Navicular/soft tissue changes and bar shoes - what are your thoughts/experiences?

[Pale Rider]

TPO, quite a brave post, but one which is heartwarming. Lightbulb moments can sometimes be hard to deal with, I know.

Currently, three separate people who live close to me are going through the pain of a navicular diagnosis. There is only one equine practice in the area, they have prescribed bar shoes and all the usual traditional remedies. They have advised that the prognosis isn't good and the owners should prepare to make the decision.

We have given lots of information and where to get more on barefoot, Rockley Farm, Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey and Tomas Teskey amongst others.

Unfortunately, these horses will, I feel, end up being shot. The owners look upon barefoot akin to black magic and are sceptical of anything that doesn't come from their specialist equine vets.

'You can take someone to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.'

 

[amandap]

I'm so sorry for your pain TPO and sadly I have read of others including myself in the same or similar situation. We can't change the past but we can change the future so try to take comfort in the things you have learned and how this will help you in the future.x

I feel so very strongly that it's about time the traditional treatment rationale by vets etc. is changed, it mostly seems to follow the same pattern, more 'support' and wedging so the horse can function but so often, eventually the support that can be devised by humans comes to a very sad end. Wake up and smell the coffee for horses' sake! The more hooves are 'protected' by clamping and abnormal angle changing the weaker they get!

Needed to get that off my chest.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I'd give anything for my time over. A chance to fix the root cause and not mask it.

structure!

Love your post and have quoted the above sentence as it's exactly how I feel. I still think of horses from 15 years ago who had to endure vets and farriers 'forcing' horses to be shod in all manner of heart bar shoes and wedges. In truth, they were probably doing what they thought to be the best thing at the time and our knowledge and understanding has come on so much since then.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

after an MRI at leahurst the vet there recommended egg bars, .

Likewise and I just flat refused. Box rest and remedial shoeing is their go-to response.

 

[fairyclare]

I am having the same battle with my vet at the moment, he has given my girl the all clear to be ridden again but wants the shoes and pads to stay on, I want them off.
She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....

 

[cptrayes]

Likewise and I just flat refused. Box rest and remedial shoeing is their go-to response.

As, it seems is their ' poor prognosis' - a 20% chance of ever returning to work given to a horse I used to own who was back in full work after eight weeks of a barefoot rehab. The horse was already barefoot but had been allowed to grow a 'shoe' of horn.

 

[amandap]

She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....

Why tip the pedal bone then? Whats wrong with a normal hoof angle and comfortable exercize using pads and boots if required?

I wish you the best.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I feel like I'm going to ask the dumbest questions ever... but here we go anyway...

Why are Vets and Farriers so keen on remedial shoeing if it doesn't work in the majority of cases?

Plus, are there any proper scientific studies showing that remedial shoeing helps 'navicular'?

 

[amandap]

I think it's a great and fundamental question Faracat. I certainly don't know but it is what they are taught and what is traditionally used. I'm behind you asking the research question, it's been discussed before and not much was sited except small, short term studies if my memory is correct.
The research is something that could, in part, be done in retrospect from records I would have thought.

ps. fairyclare,I made an assumption your vet meant wedged pads with my pedal bone comment. Apols if that isn't correct.

 

[Leg_end]

Faracat, I think its because it is what they were taught and some are so blinkered that they don't think there is any other way. My vet is fantastic, he supported me although he wasn't entirely convinced that BF would make a difference, he was interested but wary. He was already spreading the word before B came home from Rockley and now has his third referral there (with 5/6 others talking about it). Buddy only came home in Feb

It makes me sad that some people are so rigid in their thinking - I had a really tough time with people wanting me to fail and being incredibly negative (and almost disappointed) when things improved. I understand that it is a massive culture shift and definately not the norm but I still don't understand why it is viewed with such distate from some. I don't go around belittling people who choose to shoe their horses (even if I look at them and cringe) so I don't know why people think its ok to be so vocal about my choice..

Apologies OP - rant over

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I understand, but I'm beginning to feel that traditional hoofcare is stuck in the days of cupping and leeches. I know that Bracy Clark's research was dismissed at the time, but 200 years later and not much has moved on.

Hell, lets ask another dumb question - has any proper research been done that shows the benefits of shoeing a healthy hoof with a normal shoe?

 

[fairyclare]

ps. fairyclare,I made an assumption your vet meant wedged pads with my pedal bone comment. Apols if that isn't correct.

When I first read your comment I thought WTF, then I read this and re read my post - I did not explain myself very well.
She currently has plain pads on with a raised from area, no wedges.

I am 99% sure the shoes are coming off, the more I read the more I am bemused by this blinkered view of the vets and farriers.
I will talk to my farrier before I decided 100% but unless he has something amazing to say to change my mind they are coming off

 

[PoppyAnderson]

The majority of people I know continue to show their horses and view barefoot to be akin to lentil weaving. It's still 'out there' as a preferred option and if it wasn't for this forum, I'd probably still be of the same mindset. It's the single biggest benefit I've taken from this forum and an so grateful for the experts on here who continue to offer their advice. I've found far less resistance from farriers than vets interestingly. Never once had a farrier encourage me to put shoes on, which is more than I can say for vets and others, who believe shoeing is the only option.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Wow Poppy, my experience is the same. This forum has made a huge difference for me too. My farrier has also been very supportive on bare.

Terri

 

[abailey]

Not had time to read the whole thread but a big thumbs up for barefoot (especially as most authorities on heart bars/pads/tildren etc will tell you that you may only get a couple of sounds years as this route is not a fix just a bandaid).....my mare (TB) was diagnosed with navicular last September and I , against veterinary advice, went barefoot. Its been a long process and it really did take a while before she was comfortable but we are now going fantastically. I strongly believe that most folks whose horses 'can't go barefoot' basically cave to early as, understandably, can't bare to see their horses uncomfortable or aren't willing to lose a years competing, boots will usually make them comfortable enough to do a little work initially.
We've been jumping at home, out xc schooling and now ready to go out competing. Its diet, diet, diet ..my girl hasn't seen a blade of grass since last year and has never looked better (and of course a good trimmer and possibly boots initially!) but she's moving better than she ever did......
Good luck x

 

[abailey]

TPO, quite a brave post, but one which is heartwarming. Lightbulb moments can sometimes be hard to deal with, I know.

Currently, three separate people who live close to me are going through the pain of a navicular diagnosis. There is only one equine practice in the area, they have prescribed bar shoes and all the usual traditional remedies. They have advised that the prognosis isn't good and the owners should prepare to make the decision.

We have given lots of information and where to get more on barefoot, Rockley Farm, Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey and Tomas Teskey amongst others.

Unfortunately, these horses will, I feel, end up being shot. The owners look upon barefoot akin to black magic and are sceptical of anything that doesn't come from their specialist equine vets.

'You can take someone to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.'

It's very sad, isn't it? I've always had my horses shod and certainly would have considered myself very skeptical when i first went barefoot but I'll never shoe another horse (I have 2 youngsters that will benefit from this ). It is good news though that more and more folks are willing to see sense. I have a livery on my yard that has seen the results with my mare and she is now barefoot too and thriving x

 

[Copperpot]

I have been informed by my farrier today that he wants graduated heart bars on my horses back feet with some kind of rubber filling in them. £220 a set! Horse has been unshod behind for 8 months now. He is having his hocks injected again next week. Farrier is happy not to do this but having seen the x rays he said it may help get his pedal bone back where it should be. I was hoping he could unshod behind. His feet aren't that bad behind, he does have front shoes on. I feel when he starts walking work again his hind feet may improve as he's only been in the field the last 8 months.

 

[Copperpot]

That should say my vet wants my farrier! It wasn't farriers idea!

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I have been informed by my farrier today that he wants graduated heart bars on my horses back feet with some kind of rubber filling in them. £220 a set! Horse has been unshod behind for 8 months now. He is having his hocks injected again next week. Farrier is happy not to do this but having seen the x rays he said it may help get his pedal bone back where it should be. I was hoping he could unshod behind. His feet aren't that bad behind, he does have front shoes on. I feel when he starts walking work again his hind feet may improve as he's only been in the field the last 8 months.

Those are what my horse had (think they are called Jim Blurton or something - well he made them!!). I hated seeing her in them and she hated being in them. They are hugely expensive and the gel stuff is too. Don't do it!!! My vet had a load of science talk for me as to why it would work but then I rang a farrier friend who contradicted everything vet said!!

 

[Copperpot]

I don't know what to do for the best he needs to live out 24/7 for his djd of the hocks. We have a lot of grass. He's fed a handful if happy hoof just to put his Cortaflex in. He's never footy behind and is happy to walk over the stones the times I do bring over for a groom. Despite being unshod behind for 8 months his frogs are still small and fairly flat. Will road walking in hand help to stimulate them? In an ideal world I feel he would need no shoes as he has a few issues and his feet could grow odd to balance him out all over. I am setting up a fatty trail this weekend so he has to walk round the outside of the field to get him moving more.

 

[catherine22]

Those are what my horse had (think they are called Jim Blurton or something - well he made them!!). I hated seeing her in them and she hated being in them. They are hugely expensive and the gel stuff is too. Don't do it!!! My vet had a load of science talk for me as to why it would work but then I rang a farrier friend who contradicted everything vet said!!

My horse has the jim blurton graduated bar shoes in front (no gel stuff now tho as it was too slippy) and he's really happy in them (and normal shoes + wedges behind) this was the vets idea but the farrier agrees it works for him as he has such an upright confirmation. When his shoes (and wedges) come off, even on soft ground, to be shod he's noticably uncomfortable. We're just coming up to 2 years in them, my other horses are barefoot (and one is an in work TB who has always been shod) so I have seen it works but as at the moment the shoes are working I'm not going to change it, however eventually I may have to. He has coffin joint djd and hock spavins, both bilaterally.

 

[Copperpot]

Mine is like that in front when being shod, noticeably uncomfortable standing on hard ground with no shoes. Behind he is fine. But the vet thinks these shoes will help his hock arthritis and the fact that his pedal bones aren't at the best angle. He did say he may not need them forever and if he does get them and its a big if, I hope not at that price :0

 

[catherine22]

Mine's pedal bones are flat at best (I think in front they are still reversly rotated) last xrayed in October 12.
A set currently of the graduated bar shoes in front and normal shoes and wedges behind are £120 every 4 weeks, we were on the graduated bars in front with equipak (the gel filling) and graduated bars behind which was £220 every 4 weeks :-0

 

[jaimep]

Always ask the expert in front of you; vet, farrier, barefoot trimmer, EP whoever a few simple questions e.g.:-

What do they think the problem is?

Why do they think that?

What do they recommend to fix it?

How will their recommendation address the problem?

Sit back and listen to the answers and apply common sense.

Simples...



Do not be fobbed off with vague answers like "the foot needs more support" (what does that mean? the ground supports the horse, how does support fix navicular for example)

 

[Copperpot]

That's it equipak! £220.89 my farrier said. Didn't know it would be every 4 weeks thou :0

 

[Pale Rider]

My word Copperpot, that's alot of money for something that won't cure the problem just hide symptoms until it's so bad shooting is the only answer. Mind you being cynical, vets and farriers are like the US health system. Managed illness, no profit in healthy horses.

 

[Copperpot]

I wouldn't mind the money if I thought it would help him. But it's not what I want for him. Although his hinds aren't great examples of feet, I feel they look better than when he was shod. My farrier has been honest and said it will end up making his heels contract more in the long run. Although it may help his other issues. I think I am going to leave him without shoes behind. And work on improving the foot he has by walking him out in hand and under saddle after his hocks have been injected/ Tildren. I am thinking of saving up and packing him off to Rockley Farm to have a bash and getting his fronts off too. He has some major event lines on front feet. I posted pics a while ago. They were off end of last year but when the ground went hard he was very footy, so I relented and put them back on.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

When his shoes (and wedges) come off, even on soft ground, to be shod he's noticably uncomfortable. .

Mine is like that in front when being shod, noticeably uncomfortable standing on hard ground with no shoes.

Sorry I'm asking questions again.

Surely if the horse is uncomfortable even just having the shoes off during the shoeing process, that indicates that the hooves are in a bad way?

Many people on here who've gone through terrible times with their horse's hooves have commented that the horses who 'need' shoes the most, are the very ones that need to be out of them the most.

 

[Pale Rider]

That's true Faracat, if a horse is lame unshod, shoeing won't make him sound. He's still lame, you just can't see it.

 

[Copperpot]

Mine is fine with no shoes on soft ground. Just in front on hard/stony ground. At the moment I am not in a position and neither is he to have fronts off. I would need to change the set up completely where he lives. I have started to do this, but it will take time and money unfortunately.