make you scared of your horse ... it's just being aware and having sense.

Being assertive is essential but aggression isn't. If you become mroe aggressive with your horse with a horse then it is more likely to become aggressive in return; perhaps not initially but a short way down the line. Honestly, I think people resort to 'a good slap' when they don't know what else do do, but horses will always be bigger and stronger than us so we need to use our brains to train them, not our strength, and I don't believe that a horse can truly 100% trust a handler that uses pain to train it.

I agree!!!

 

[tazzle]

I don't let him get away with anything, i would just hate to hit him. and he is perfect for me; i have improved so much since getting him

If you are just being aware that if you hit him he might retaliate ... and that you would like to consider alternatives in order to teach him what is expected of him .......then being "afraid of the consequences of retaliation" is just being aware of possible consequences

You might just be able to just back him up rather than literally bop him on the nose ....... maybe even train him to back up using positive reinforcement ... after all for all we know he has never learnt what it means


I never hit Taz to solve a problem and she was known in the rescue centre as "The Tank" ... guess why !

NOt saying that to negate others .... or say that one does not need to be assertive ......... I can assure anyone that thinks I am that I do not allow myself or anyone to be walked over lol

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Don't know what area you're in, but you might find investing in an Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate to come to your yard and give you a few ideas to help you or go to a demo.

http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/

It's a shame not to able to enjoy getting to know your new horse because of a few issues which could be very straightforward to solve.
My only advice when looking for a mentor, would be to follow your gut instincts. If their method doesn't sit comfortably with you, then it probably isn't right.

 

[Cupcakes and Horses]

Sorry only just say down again! Mainly its about teaching them pressure and release so you just move them around. I have the Richard Maxwell halter it get tight when you put pressure on the lead rope and loosens when the lead rope goes slack so to start with facing the horse you back up so the rope has pressure you don't pull as such just stand there and wait for them to work it out if they step forward its more comfortable. Do that a few times until they've got the idea then you progress onto backing them up (very good for a bargy one) you do that by walking towards them tighten the halter by pushing the lead rope then if needed push on their chest as soon add they take a step release the pressure the idea is to repeat until they go back just by you walking towards them then you work on moving their quarters same idea walking towards them hand out touch then push if needed Richard Maxwell swings them rope

 

[Cupcakes and Horses]

Sorry only just say down again! Mainly its about teaching them pressure and release so you just move them around. I have the Richard Maxwell halter it get tight when you put pressure on the lead rope and loosens when the lead rope goes slack so to start with facing the horse you back up so the rope has pressure you don't pull as such just stand there and wait for them to work it out if they step forward its more comfortable. Do that a few times until they've got the idea then you progress onto backing them up (very good for a bargy one) you do that by walking towards them tighten the halter by pushing the lead rope then if needed push on their chest as soon add they take a step release the pressure the idea is to repeat until they go back just by you walking towards them then you work on moving their quarters same idea walking towards them hand out touch then push if needed Richard Maxwell swings the rope but my pony didn't care! You just keep playing until they walk when you walk stop when you stop turn when you ask ect think it just makes them learn to be more awear of you. Horse hero had some good videos to watch.

 

[iloveCharlie5]

Good for you. I'm sure that you'll be winning the gold medal at the Olymics. Yay!

I've decided to be a stunt rider, so I've set the grey up with a DVD of Cossacks doing their stunts so that she can learn what to do. I figured that I don't need to watch it now because as long as one of us is an expert, it'll be fine.




I have to admit - I'm totally confused by the resistance to Jhoward's 'bop it on the nose' advice... isn't wacking your horse in the face with the leadrope clip a tried and trusted Parelli tecnique?

Wow; i've always wanted to be a stunt rider!
I'm not against lightly bopping it, when you know that your horse would respond best to that, but anything harder, especially on such a sensitive area, i'm afraid i don't agree with...
But then again it all depends on your horse, because the owner knows the horse best, and what it responds best to. Some horses may be naturally bold and would be corrected by harder methods, but nervous or really sensitive horses may feel threatened. But I don't know, it is up to individual preference, but I must say, in my personal opinion, i agree with Puzzles.
Kath

 

[Cupcakes and Horses]

Phone cut me off first go!

 

[jhoward]

That's rude! Being aware that a horse can hurt you doesn't make you scared of your horse ... it's just being aware and having sense.

Being assertive is essential but aggression isn't. If you become mroe aggressive with your horse with a horse then it is more likely to become aggressive in return; perhaps not initially but a short way down the line. Honestly, I think people resort to 'a good slap' when they don't know what else do do, but horses will always be bigger and stronger than us so we need to use our brains to train them, not our strength, and I don't believe that a horse can truly 100% trust a handler that uses pain to train it.

no. it was a question.

and if your foolish enough to think a slap to a horse hurts it... i meen at least half a ton of meat/skin/muscel then you are daft, do you think that when a horse barges past us, or lashes out it worries about hurting us? of course it doesnt.

have you seen some of the screw ups that horses end up becoming from the use of NH and parelli methods? especially when used in, inexperianced hands. well actully and the experianced.

 

[Cupcakes and Horses]

I didn't spell aware right had a mental block!

 

[iloveCharlie5]

If you are just being aware that if you hit him he might retaliate ... and that you would like to consider alternatives in order to teach him what is expected of him .......then being "afraid of the consequences of retaliation" is just being aware of possible consequences

You might just be able to just back him up rather than literally bop him on the nose ....... maybe even train him to back up using positive reinforcement ... after all for all we know he has never learnt what it means


I never hit Taz to solve a problem and she was known in the rescue centre as "The Tank" ... guess why !

NOt saying that to negate others .... or say that one does not need to be assertive ......... I can assure anyone that thinks I am that I do not allow myself or anyone to be walked over lol

Yep, i'm just trying to be aware of the consequences of all my actions with him. And I would just like a mutual relationship based on trust without having to be aggressiver towards him..

 

[iloveCharlie5]

no. it was a question.

and if your foolish enough to think a slap to a horse hurts it... i meen at least half a ton of meat/skin/muscel then you are daft, do you think that when a horse barges past us, or lashes out it worries about hurting us? of course it doesnt.

have you seen some of the screw ups that horses end up becoming from the use of NH and parelli methods? especially when used in, inexperianced hands. well actully and the experianced.

A horse would only lash out if it was scared, and only barge if you let it. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong; I know that it is a much supported and preferred opinion of many, I am just saying that it is not my preferred way.

 

[iloveCharlie5]

Sorry only just say down again! Mainly its about teaching them pressure and release so you just move them around. I have the Richard Maxwell halter it get tight when you put pressure on the lead rope and loosens when the lead rope goes slack so to start with facing the horse you back up so the rope has pressure you don't pull as such just stand there and wait for them to work it out if they step forward its more comfortable. Do that a few times until they've got the idea then you progress onto backing them up (very good for a bargy one) you do that by walking towards them tighten the halter by pushing the lead rope then if needed push on their chest as soon add they take a step release the pressure the idea is to repeat until they go back just by you walking towards them then you work on moving their quarters same idea walking towards them hand out touch then push if needed Richard Maxwell swings the rope but my pony didn't care! You just keep playing until they walk when you walk stop when you stop turn when you ask ect think it just makes them learn to be more awear of you. Horse hero had some good videos to watch.

Ohh i've heard about pressure and release, but never really understood it, thx for explaining

 

[tazzle]

I dont think it does any good to get into a comparrison as to which method screws horses up the most because I could cite Taz as an example that one method screwed up rather well ( not NH ) and other methods sorted........... but in reality its whatever works when applied by someone that knows what they are doing or takes the time and in the end gets a horse thats not mentally or physically stressed ...... and trusting humans rather than being afraid of the consequences ( that applies to some NH as well as several other methods btw )


Good luck with your lad .... and happy learning / exploring the wide, wide world of horses. the journey can be long and the path rocky... but by gum its never ever boring

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Wow; i've always wanted to be a stunt rider!
I'm not against lightly bopping it, when you know that your horse would respond best to that, but anything harder, especially on such a sensitive area, i'm afraid i don't agree with...
But then again it all depends on your horse, because the owner knows the horse best, and what it responds best to. Some horses may be naturally bold and would be corrected by harder methods, but nervous or really sensitive horses may feel threatened. But I don't know, it is up to individual preference, but I must say, in my personal opinion, i agree with Puzzles.
Kath

Excellent, we'll start a stunt team.

Just so you know, I don't bop any of my horses noses with their leadrope clip. I don't like pressure halters either (oh flip... I'm a fluffy bunny ).

I'm going to disagree with the 'owner knows their horse best' comment though. I've known plenty of horse/owner combinations where the horse totally has their owner's number and the owner is totally confuzzled or scared by their horse's behaviour. I used to regularly find one girl at my old livery yard unable to lead her horse in from the field. It was scarily like the piss-take example earlier in the thread.

'Oh please walk on.... come on, walk on...' Horse stands still. Half an hour later and they'd both still be there in the same flipping spot. I tried to teach her but she never took my advice, so in the end I'd just ask her whether she wanted me to lead the horse in for her. I'd take the leadrope, click my toungue and start walking and the horse would come too. *shock*

No fancy training, aggression or headcollars, just confidence that we were going to walk from the field to the yard and there was no alternative.

 

[JFTDWS]

Good for you. I'm sure that you'll be winning the gold medal at the Olymics. Yay!

I've decided to be a stunt rider, so I've set the grey up with a DVD of Cossacks doing their stunts so that she can learn what to do. I figured that I don't need to watch it now because as long as one of us is an expert, it'll be fine.

Me and Fergs at the Olympics, well I'll be there anyway for the nocturna fencing, so why not

I'm doing the stunt rider thing too (I've seen the Cossacks a few times and a few other stunt displays so I reckon I'm well-educated in it...) we could put a display on at the Olympics and make a killing - literally

 

[iloveCharlie5]

I dont think it does any good to get into a comparrison as to which method screws horses up the most because I could cite Taz as an example that one method screwed up rather well ( not NH ) and other methods sorted........... but in reality its whatever works when applied by someone that knows what they are doing or takes the time and in the end gets a horse thats not mentally or physically stressed ...... and trusting humans rather than being afraid of the consequences ( that applies to some NH as well as several other methods btw )


Good luck with your lad .... and happy learning / exploring the wide, wide world of horses. the journey can be long and the path rocky... but by gum its never ever boring

thank you for your advice, i really appreciate it!!!!
hehe, nope its never boring!!!

 

[jhoward]

A horse would only lash out if it was scared, and only barge if you let it. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong; I know that it is a much supported and preferred opinion of many, I am just saying that it is not my preferred way.

no, you are wrong a horse doesnt only lash out because its scared. if you think that your horse will for ever walk all over you. if a horse wants to barge lets face it as a human you wont stop it.. or will you?

before u all think i beat my horses, i dont.. my big lad decided to show me a leg when i asked him to move over, the third time yes his but met with a whip.. on a heavy weight stable rug it wouldnt of hurt him, but an action i rarely use so the shock along with me going towards him got the respect back.

for general information. i own a MR dually, ive worjed with a NH bloke breaking youngsters. and ive seen plenty of demos.

Excellent, we'll start a stunt team.

Just so you know, I don't bop any of my horses noses with their leadrope clip. I don't like pressure halters either (oh flip... I'm a fluffy bunny ).

I'm going to disagree with the 'owner knows their horse best' comment though. I've known plenty of horse/owner combinations where the horse totally has their owner's number and the owner is totally confuzzled or scared by their horse's behaviour. I used to regularly find one girl at my old livery yard unable to lead her horse in from the field. It was scarily like the piss-take example earlier in the thread.

'Oh please walk on.... come on, walk on...' Horse stands still. Half an hour later and they'd both still be there in the same flipping spot. I tried to teach her but she never took my advice, so in the end I'd just ask her whether she wanted me to lead the horse in for her. I'd take the leadrope, click my toungue and start walking and the horse would come too. *shock*

No fancy training, aggression or headcollars, just confidence that we were going to walk from the field to the yard and there was no alternative.

yep, good old, confidence, and common sence. theres a fellow livery where i am who has just started to use a chifney on her horse, to watch her even in the stable is very amusing...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Me and Fergs at the Olympics, well I'll be there anyway for the nocturna fencing, so why not

I'm doing the stunt rider thing too (I've seen the Cossacks a few times and a few other stunt displays so I reckon I'm well-educated in it...) we could put a display on at the Olympics and make a killing - literally

The grey is soooo up for it... only I'm a little bit concerned about her outfit. Instead of the usual black leather tack she wants it to be pink with sparkles... so I'll definately be dying of embarrassment.

 

[muff747]

I have seen a few horses who were very reluctant to have a bridle or headcollar over the poll. It transpired that the horses, owned by different people, had all been tied up in a pressure halter, and had pulled back. Subsequently were either sore on the poll or very nervous.

You should never, ever tie up with a pressure halter, this is always stressed on the instructions.
You cannot dismiss the methods when people don't follow the instructions.

 

[JFTDWS]

The grey is soooo up for it... only I'm a little bit concerned about her outfit. Instead of the usual black leather tack she wants it to be pink with sparkles... so I'll definately be dying of embarrassment.

well we're not doing matchy matchy then

We could do an angels vs demons theme and I could set fire to Fergie's feathers?