Araminta
Well-Known Member
Well said.
Natural Horsemanship vs Traditional methods
- Thread starter TicTac
- Start date
highlandhart
Well-Known Member
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&!!s&T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&!!s&T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....
[/ QUOTE ]
you forgot "sh1t"!!
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&!!s&T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....
[/ QUOTE ]
you forgot "sh1t"!!
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&!!s&T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever stood back and really looked at how a horse is put together?
They have just the right length of back to seat a man (person for the feminists).
They have gaits that are really quite comfortable when compared to other animals of the same physique (think cows, camels)
They are fast across land and able to cross most terrain be it sand, mud, hills, flat.
They are able to jump in a comfortable manner that a person can easily sit (have you ever seen a camel or cow jump?!)
They cope well in varying temparture, almost as well as people.
They have a bar in their mouth which most other grazing mammals lack, which is oh so handy for a little bit of steering.
If I had never seen a watch before and found one on a beach I wouldn't think it had just evolved to be a watch, I would think someone had designed it that way, almost like the horse was a gift...see siggy
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&!!s&T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever stood back and really looked at how a horse is put together?
They have just the right length of back to seat a man (person for the feminists).
They have gaits that are really quite comfortable when compared to other animals of the same physique (think cows, camels)
They are fast across land and able to cross most terrain be it sand, mud, hills, flat.
They are able to jump in a comfortable manner that a person can easily sit (have you ever seen a camel or cow jump?!)
They cope well in varying temparture, almost as well as people.
They have a bar in their mouth which most other grazing mammals lack, which is oh so handy for a little bit of steering.
If I had never seen a watch before and found one on a beach I wouldn't think it had just evolved to be a watch, I would think someone had designed it that way, almost like the horse was a gift...see siggy
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
All horse training comes with a price tag!
[/ QUOTE ]
Not the phenominal price tags attached to Parelli et al it doesn't! I really object to them taking large amounts of money off people for what is basic common horsesense with a few shiny objects to add mystique.
As someone has already said, Parelli is mutated traditional with props. The carrot stick is an orange piaffe whip, the bouncing green ball I see no practical reason for. I have always done ground work with my horses, starting at around 2, although I don't call them games, I would call myself a traditionalist.
My biggest bugbears with the 'natural' horsemanship schemes, is that their pupils are often (but not always) very novice and become tunnel visioned believing that theirs is the only way, once you start thinking that way, you stop learning, and everyone knows that you never stop learning with horses! Join up is nothing new, my, and I am sure many others, horses have been doing it for years.
I have seen several horses made into nervious wrecks or conversly take over the relationship completely and start calling the shots, all in the name of Parelli. This is because people think they can watch a demo, buy a very expensive video course, an equally expensive carrot stick and become a Parelli expert. This gives them the right to look down their noses at traditionalists and shriek theirs is the only way, whilst askling their horses if it is ok to ride them today - no - ok dear maybe tomorrow. I saw a demo last summer where the guy was talking about a forthcoming series of demos at the NEC, he stated "Only come if you truly and I mean truly love your horse, if you don't love your horse, don't come", that really angered me as it suggested that only people who are interested in Parelli love their horses.
I need to stop now, am rambling, but could go on forever
All horse training comes with a price tag!
[/ QUOTE ]
Not the phenominal price tags attached to Parelli et al it doesn't! I really object to them taking large amounts of money off people for what is basic common horsesense with a few shiny objects to add mystique.
As someone has already said, Parelli is mutated traditional with props. The carrot stick is an orange piaffe whip, the bouncing green ball I see no practical reason for. I have always done ground work with my horses, starting at around 2, although I don't call them games, I would call myself a traditionalist.
My biggest bugbears with the 'natural' horsemanship schemes, is that their pupils are often (but not always) very novice and become tunnel visioned believing that theirs is the only way, once you start thinking that way, you stop learning, and everyone knows that you never stop learning with horses! Join up is nothing new, my, and I am sure many others, horses have been doing it for years.
I have seen several horses made into nervious wrecks or conversly take over the relationship completely and start calling the shots, all in the name of Parelli. This is because people think they can watch a demo, buy a very expensive video course, an equally expensive carrot stick and become a Parelli expert. This gives them the right to look down their noses at traditionalists and shriek theirs is the only way, whilst askling their horses if it is ok to ride them today - no - ok dear maybe tomorrow. I saw a demo last summer where the guy was talking about a forthcoming series of demos at the NEC, he stated "Only come if you truly and I mean truly love your horse, if you don't love your horse, don't come", that really angered me as it suggested that only people who are interested in Parelli love their horses.
I need to stop now, am rambling, but could go on forever
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
Naturally, I for one am not going to slate you, you have said, in a much more eloquent way than I, what I was trying to say (and failed miserably
)
It should not be a versus situation, but this has been brought about by Parelli himself brainwashing people into thinking his is the only way.
It should not be a versus situation, but this has been brought about by Parelli himself brainwashing people into thinking his is the only way.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you have got me started now!!!!!!!!!!
I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.
NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.
I told you that you had got me started
I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.
NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.
I told you that you had got me started
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
...................................and breathe
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
LOL................................... and breathes
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you read any of Monty Roberts horse stuff he states this as a fact, he does not believe in treats for horses in any way shape or form. A reward is a pat on the head not a sweet, when he discusses loading he laughs at people that wander into the trailer with a bucket of feed hoping the horse will choose food over flight.
[ QUOTE ]
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
ETS: and the 30 minute backing is just for demonstration purposes, it proves he can do something that traditional people cannot. In his books and at demo's he specifically states that he spend time joining up with a horse and gradually introduces tack etc over a period of time depending on the horse. I have used his method to back 5 horses now, they have all went on to live happy competiton horse lives.
One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you read any of Monty Roberts horse stuff he states this as a fact, he does not believe in treats for horses in any way shape or form. A reward is a pat on the head not a sweet, when he discusses loading he laughs at people that wander into the trailer with a bucket of feed hoping the horse will choose food over flight.
[ QUOTE ]
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
ETS: and the 30 minute backing is just for demonstration purposes, it proves he can do something that traditional people cannot. In his books and at demo's he specifically states that he spend time joining up with a horse and gradually introduces tack etc over a period of time depending on the horse. I have used his method to back 5 horses now, they have all went on to live happy competiton horse lives.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!
One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.
Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.
So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you.
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!
One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.
Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.
So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you.
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you have got me started now!!!!!!!!!!
I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.
NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.
I told you that you had got me started
[/ QUOTE ]
BLOODY WELL SAID!!!!!!!
exactly what i would like to have written...but without me swearing!!!!
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you have got me started now!!!!!!!!!!
I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.
NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.
I told you that you had got me started
[/ QUOTE ]
BLOODY WELL SAID!!!!!!!
exactly what i would like to have written...but without me swearing!!!!
JM07
Well-Known Member
have you had the "pleasure" of meeting MR, silverspring???
he is certainly a charmer....and a fabulous storyteller......
he is certainly a charmer....and a fabulous storyteller......
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, everything you have said I have heard him use as techniques, the leg kicking and the gumlines etc. I wasn't there so I don't know the exact situation but I imagine he would have assumed the lady with the biting horse was a horse person that knew not to feed a biter. He is not Parelli, he assumes his audience have basic horse knowledge.
Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it? I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK. The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be.
Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it? I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK. The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be.
TicTac
Well-Known Member
I knew this subject would get a good response!! There are many fantastic horsemen (and women of course ) out there passing their skills and knowledge around. I believe you have to find a trainer and method wich bests suits your personal choice for training your horse. Yes, there are also many unscrupulous trainers out there as well. People who choose to follow their methods probably don't have the best interest of the horse at heart anyway.
I do believe that all training comes with a price tag, which again you can choose to buy into or not. Most of our top riders have tack, clothing or equipment marketed in thier name. and again which some people believe if they use will make the horses go better.
I have many years experience and success under my belt having originally been taught the ' traditional ' way. I do like the NH way of training in some ways but am very much a good practice person at heart what ever that may be. What sickens me most is seeing bad riding and ill treatment of horses. Patience and perseverance are some of the greatest tools.
It has been really interesting reading the replies and as I said obviously an emotive subject!
I do believe that all training comes with a price tag, which again you can choose to buy into or not. Most of our top riders have tack, clothing or equipment marketed in thier name. and again which some people believe if they use will make the horses go better.
I have many years experience and success under my belt having originally been taught the ' traditional ' way. I do like the NH way of training in some ways but am very much a good practice person at heart what ever that may be. What sickens me most is seeing bad riding and ill treatment of horses. Patience and perseverance are some of the greatest tools.
It has been really interesting reading the replies and as I said obviously an emotive subject!
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it? I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK. The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I would never have got a horse to that stage in the first place, the broncing horse had been started using the MONTY method, I personally know the owner (but I will keep my judgement of her to myself). I would have turned it away for a month or two and then started all over again, gaining the horses trust, not resorting to quick fire methods, which did involve cruelty, when he had finished the horse was bleeding badly from the mouth. Its the side show, circus acts that he takes around the country, charging people money to show them just how to ruin their horses. He assumes his audience has a basic knowledge of horses, well I can assure you that 90% of the people watching have no idea what so ever, the other 10% go for a laugh. Does a basic knowledge of horses cover the physical, stressful and mental knowledge that a horse goes though when being backed, not with any people of that level I have met.
The lady with the biting horse had had the horse since it was 6 months old, she had created the biting herself, which is one of the things I would have pointed out quite clearly to her and the rest of the audience. If the horse would not know it was her who kicked it, then I am dying to know who or what it would think caused the pain. after all they are capable of conscious thought, the blade of grass, a rouge fly, the mind boggles. I want to see the horse in 6 months time when not only is it still biting, but it is also lashing out with its front leg too, then she will have to dodge the teeth and the legs.
Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it? I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK. The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I would never have got a horse to that stage in the first place, the broncing horse had been started using the MONTY method, I personally know the owner (but I will keep my judgement of her to myself). I would have turned it away for a month or two and then started all over again, gaining the horses trust, not resorting to quick fire methods, which did involve cruelty, when he had finished the horse was bleeding badly from the mouth. Its the side show, circus acts that he takes around the country, charging people money to show them just how to ruin their horses. He assumes his audience has a basic knowledge of horses, well I can assure you that 90% of the people watching have no idea what so ever, the other 10% go for a laugh. Does a basic knowledge of horses cover the physical, stressful and mental knowledge that a horse goes though when being backed, not with any people of that level I have met.
The lady with the biting horse had had the horse since it was 6 months old, she had created the biting herself, which is one of the things I would have pointed out quite clearly to her and the rest of the audience. If the horse would not know it was her who kicked it, then I am dying to know who or what it would think caused the pain. after all they are capable of conscious thought, the blade of grass, a rouge fly, the mind boggles. I want to see the horse in 6 months time when not only is it still biting, but it is also lashing out with its front leg too, then she will have to dodge the teeth and the legs.
Leah3horses
Well-Known Member
Some people shouldn't have a goldfish never mind a horse!
MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing?
I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.
As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?
Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???
Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.
There is good in every method to some degree or another for different people surely,you just have to be very picky and use what suits you, your level of experience and is humane for animals imo.
MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing?
I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.
As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?
Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???
Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.
There is good in every method to some degree or another for different people surely,you just have to be very picky and use what suits you, your level of experience and is humane for animals imo.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Some people shouldn't have a goldfish never mind a horse!
<font color="blue">Oh I so agree </font>
MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing?
<font color="blue">In cowboy circles perhaps, but we british have not 'broken' horses like that for many many years. We have 'backed' and 'started' them </font>
I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.
<font color="blue">I agree with this </font>
As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?
<font color="blue"> Mainly agree with this, but do believe that brutal heavyhandedness is not as common as people like MR and PP would have us think - after all, they seem to be making a fortune out of other people's heavyhandedness and how else could they make money hand over fist </font>
Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???
<font color="blue">I have not seen this screeching woman round the corner, however I don't doubt she exists, and no, I don't believe that Parelli in particular is any better - seen too many screwed up 'problem' horses come out of his programme. Re MR, I know for a fact that he hand picks every single horse that takes part in his demos, he refused to take one belonging to an aquantance of mine. </font>
Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.
<font color="blue"> Yes, you are right, we should remain open minded, this is how we learn, sadly I have learned that Parelli/MR x novice owner is a dangerous combination.
</font>
Some people shouldn't have a goldfish never mind a horse!
<font color="blue">Oh I so agree </font>
MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing?
<font color="blue">In cowboy circles perhaps, but we british have not 'broken' horses like that for many many years. We have 'backed' and 'started' them </font>
I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.
<font color="blue">I agree with this </font>
As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?
<font color="blue"> Mainly agree with this, but do believe that brutal heavyhandedness is not as common as people like MR and PP would have us think - after all, they seem to be making a fortune out of other people's heavyhandedness and how else could they make money hand over fist </font>
Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???
<font color="blue">I have not seen this screeching woman round the corner, however I don't doubt she exists, and no, I don't believe that Parelli in particular is any better - seen too many screwed up 'problem' horses come out of his programme. Re MR, I know for a fact that he hand picks every single horse that takes part in his demos, he refused to take one belonging to an aquantance of mine. </font>
Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.
<font color="blue"> Yes, you are right, we should remain open minded, this is how we learn, sadly I have learned that Parelli/MR x novice owner is a dangerous combination.
</font>
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
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I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
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Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!
One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.
Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.
So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you.
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*applauds* cruiseline
[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses. He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!
One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.
Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.
So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
*applauds* cruiseline
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I have watched NH demos at a large show centre (not saying whom) and the horses are NOT as they tell you, unseen by them. They take in many more horses than they need, then work them for hours the day of the demo (if it is in the evening) so the horse knows what it had better do, and they can keep the more predictable, compliant ones.
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this
S
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this
S
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have watched NH demos at a large show centre (not saying whom) and the horses are NOT as they tell you, unseen by them. They take in many more horses than they need, then work them for hours the day of the demo (if it is in the evening) so the horse knows what it had better do, and they can keep the more predictable, compliant ones.
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this
S
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, they are all hand picked, including the one I stupidly allowed Monty Roberts to use. Granted he was not backed, but he had been stabled since birth, had front shoes on (he had been lunged) and handled from he day the popped into the world. In the demo he made out that the horse had never had his feet picked up in his life, and how suspicious he was of people, I did point out to him (in a rather loud voice) that it actually had front shoes on, which he had failed to notice.
I don't think he liked me
I have watched NH demos at a large show centre (not saying whom) and the horses are NOT as they tell you, unseen by them. They take in many more horses than they need, then work them for hours the day of the demo (if it is in the evening) so the horse knows what it had better do, and they can keep the more predictable, compliant ones.
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this
S
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, they are all hand picked, including the one I stupidly allowed Monty Roberts to use. Granted he was not backed, but he had been stabled since birth, had front shoes on (he had been lunged) and handled from he day the popped into the world. In the demo he made out that the horse had never had his feet picked up in his life, and how suspicious he was of people, I did point out to him (in a rather loud voice) that it actually had front shoes on, which he had failed to notice.
I don't think he liked me
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique
with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
LOL fabulous
Leah3horses
Well-Known Member
Just want to point out in my last post I wasn't endorsing MR and definitly not Parelli, just saying people will always have different opinions on all types of training.The people who attend these things, which are often staged as everybody knows, and think they are an expert without any further research or experience will ruin horses I agree.But then this type of people will ruin any horse they get their hands on,as they always think they know it all when nobody does.
I'm afraid in my own personal experience I have experienced over 50 horses I know of being 'backed'using outdated,very cruel methods, here in the UK and also several European countries.I've had to help rehab them.In most UK horse rescues there will still be casualties of such methods every year.It does happen, and so does brute force and extreme heavyhandedness.I had to witness it every day at my last yard,courtesy of the next door 'dressage rider' neighbours. And they actually asked me how I got my horses to come running every time I went to their field, as she complained hers ran away from her!!???
Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol
I'm afraid in my own personal experience I have experienced over 50 horses I know of being 'backed'using outdated,very cruel methods, here in the UK and also several European countries.I've had to help rehab them.In most UK horse rescues there will still be casualties of such methods every year.It does happen, and so does brute force and extreme heavyhandedness.I had to witness it every day at my last yard,courtesy of the next door 'dressage rider' neighbours. And they actually asked me how I got my horses to come running every time I went to their field, as she complained hers ran away from her!!???
Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
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Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol
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Just be glad you didn't have to endure my father speculating whether the mustang had 'accidentally galloped over' a set of shoes...
S
Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol
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Just be glad you didn't have to endure my father speculating whether the mustang had 'accidentally galloped over' a set of shoes...
S
Laafet
Well-Known Member
I too have had the pleasure of giving over my horse to MR for a demo. I was pleased on the night but have watched the DVD of the whole thing numerous times since and become more sceptical. I grant that he is a fantastic horseman, but he tell fantastic stories too. He said that my boy was 3 and totally wild, which I corrected when I was asked to tell MR about my problems, he is 5 and broken in just very unsure of new situations and a bit of a loon in general having been an unhandled 4 year old PB Welshie when I got him. He kept going on about how he had not touched T at all before the demo. No he hadn't but his mate, who was in the arena had worked him for an hour during the day. Also he carefully worded his questions to get the responce he wanted from me and I duelly obliged (sp). My horse was exposed to the palstic bag thingy and while he will be led over tarpaulin and have plastic bags on his back he is still sh*t scared of them in other situations. So what did the demo achieve, well, T did get to experience a big crowd which is good for his competitions in the future and he was desensitised to certain situations that will never occur again in his life. They chose T because he looked wild and snorted lots, making MR look very good. They admitted that, and said it made it easier for the audience to understand what was going on.
Also I think it was in Horse magazine recently where they had an article on the truth about NH and how there is no proof that horses can see us a 'friends' even if we do try to speak their lingo as we are basically predators and the round pen is tantamount to cruelty as it stops the horse doing what it wants to do.
I believe in good horsemanship and take on the bits I think work. Yes I do have a dually halter for T but only for leading, it is no good for loading. I use a chain over the nose on Murphy or Chifney on either when they are fresh as both respect this. I do not abuse the tools I have but use them to help my horses get whatever I ask of them right everytime. This is positive reinforcement. Parelli was also flagged up the article as using a lot of negative reinforcement and I think the yo yo game is good example of this, if the horse does not respond to the waving finger then wave the rope - is this not a threat? Its a bit like shouting at foriegners to make them understand. Hope this all makes sense.
Also I think it was in Horse magazine recently where they had an article on the truth about NH and how there is no proof that horses can see us a 'friends' even if we do try to speak their lingo as we are basically predators and the round pen is tantamount to cruelty as it stops the horse doing what it wants to do.
I believe in good horsemanship and take on the bits I think work. Yes I do have a dually halter for T but only for leading, it is no good for loading. I use a chain over the nose on Murphy or Chifney on either when they are fresh as both respect this. I do not abuse the tools I have but use them to help my horses get whatever I ask of them right everytime. This is positive reinforcement. Parelli was also flagged up the article as using a lot of negative reinforcement and I think the yo yo game is good example of this, if the horse does not respond to the waving finger then wave the rope - is this not a threat? Its a bit like shouting at foriegners to make them understand. Hope this all makes sense.
JM07
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique
with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
[/ QUOTE ]
i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh???
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
[/ QUOTE ]
i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh???
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
Makes perfect sense, when will people wise up to MR & co and stop handing them their hard earned cash.
There is a website alledgedly exposing MR's lies, specifically about his parents:
www.montyrobertslies.com
There is a website alledgedly exposing MR's lies, specifically about his parents:
www.montyrobertslies.com
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique
with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
[/ QUOTE ]
i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh???
[/ QUOTE ]
Did MR not do a similar thing? Chased a poor mustang for four days, then when it was absolutely knackered got on it?
ETS: Just remembered, he wrote a bl@@dy book about it - Shyboy
[ QUOTE ]
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on. I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S
[/ QUOTE ]
i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh???
[/ QUOTE ]
Did MR not do a similar thing? Chased a poor mustang for four days, then when it was absolutely knackered got on it?
ETS: Just remembered, he wrote a bl@@dy book about it - Shyboy
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it!