Natural Horsemanship vs Traditional methods

[SirenaXVI]

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Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it!

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OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him

 

[Shilasdair]

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Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it!

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OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him

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And were there not studies into the hunting of deer, which said that the deer showed high levels of stress hormones after being chased...
(Not pro or anti hunting, just saying)
S

 

[Laafet]

Positive reinforcement, I think not then. All the crap about good teachers guide not force education, well if I was chased round a pen then I'd call that forcing.

 

[SirenaXVI]

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Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it!

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OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him

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And were there not studies into the hunting of deer, which said that the deer showed high levels of stress hormones after being chased...
(Not pro or anti hunting, just saying)
S

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Indeed there were Shils, sadly I don't think the government will ban MR - we can but dream

 

[SirenaXVI]

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Positive reinforcement, I think not then. All the crap about good teachers guide not force education, well if I was chased round a pen then I'd call that forcing.

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Am almost sure (someone correct me if I am wrong) that the reason Richard Maxwell parted company with MR was for exactly that reason

 

[Laafet]

I think some people get into desperate situations through either their own stupidity or sheer bad luck and then look for some 'Messiah' to show them the way. This is where MR and PP come in. I had terrible problems with Tarquin and getting him to progress in his training. I was saving up to send him away as I was just so desperate for him to be normal. Then I did a very sensible thing and had a lesson with a local trainer and hey presto he is great now. It wasn't that I am a cr*p rider, as I am not, it was that I had lost my way and was all worked up about getting it right. I was only being told to do what I knew to do, but as I had got so stressed out I just wasn't thinking for myself. I am so glad now that I did not waste 1000 on him going RM or anyone else. Not because they would not have done a good job, but because it was a simple problem with a simple solution. I needed lessons!!!!

 

[Laafet]

Oh was it really, how interesting I was always curious over why they split up? I also do have a lot of respect for Micheal Peace, he speaks a lot of sense.

 

[JM07]

i think these people actually "play-up" to some types of horse/pony owner......

 

[Laafet]

I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all. It was their owners and most of the time they just needed some decent lessons and taught how to behave so that their horse did too. Simple. But as I am aware it is the simple answers that are often ignored. Tell someone that you need to do x y and z to get their horse to behave and they love it, tell them they need to get more horse experience and they don't.

 

[burtie]

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I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all.

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Sadly true, I have often been asked to school difficult horses only to get on them and find they do nothing wrong!

 

[Shilasdair]

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I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all.

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Sadly true, I have often been asked to school difficult horses only to get on them and find they do nothing wrong!

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That's the worst though - especially if they haven't told you what the horse is supposed to do wrong. If it doesn't do the usual rearing/broncing/bolting routine...you start to think it must be something truly horrific.
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[Natch]

QR

Monty Roberts was "the orignal natural horseman" - as far as I understand it, he brought forward a message that non-violence worked better than violence and force. That was to an American cowboy audience several decades ago. I'm not saying these things didn't exist before he came around, but then I don't think he was, either. HIS methods were new, the logic behind them wasn't. And he happened to become a good public personality and was able to spread his word far and wide. Pretty much what the Parellis have taken over doing the same with.

NH methods has evolved a hell of a lot since then, its just a pity that some of the most well known and publicised ones have forgotten what was really important and greed and fame has overcome. IMHO some of the best trainers and practitioners in the area are the least well known - and IMO this is because they give a damn about doing the best they can for the horse's sake, rather than being a brand and a publicity money spinning machine.

Many NH trainers now don't teach join up, because they believe it to be agressive and gives the horse no choice. They do other things instead because the process has evolved and is constantly evolving. At its "introduction," join up was believed to be kinder than the alternative way of backing a horse. Whatever people say, I know people to this day who believe that a horse should be "broken" - they don't use methods as physically harsh as the ones Monty describes, and some of them don't realise what they are doing to the horse's mind, but the end product is a horse who has lost its zest and personnality and becomes a yes machine, and that way is still considered to be normal. Funnily enough these horses rarely make top level horses.



The leg kicking thing - again, thought patterns evolve - the alternative when he dreamt it up would have been smack the horse in the gob and make it headshy - therefore kicking its leg (for the sake of grace I am assuming we are not talking about booting but a bit more than a nudge) would have been considered the lesser of the two evils. The bailing twine thing I can't comment on as I have not heard of or witnessed it, but I have met Mr Roberts, seen enough Parelli demos and head enough from good sources to make up my own mind about them. Again, I believe that fame and fortune sadly got in the way of the primary objective - to teach kinder but still effective methods of horsemanship, whatever they may be.

 

[cruiseline]

Naturally, if that is what you truly think then that is fine, every one is allowed their religion. But I am fed up of the NATURAL bunch telling the rest of the world that they have no idea and have been doing it wrong!!!!!!!!!!

MR says in his demos and I quote, as I have them on video 'if you start your horse the way I am going to show you, you will have a better horse at the end of the day'. I challenged him on this question, I asked him why would it be a better horse. His answer was 'because it will be', I pointed out that he had not really answered my question "why would it be a better horse'. His came back with the same answer and then spent 10 minutes on one of his stories.

There is no way on this earth I am going to believe that it would be a better horse because MR say so, who does he think he is fooling, only the weak and inexperienced.

If you truly believed in Natural Horsemanship, you would set them all free in herds in the fields, as that is the only Natural thing they understand, no ropes, no carrot sticks, they won't bite or kick just natural.

 

[ddd]

The first (and only) time I went to see Monty Roberts had heard so much hype about him that I was really looking forward to it and went with an open mind ready to learn and enjoy.

I was horrified, those poor horses in a round pen, chased round and then backed as quickly as possible. Why?. If this wasn't bad enough he then asked the audience to time each one and by the fourth was trying to do it quicker than the one before. Why? Someone earlier said this is only on demos and he takes more time at home, well if that is the case why show on a demo where people have gone to see his methods something he does not do at home.

Why not show 4 different horses at each stage of the backing process. A friend of mine had leant her horse, it was horse no 3, so had to be done quicker than 1 and 2, it was backed and ridden in 19 minutes! Why? the next day it was so truamatised it had to be started again and get its confidence in humans back.

I think Monty has a lot to offer but I could never go to a demo again as I would not be a witness to this sort of backing again.

I beleive in Natural Horsemanship but not of this kind. I have sent horses to Richard Maxwell and have seen Michael Pease and they are excellent but you can keep the rest they just give NH a bad name.

 

[clipclop]

I enjoy watching all methods of training. I learn something from them all even if I don't like the whole product. Even if what I learn is "I don't think that suits my guys".

I don't think there is any one formula to suit all horses. You have to keep adding to your toolbox and use what you think is appropriate at that time with that horse.