Navicular/soft tissue changes and bar shoes - what are your thoughts/experiences?

[Meowy Catkin]

I wasn't having a go at you CP - you are obviously trying to work out the best way forward for your horse and sadly money, facilities etc... do restrict the options available to us.

I know that I was very lucky as when the shoes came off my mare's very unhealthy hooves she was sound on grass, tarmac, concrete and small stones straight away.


ETA - Going back to the horse I originally started this thread about. He is still uncomfortable walking downhill. I know that he's only had the bar shoes on for a short while, but he is on bute too.

 

[Copperpot]

Oh no Faracat, i didn't think you were sorry didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were.

Sorry I have rather hijacked this thread with my worries!!

 

[Wagtail]

That's it equipak! £220.89 my farrier said. Didn't know it would be every 4 weeks thou :0

My farrier only charges £70 for two feet shod with equipak.

 

[Copperpot]

Yes the Equi pack is £80, then the cost of the heart bar shoes for hind feet plus cost of normal shoes for the front feet.

 

[WellyBaggins]

I only paid £30 plus vat for the equipak, £138 for bars and equipak in front, normal behind, with vat

 

[Copperpot]

It's not really the cost of it that worries me, more the implications on his long term health/soundness in these shoes.

 

[amandap]

When I first read your comment I thought WTF, then I read this and re read my post - I did not explain myself very well.
She currently has plain pads on with a raised from area, no wedges.

Yes,sorry, I was much less clear than you. lol
I still had wedges in my head following my rant.

The more the back of the hoof is lifted for 'protection' the more the pedal bone angle is impacted. This doesn't seem to come into the equation from where I'm sitting.

 

[Brightbay]

It's not really the cost of it that worries me, more the implications on his long term health/soundness in these shoes.

First of all, sorry Faracat, but your own fault for starting a really interesting discussion I hope you got something useful from it to pass to your friend!

Copperpot, my experience (and it's just that, not a study examining many horses) is that the negative pedal bone angled hinds came about because of tender/sore fronts. The horse stood consistently very slightly under behind, to take as much weight off the fronts as possible. So slightly after the fronts were sore, the hinds started to go downhill too.

Once the fronts improved, the way the horse stood changed, and a tiny trim of the toes on the hinds across two trim cycles, and they changed completely in a positive way.

So there's maybe a chance that there's something similar going on with your horse? Sort the fronts out, the hinds will sort themselves

 

[TwoStroke]

To add to the discussion of negatively angled pedal bones... A horse of mine had these purely due to poorly developed caudal hooves. Weak frog, puny lateral cartilages and digital cushion, under run heels. Once these improved, the pedal bone sat at a much better angle.

 

[Copperpot]

Two stroke how did you improve these? With shoes or another way?

Brightbay that sounds interesting. I will have to speak to my farrier and see how we can improve fronts. The vet seems to think he's been loading the front end as his hocks were sore. He has large side bone in front left foot too.

All in all, four new legs and feet would be a better option

 

[TwoStroke]

Barefoot for me as well. I found it was a case of getting the diet sorted (easier said than done!) then miles and miles and miles of hacking barefoot. The fronts improved much faster than the hinds. Only once the fronts were half decent did the hinds start to follow.

This horse's feet are prone to falling apart (due to gut problems & sugar sensitivity). His feet only really stay on the straight and narrow when he's in work. Not all horses are as hard to manage as he is, though, so don't let that put you off .

 

[Copperpot]

Ha ha. I do feel that mine won't be easy either. The hinds I think will be ok, the fronts will be the issue. I'm putting him on a foot supplement starting today.

The diet will be tough for me too. He needs to live out but we have so much grass I have plan to tackle that thou.

I will have to measure his fronts for boots til they toughen up. Perhaps when he is in work I will start to see improvements

Hock injections are next week so can start hacking him a few days after.

 

[FfionWinnie]

CP sorry if I've misunderstood but if you are intending to go down the BF route and are worried about living out, I have three in work living out. One is a poor doer and does not need restricted grazing, she is doing endurance rides and hacking on stoney ground bare foot. The other two are fatties so they are restricted for that reason, but they all live out 24/7

 

[Copperpot]

That's good to know I am making a fatty track round the field for him hopefully that will keep his weight down. Plus I have bought a muzzle just in case.

 

[ester]

CP mine is a good doer too and was in limited work (due to transitioning/lameness) last summer, a track round our 3 acre field really worked for him .

For the purposes of this thread diagnosis = 'flat' pedal bones (heels underun), possibly coffin joint DJD (no changes seen on xray) and having viewed his landing (badly lateral) suspect poss collateral ligament strain.

Initial treatment eggbars/shoeing with better heel support/breakover and steroid injections into the joint. Although feet looked better after 2 shoeing cycles soundness not really improved when worked. So shoes taken off and trimmer on board with blessing of both vet and farrier.

Sound pretty much ever since although didn't trot for a good while to start . Still sound and back competing.

 

[TwoStroke]

Good luck, copperpot! Sounds like you have a good plan .

 

[Copperpot]

Thanks pea gravel will be going down on the track this week. Took me hours to build it today already have wood chip down, so that will be a few surfaces to help things along

 

[TwoStroke]

Wow, a proper track, then - Sounds fab! I'm very jealous .

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thanks pea gravel will be going down on the track this week. Took me hours to build it today already have wood chip down, so that will be a few surfaces to help things along

Think you will be fine!! Well done for making so much effort!

 

[Heelfirst]

I really do find it amazing that anyone in either the veterinary or farrier profession are still recommending egg bars or graduated shoes.
Egg bars will give a small amount of caudal support but encourage a central prolapse thus putting the sole under more pressure, they will however often show an improvement when first fitted, but long term they are in my opinion a disaster!
Hart bars on the other hand when fitted well can ‘sometimes’ be a benefit.
Any wedging of the heel is encouraging it to hit the ground first ( you in fact are lowering the heel to the ground not raising it)
I will admit that esthetical the foot can look better but if you look at the underside of any wedged heeled shoe when it is removed you will notice the heels are showing more wear due to the extra compression.
Once again the feet may look better , but long term they create more problems than they treat.
When a referral vet would ask me to fit them I always declined but did offer to fit longer shoes at the heel which gave support without causing strain on the structural tissue.
All the above are a ‘quick fit treatment, for something that has often taken quite a time to wreck!!
Therefore I now would always encourage a barefoot approach even if the owner wishes to go back to having a shod horse.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

HF - Thanks for explaining that.

 

[Copperpot]

In that case HF I am glad I decided against them! My farrier did say they would cause more problems than they would fix.

 

[Heelfirst]

Hang on to that farrier!!

 

[star]

So, how come you normally want a horse to land heel first but not if it's wearing wedges?

My vet recommended wedges for mine which I went with against mine and my farrier's better judgement and they lasted all of 6weeks before I was begging to get them off him. Now back in normal shoes until they think of what they want to try next. He's not lame and nothing on his MRI so I dont want to take him barefoot right now although may do over the winter once the event season is over. Just need to try and get his HPA better. He's off to see Liphook's remedial farrier in 2wks time - dont like to think what expensive things they will suggest next.

 

[Heelfirst]

This might explain it better
http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html

 

[star]

ok - that was an interesting website - thanks. So the shod hoof should land flat - is that in all gaits?

 

[Heelfirst]

Either toe or heel first in the shod horse seems to lead to unwanted concussion

 

[fairyclare]

I am having the same battle with my vet at the moment, he has given my girl the all clear to be ridden again but wants the shoes and pads to stay on, I want them off.
She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....

Update - the shoes came off! Farrier agreed with me re the pads and was supportive of going down the BF route. He did not trim too much so she has some horn there to stop her getting too footie. Because the pads had made the frogs all squishy and horrid he did have to par away more than I wanted but he has left as much as he could.

Happy horse, happy me

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Great news! Let us know how it goes.