Natural horsemanship methods

tazzle said:
I dont think it does any good to get into a comparrison as to which method screws horses up the most because I could cite Taz as an example that one method screwed up rather well ( not NH :rolleyes: ) and other methods sorted........... but in reality its whatever works when applied by someone that knows what they are doing or takes the time and in the end gets a horse thats not mentally or physically stressed ...... and trusting humans rather than being afraid of the consequences ( that applies to some NH as well as several other methods btw :rolleyes:)


Good luck with your lad .... and happy learning / exploring the wide, wide world of horses. the journey can be long and the path rocky... but by gum its never ever boring :D :D :D :D
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My only comment on this thread is... Ditto! :D
 
Faracat said:
Excellent, we'll start a stunt team. :D ;)

Just so you know, I don't bop any of my horses noses with their leadrope clip. I don't like pressure halters either (oh flip... I'm a fluffy bunny :rolleyes: ).

I'm going to disagree with the 'owner knows their horse best' comment though. I've known plenty of horse/owner combinations where the horse totally has their owner's number and the owner is totally confuzzled or scared by their horse's behaviour. I used to regularly find one girl at my old livery yard unable to lead her horse in from the field. It was scarily like the piss-take example earlier in the thread.

'Oh please walk on.... come on, walk on...' Horse stands still. Half an hour later and they'd both still be there in the same flipping spot. I tried to teach her but she never took my advice, so in the end I'd just ask her whether she wanted me to lead the horse in for her. I'd take the leadrope, click my toungue and start walking and the horse would come too. *shock*

No fancy training, aggression or headcollars, just confidence that we were going to walk from the field to the yard and there was no alternative.
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Olympics here we come ;)
What ARE pressure halters anyway???....
What you said has made me rethink the owner knows best thing, so let me put it this way instead.. the person who is around the horse the most, observes it the most, knows its dislikes and likes, the person the horse trusts and is the most relaxed around knows it best? that sounds a bit better, i think???
I think this is better, because what i said probably wasn't true, and i know a few people like the girl you described.
:) Kath
 
There is no 'one size fits all' training method. Sometimes you just have to do some research and talk to a lot of people.

I use lots of different methods with my horses (cos they're all different, see? :p) and it really depends on their nature. My four-year-old is really easy to clicker train, whereas my big TB just doesn't 'get it', little TB has aggression issues, so Parelli (circus tricks anyone?) would be dangerous, they all responded really well to the Monty Roberts loading method. It just depends.

Two things you will need are patience and a damn good sense of timing.
 
jhoward said:
no, you are wrong a horse doesnt only lash out because its scared. if you think that your horse will for ever walk all over you. if a horse wants to barge lets face it as a human you wont stop it.. or will you?

before u all think i beat my horses, i dont.. my big lad decided to show me a leg when i asked him to move over, the third time yes his but met with a whip.. on a heavy weight stable rug it wouldnt of hurt him, but an action i rarely use so the shock along with me going towards him got the respect back.

for general information. i own a MR dually, ive worjed with a NH bloke breaking youngsters. and ive seen plenty of demos.




yep, good old, confidence, and common sence. theres a fellow livery where i am who has just started to use a chifney on her horse, to watch her even in the stable is very amusing...
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You may well be right (i'm not saying you aren't) but personally, I don't think horses are mean, but we as humans make them mean or scared by mistreating them, and that is why they lash out. As for barging, in my personal opinion, it is all due to correct teaching as a youngster. But I am only stating from personal opinion and experience. :D
Kath :)
 
JFTD said:
well we're not doing matchy matchy then :eek:

We could do an angels vs demons theme and I could set fire to Fergie's feathers?
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I'm assuming that the feathers are asbestos coated? :D :cool:

She'll probably go for your theme as long as I let her have all the sparkles she wants. :(
 
Faracat said:
I'm assuming that the feathers are asbestos coated? :D :cool:

She'll probably go for your theme as long as I let her have all the sparkles she wants. :(
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Standard highand issue asbestos, of course...

Yes, she can prance around all pink and sparkly crying "I'm an angel!"

Best not tell her that she'll be attacked by a fiery beast from the underworld though :eek:
 
A lot of NH is common sense minus the gadgets.

If you have a horse that will react badly to a slap and it'll have the opposite affect to what you want to achieve then don't do it.

But horse to horse discipline is a mix of body language and a damn site more than a slap if the warnings are not heeded.
 
Cupcakes and Horses said:
Sorry only just say down again! Mainly its about teaching them pressure and release so you just move them around. I have the Richard Maxwell halter it get tight when you put pressure on the lead rope and loosens when the lead rope goes slack so to start with facing the horse you back up so the rope has pressure you don't pull as such just stand there and wait for them to work it out if they step forward its more comfortable. Do that a few times until they've got the idea then you progress onto backing them up (very good for a bargy one) you do that by walking towards them tighten the halter by pushing the lead rope then if needed push on their chest as soon add they take a step release the pressure the idea is to repeat until they go back just by you walking towards them then you work on moving their quarters same idea walking towards them hand out touch then push if needed Richard Maxwell swings them rope
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This is soooo difficult to understand when there's hardly any puntuation.
 
iloveCharlie5 said:
You may well be right (i'm not saying you aren't) but personally, I don't think horses are mean, but we as humans make them mean or scared by mistreating them, and that is why they lash out. As for barging, in my personal opinion, it is all due to correct teaching as a youngster. But I am only stating from personal opinion and experience. :D
Kath :)
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I agree; horses aren't 'mean' they are just programmed to find a place in the herd hierarchy.
You want to have a loving relationship of mutual respect and trust with your pony.
Your pony wants to be the boss of you so that he has first chance at food, water, escaping danger, and the prospect of mating.
Horses naturally (did you see what I did there? :p) sort out dominance hierarchies by behavioural signals - on an escalating scale from the mild ear back, muzzle tilt, to the full on double barrel.
If I were you, I'd be making sure I was the strong leader, not the beaten up follower in your horse/human herd, and the clearest signal to your horse would be physically inhabiting his space, and chasing him out of it, using bite, kick threats as he would.
S :D
 
iloveCharlie5 said:
You may well be right (i'm not saying you aren't) but personally, I don't think horses are mean, but we as humans make them mean or scared by mistreating them, and that is why they lash out. As for barging, in my personal opinion, it is all due to correct teaching as a youngster. But I am only stating from personal opinion and experience. :D
Kath :)
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One of mine is mean. :( She teases me and calls me names.

On a serious note, she will lash out if you correct her and she thinks that she's right and you're wrong, which happens every nown and again. EG, I ask her to steady (and I asked her nicely) as I don't really want to canter down the road, particually as I was on foot at the time. She says 'sod off I want to go fast'. I correct again and she complies but lets her frustration be known by kicking out a leg.

She's only ever had fantastic handlers and has never been beaten. I was talking to a friend about her the other day and they were saying that she's the sort of horse that would really scare a novice. I couldn't disagree. When you're grooming etc.. she is actually the sweetest horse ever and she will do what you ask with gusto in regards to her training. You must however, correct her straight away if she tests the rules or you're stuffed.
 
jhoward said:
no. it was a question.

and if your foolish enough to think a slap to a horse hurts it... i meen at least half a ton of meat/skin/muscel then you are daft, do you think that when a horse barges past us, or lashes out it worries about hurting us? of course it doesnt.

have you seen some of the screw ups that horses end up becoming from the use of NH and parelli methods? especially when used in, inexperianced hands. well actully and the experianced. :rolleyes:
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I'm not following your reasoning. However I absolutely agree that some Parelli-trained horses become more difficult and their behaviour worsens, just as horses trained in many other NH and traditional methods experience the same. Not really a Parelli fan tbh: I oggled at a free DVD and left it at that ...
Both experienced amd inexperienced riders have problems with horses, irrespective of their methods, as we all do at various points.
Re. horse to horse communication: for one, horses speak the same language, we don't. Secondly, horses don't use physical means as punishment. Thirdly, it is in the best interests of every horse in that herd - and importantly, is understood by every horse - that it is not about a fight for dominance but about survival and keeping each other safe. The lead horse has a lot of responsibility for the rest of the herd that the rest are more than willing to give. The remaining horses so not submit to the lead horse but coperate with each other. The human-horse relationship is very difficult to compare with a horse-horse relationship.
There seems to be a general idea that not hitting your horse equates to being a sap ... I am by no means a push-over and am very assertive with the horses I ride, as if you give them an inch they'll take a mile...
 
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Shilasdair said:
I agree; horses aren't 'mean' they are just programmed to find a place in the herd hierarchy.
You want to have a loving relationship of mutual respect and trust with your pony.
Your pony wants to be the boss of you so that he has first chance at food, water, escaping danger, and the prospect of mating.
Horses naturally (did you see what I did there? :p) sort out dominance hierarchies by behavioural signals - on an escalating scale from the mild ear back, muzzle tilt, to the full on double barrel.
If I were you, I'd be making sure I was the strong leader, not the beaten up follower in your horse/human herd, and the clearest signal to your horse would be physically inhabiting his space, and chasing him out of it, using bite, kick threats as he would.
S :D
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I agree with almost every bit of this, however when removing the horse from your space why do you need to be aggressive to do so? On the occasions when any of mine have come into my space univited I'll push them back with my hand on their chest and that's sufficient, it's rare that they step into my space now. I appreciate if they're barging to a dangerous extent then you need to do something more dramatic, but for an average barge then surely a normal back up and away is sufficient?
 
Sorry computer crashed yesterday so on phone and not easy to read back and edit. Richard Maxwell has a video on horse hero dealing wi a horse that wont load but before he tackles that he goes though the basics with the halter it makes more sense when you watch.
 
I have always loved Monty Roberts methods. Now that I am getting back into spending time with my horse (since having a baby) I am reading up on his methods again and am also currently reading Unlock Your Horses Talent in 20 minutes a day by Richard Maxwell (& Johanna Sharples).

I am loving his book and methods and once I have a thorough understanding can't wait to put them to action with my boy.

(at the risk of being shot) I love Monty Roberts because his methods don't require you to purchase specific items required by specific trainers in order to do what they tell you.

I have had the most success with Monty's methods when I have no tack at all on my horse and only a lunge whip to use as an extension of my arm.
 
JFTD said:
I'm learning dressage from a DVD :D
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HA :D But if your learning dressage from this dvd does this mean your no longer going to join me in breaking pony ribs?

I think its possibly best I dont share what whips are known as round mine ;) because I can assure you its a lot less friendly than a carrot stick :p
 
Shilasdair said:
I agree; horses aren't 'mean' they are just programmed to find a place in the herd hierarchy.
You want to have a loving relationship of mutual respect and trust with your pony.
Your pony wants to be the boss of you so that he has first chance at food, water, escaping danger, and the prospect of mating.
Horses naturally (did you see what I did there? :p) sort out dominance hierarchies by behavioural signals - on an escalating scale from the mild ear back, muzzle tilt, to the full on double barrel.
If I were you, I'd be making sure I was the strong leader, not the beaten up follower in your horse/human herd, and the clearest signal to your horse would be physically inhabiting his space, and chasing him out of it, using bite, kick threats as he would.
S :D
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Thank you so much for the advice, i will definitely take heed of that and use it :)
Kath
 
Like Paris1 I've seen a few ponies traumatised by it, including one who was broken in by someone recomended from a website who bolted through a fence with him! He was a lovely little chap, I never had a problem, but I could never get his future child rider to foget what happened and they had to get rid of him. As he was a homebred it was all retty upsetting
 
Faracat said:
One of mine is mean. :( She teases me and calls me names.

On a serious note, she will lash out if you correct her and she thinks that she's right and you're wrong, which happens every nown and again. EG, I ask her to steady (and I asked her nicely) as I don't really want to canter down the road, particually as I was on foot at the time. She says 'sod off I want to go fast'. I correct again and she complies but lets her frustration be known by kicking out a leg.

She's only ever had fantastic handlers and has never been beaten. I was talking to a friend about her the other day and they were saying that she's the sort of horse that would really scare a novice. I couldn't disagree. When you're grooming etc.. she is actually the sweetest horse ever and she will do what you ask with gusto in regards to her training. You must however, correct her straight away if she tests the rules or you're stuffed.
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lol on the first bit ;)
you sound like you have her well under control :)
Kath :D
 
rlhnlk said:
I agree with almost every bit of this, however when removing the horse from your space why do you need to be aggressive to do so? On the occasions when any of mine have come into my space univited I'll push them back with my hand on their chest and that's sufficient, it's rare that they step into my space now. I appreciate if they're barging to a dangerous extent then you need to do something more dramatic, but for an average barge then surely a normal back up and away is sufficient?
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I agree, if mine comes into my space i just push him away and say no! :)
 
rlhnlk said:
I agree with almost every bit of this, however when removing the horse from your space why do you need to be aggressive to do so? On the occasions when any of mine have come into my space univited I'll push them back with my hand on their chest and that's sufficient, it's rare that they step into my space now. I appreciate if they're barging to a dangerous extent then you need to do something more dramatic, but for an average barge then surely a normal back up and away is sufficient?
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Physically pushing them is, in horse terms, an aggression signal.
I do use this - I never move out of my horses' way - they move out of mine as this is a key signal of dominance to them. Using words like 'over' and 'back' are ideal.
If they ignore that, I square up to them and walk quickly towards them with my shoulders tensed.
Using a hand to push or a finger to prod are actually mild aggression, but that's the next level I would use.
S :D
 
I started doing Parelli about 12 years ago and it was brilliant. I think the present day programme is nothing like it was then!! The basic 7 games are everything, along with phases, keys, principles, responsibilities. As with every method of horsemanship you get people doing it well, and people doing it badly. So it is important not to make assumptions about any method. Most are based along similar lines, in fact many methods are spin offs from Parelli's original programme......and when I started this my thoughts were "wow", that's what my old mentors back in the 50s used to say!!!
 
Yay my computers turned back on :D

I've never really looked into or done Parelli but I do know someone who has been doing it for three years and has major tunnel vision. This would be fine if it was working but it seems to me she plays with her horse more than she rides it and it hasn't actually solved anything, the horse is still rude, still barges, still takes off when on long lines and when it is ridden still naps both alone and in company. So I cant see that its improved the respect/bond at all.

I personally think that you are best to be open, read, watch and learn from other people and then take what you feel comfortable with and what is appropriate for you and your horse.
 
dafthoss said:
HA :D But if your learning dressage from this dvd does this mean your no longer going to join me in breaking pony ribs?

I think its possibly best I dont share what whips are known as round mine ;) because I can assure you its a lot less friendly than a carrot stick :p
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Oooh ooh can I tell the stories about you and your whip and hacking and meeting people? :D:D:D

I don't have to break his ribs to do dressage 'cos I learnt (from the DVD) how to make him go forwards without it I haven't got a "How to get your horse off your leg while hacking" DVD yet so I will still break them while hacking :D

You're not, by any chance hacking today, are you?
 
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